DevDiary 1 - Game Vision

[OscarBravoRomeo]

SIG is getting sued right now for their new pistol going off without any help from the trigger. Never underestimate the twitchiness of firearms

[Grim]

9 hours ago, Haemimont_Boian said:

One popular topic of discussion in the design team is "should you be able to miss with a firearm at point-blank range in a turn-based tactical game?" Currently this is possible in JA3, as it was in JA2, however you would be surprised how many people find it unrealistic due to their own expectations. What do you think?

I guess 'point blank miss with a ranged weapon' would make sense.
Realistic, because people are not freezed like in turn based games when they fight, and it is difficult to aim at a moving target especially when it's super close and menacing.
Gameplay wise, it can be super infuriating, but on the other hand, if you want to implement close combat, it is mandatory, else you end up with ranged weapons way superior, and all the action points spent to move in + hit + expose not worth it. In JA2 melee already was etremely inefficient, as you ended up your turn being just in front of your melee victim with 0AP and him ready to shoot you with the best odds and all his actions points of the turn.

Edited December 5, 2022 by Grim

[Solaris_Wave]

19 hours ago, Haemimont_Boian said:

Hi Solaris_Wave,

Even if we don't react and reply in all threads, rest assured that we are reading everything! I just want to limit the discussions I engage in a bit in order to get other work done 🙂

There is a fine line between realism and gameplay demands in every game. For example, while the weapons in JA2 (and even more so in 1.13) felt very realistic, one could argue that their "effective combat ranges" weren't due to the size of the maps. Or that you shouldn't survive a headshot with a firearm as often as you did in JA2... Or that the damage should be more lethal in general...

As stated in the DevDiary, we want our combat to "feel" as realistic as the combat in JA2 felt and we are always evaluating the design and balance issues from this perspective. That being said, it is not the only possible perspective - individual expectations for realism in specific situation vary and the gameplay demands sometimes present difficult choices before us. You will be surprised how many design discussions we had in which two "gun nuts" on the team didn't quickly agree about which approach will be more realistic or when we had to balance gameplay considerations, realities of development and realism against each other...

For these reasons, while I think JA3 is more realistic than almost all tactical games out there, even than JA2 in some aspects, I am certain some specifics will clash with individual expectations as well.

One popular topic of discussion in the design team is "should you be able to miss with a firearm at point-blank range in a turn-based tactical game?" Currently this is possible in JA3, as it was in JA2, however you would be surprised how many people find it unrealistic due to their own expectations. What do you think?

Thanks for the reply, @Haemimont_Boian, I'm sure your other work (i.e. working on JA3) is more important! 😉

When I created my Weapon Characteristics thread, I tried to think of things that could be added to a game in terms of scale, numbers or percentages. How would this gun compare to that gun from a scale of 0-100 in a particular category? I have done some game mods in the past, with my most extensive work being for SWAT 3, back in the day (under a different alias). I also did a private mod of JA2, just for myself. The flexibility of JA2 was actually more constrictive than I thought, when it came to balancing certain guns (I remember the H&K G11 being hard to do because of its vastly different rates of fire between burst and full-auto).

The main drive for my Weapon thread was how developers for JA3, such as yourself, would be able to read it and then put those considerations into the game. It had to be done from a game development point of view and not just a firearms enthusiast. There are so many variables with real firearms, the cartridges and calibres, that results are never fixed. As an example, one calibre might be better than another for certain things, but not others. However, that can change depending on what gun it is fired from, what brand it is, what weight it is, what the quality of the ammunition is, what the wind is like, what angle the bullet hits, what material or part of the body it hits, