WILDFIRE Posted January 20 Author Share Posted January 20 (edited) @Acid: Yes I think when the mercs move their head a little, blink with their eyes and also move their mouth it would give the game so much more life. Also in the conversation screen when they move the body, mouth and eyes it would be so much more immersive. I dont know if they dont do it because you can see it on the 3D models faces already in the game or if the portraits are not finished. Also in the hire screen of JA2 it has so much charm and atmosphere when the screen flickers and the mercs faces are animated and talk directly to you. Edited January 20 by WILDFIRE 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acid Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 They don't have to be tied to the 3d model (back in action), just a 2d image that's animated and reacts when injured or talking. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acid Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 They don't have to be tied to the 3d model (back in action), just a 2d image that's animated and reacts when injured or talking. But I can understand why they would want the in game model face to look like the portrait, so it matches, maybe the 3d model isn't good enough. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acid Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 Why is it I can't delete my post on this forum? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solaris_Wave Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 Animated 3D model portraits will undoubtedly be harder to create than 2D portraits and if the developers went with 2D portraits, would they look out of place with the newer game's 3D engine or with certain people's expectations (namely people who aren't longterm fans of JA2)? I know it wouldn't bother many of us, but would reviewers hold it as a negative mark against the game, even if it would be considered petty? That said, animated portraits make a lot of difference in creating a personality. I recently played Aliens: Fireteam Elite and while the 3D character models are nicely detailed and move around a little, they have no expressions or mouth movements when talking. It looks odd. It isn't a deal breaker but it is something that cheapens the whole experience, and the product itself. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WILDFIRE Posted January 22 Author Share Posted January 22 I mean with JA3 we talk about the ambition to create a true successor to JA1,2 and one big key element of this series are the animated faces that gave the mercs life. Maybe the 3D models in JA3 have already expressions on their face, I dont know. That would explain the missing animated portraits, because maybe both would be too much work or too distracting. But the mercs and NPCs need something. Static pictures and static 3D models cant transport the emotions. I know animated portraits are a lot of work but we are in 2023 and JA2 did that over 20 years ago so there is no excuse when you want to create a real successor. That is why all the other games after JA2 failed, because no one could recreate the true nature, atmosphere and charm that made JA2 what it is today. An outstanding masterpiece that is still unmatched to this day. Animated portraits or animated 3D faces are a must have feature. I am tired to write this because I did that in all the other JA projects that came after JA2 and no one did that and so they failed to create something special that was worthy of the JA name. If you take a huge project like this serious you have to know that this takes a lot of work. A half baked game where a key element is missing will never recreate the same vibe that we all love. The more the mercs feel alive and lifelike the more I care about them and the more I feel like I operate in a believable world where I control a real squad through tough times. Taking the emotions of your mercs with you from the beginning to the end that is what makes JA2 special. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acid Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 The talking heads were a cool feature in JA1/2 but I think its got something to do with the move to 3d, it doesn't look as good up close so they chose a fixed 2d image. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WILDFIRE Posted January 22 Author Share Posted January 22 Wanted to add that some projects like BIA and Rage surely had animated portraits but they looked really bad and were overall no real big successors to JA2. I can not imagine that with todays software and tech it is so hard to implement good looking animated portraits. In the conversation screen or tactical map (hire screen) for example you cant even see the 3D world. So there is no distraction only the 2D images. That the mercs move their head, mouth and body a little bit and that the eyes blink cant be to hard to do. Even JA1 did that! But I surely would love to see the animated portraits or the expressions on the 3D faces of the models also on the battlefield. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoboNocturno Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 On 1/22/2023 at 2:34 AM, WILDFIRE said: I mean with JA3 we talk about the ambition to create a true successor to JA1,2 and one big key element of this series are the animated faces that gave the mercs life. Maybe the 3D models in JA3 have already expressions on their face, I dont know. That would explain the missing animated portraits, because maybe both would be too much work or too distracting. But the mercs and NPCs need something. Static pictures and static 3D models cant transport the emotions. I know animated portraits are a lot of work but we are in 2023 and JA2 did that over 20 years ago so there is no excuse when you want to create a real successor. That is why all the other games after JA2 failed, because no one could recreate the true nature, atmosphere and charm that made JA2 what it is today. An outstanding masterpiece that is still unmatched to this day. Animated portraits or animated 3D faces are a must have feature. I am tired to write this because I did that in all the other JA projects that came after JA2 and no one did that and so they failed to create something special that was worthy of the JA name. If you take a huge project like this serious you have to know that this takes a lot of work. A half baked game where a key element is missing will never recreate the same vibe that we all love. The more the mercs feel alive and lifelike the more I care about them and the more I feel like I operate in a believable world where I control a real squad through tough times. Taking the emotions of your mercs with you from the beginning to the end that is what makes JA2 special. I can seriously leave %100 my signature about this comment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoboNocturno Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 17 hours ago, WILDFIRE said: Wanted to add that some projects like BIA and Rage surely had animated portraits but they looked really bad and were overall no real big successors to JA2. I can not imagine that with todays software and tech it is so hard to implement good looking animated portraits. In the conversation screen or tactical map (hire screen) for example you cant even see the 3D world. So there is no distraction only the 2D images. That the mercs move their head, mouth and body a little bit and that the eyes blink cant be to hard to do. Even JA1 did that! But I surely would love to see the animated portraits or the expressions on the 3D faces of the models also on the battlefield. Oh yes, they should express their emotions very well, happy (by victory & story related),sad (when mercs die & story related),angry (by merc confusion and sector lost),tired (when you keep your merc restless),fear (by shocked moments or sudden ambush) etc expressions should surely be there. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solaris_Wave Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 I never experienced it when I played JA2 but has anybody experienced any situation where a merc flat out quits, regardless of their contract, due to thinking that the situation is far too hazardous and stupid for them to continue? I am wondering if they would quit, thinking that the whole campaign hasn't been thought out well enough by their employer (i.e. you) and they are pointlessly risking their life due to lack of money, manpower, decent equipment, poor tactics and seeing fellow mercs die? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WILDFIRE Posted January 26 Author Share Posted January 26 I really hope that the mercs will react to their environments and circumstances. If they dont like the situation (wounded, dispute, anger, fear) they should leave or quit if it fits the characters background. The brave legendary mercs fight to the end while the rookies and cheaper mercs tend to leave if the fight gets too tough. What I also would like to see are mercs who quit if they feel like no one respects them or if the salary is not enough and that they can also fight for the enemies later in the game. That would be a great surprise factor. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alfius Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 Is Lynx be in JA3? My favorite merc) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wigen Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 2 minutes ago, alfius said: Is Lynx be in JA3? My favorite merc) It's still unknown. We didn't get to know the entire list of mercenaries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alfius Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 I've made some research, and wrote down the list of mercs from the videos JA3. "*" marced ones are from previos JA (AIM). Then I created a panorama image from their potraits. If you know someone else - write here and I add them to the panorama. MB someone already has this job done, but I don't see it. Pardon my poor English * Barry (Unger) * Blood (Keith "Blood" Hanson) * Buns (Monica "Buns" Sondergaard) * Dr.Q (Dr. Q. Huaong) Fauda * Fidel (Fidel Dahan) Granty * Grizzly (Steve "Grizzly" Bornell) * Hitman (Frank "Hitman" Hennessy) * Ice (Ice Williams) * Igor (Igor Dolvich) * Ivan (Ivan Dolvich) Livewire * Meltdown (Norma "Meltdown" Jessop) * MD (Dr. Michael "MD" Dawson) * Nails (Edgar "Nails" Smorth) * Raider (Ron "Raider" Higgens) * Raven (Charlene "Raven" Higgens) * Red (Ernie "Red" Spragg) * Steroid (Bobby "Steroid" Gontarski) * Tex (Tex R. Colburn) * Thor (Thor Kaufman) * Vicki (Victoria "Vicki" Waters) * Wolf (Peter "Wolf" Sanderson) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alfius Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 5 minutes ago, alfius said: I've made some research, and wrote down the list of mercs from the videos JA3. "*" marced ones are from previos JA (AIM). Then I created a panorama image from their potraits. If you know someone else - write here and I add them to the panorama. MB someone already has this job done, but I don't see it. Pardon my poor English * Barry (Unger) * Blood (Keith "Blood" Hanson) * Buns (Monica "Buns" Sondergaard) * Dr.Q (Dr. Q. Huaong) Fauda * Fidel (Fidel Dahan) Granty * Grizzly (Steve "Grizzly" Bornell) * Hitman (Frank "Hitman" Hennessy) * Ice (Ice Williams) * Igor (Igor Dolvich) * Ivan (Ivan Dolvich) Livewire * Meltdown (Norma "Meltdown" Jessop) * MD (Dr. Michael "MD" Dawson) * Nails (Edgar "Nails" Smorth) * Raider (Ron "Raider" Higgens) * Raven (Charlene "Raven" Higgens) * Red (Ernie "Red" Spragg) * Steroid (Bobby "Steroid" Gontarski) * Tex (Tex R. Colburn) * Thor (Thor Kaufman) * Vicki (Victoria "Vicki" Waters) * Wolf (Peter "Wolf" Sanderson) Poor qality, pardon. Here is cutted in 3 files 4 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WILDFIRE Posted February 2 Author Share Posted February 2 @alfius : Thank you for the nice overview. The portraits that I really like are Wolf, Grizzly, Red, Blood, Raven, Raider, Ivan and Meltdown. With the rest I have mixed feelings. They are good but can be improved. Hitmans purple shirt is maybe a bit too much and is it just me or do Ice and MD look younger? Also I am not a fan of Nails shorter hair. His long hair is so unique and classic. Now he looks really generic. Vicky, Steroid and Thor are too cartoony for my taste but I am not sure, because we have not seen much of these characters. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solaris_Wave Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 (edited) Looking at the portraits again, I think most of them are very good. I think the issue I have and maybe others have, is the choice of clothes they are wearing. The majority of the mercs look fine in terms of facial appearance. The clothes they are wearing is what sometimes gives them a cartoony look, or makes them look as if they are going for a casual night out on a cruise ship. Also, looking at the nature of the portraits, I am not sure how they could be animated. They are drawn, rather than rendered, it seems. Unlike the days of JA2, you are not needing to alter a few pixels here and there to change eyebrow positions, make the eyes blink and the mouth move. Edited February 2 by Solaris_Wave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alfius Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 (edited) 5 hours ago, WILDFIRE said: @alfius : Thank you for the nice overview. You are welcome! I think most of the portraits are good, except Viki. Why is she so unseriouse? She is a merc, not a narc. JA always had some humor, but never clowns. Edited February 2 by alfius Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alfius Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 1 hour ago, Solaris_Wave said: Also, looking at the nature of the portraits, I am not sure how they could be animated. They are drawn, rather than rendered, it seems. Unlike the days of JA2, you are not needing to alter a few pixels here and there to change eyebrow positions, make the eyes blink and the mouth move. What is anmation for? The portraits always were merc's photo from AIM portfolio. Photos don't blink) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solaris_Wave Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 They used to use the same portrait and animate them during conversations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WILDFIRE Posted February 2 Author Share Posted February 2 (edited) That some mercs had so good and funny jokes while their facial expressions stayed ice cold and serious was one of the best gaming experiences I ever had. Nothing comes close, the dark humor was outstanding. The mercs blinked with their eyes and the whole face was animated. That is why I love JA2 so much. Its so unique, I mean where do you get a bunch of crazy mercenaries who kill some bad guys while they use humorous jokes that are better than most of the comedies out there? Edited February 2 by WILDFIRE 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alfius Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 2 hours ago, Solaris_Wave said: They used to use the same portrait and animate them during conversations. Ouh, that is what you mean. Yah, I don't think that is important, but we'll see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WILDFIRE Posted February 4 Author Share Posted February 4 @alfius: For me the animated portraits are very important, because they gave the mercs life and atmosphere so that you could easily build a bond with them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solaris_Wave Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 While I agree that animated portraits would be far superior, I am thinking that with the current portraits it wouldn't be possible. They look hand drawn and unless they switched to a different but fairly similar looking rendered model, it isn't possible. If they were hand drawn and animated, it would require lots of slightly adjusted stills (or frames) to build up an animation. Basically, the old fashioned way. When you see a lot of drawn portrait art integrated into a game these days, they often have a few different looks and then alternate between them, jumping from one expression to the other. They might flip it and rotate the face slightly back and forth. They might even just make the eyes blink to give some life. Actual animated characters these days though do tend to be rendered 3D models. The days of animating 2D pixel faces is really as old as JA2 and unless a modern game deliberately goes for pixel art (or deliberately plain faces to produce different expressions from), it doesn't feature these days. Throughout the 1990s, it was more common as the resolutions were much lower and you would have an easier time of slightly adjusting some pixels to move the eyebrows, eyes and mouth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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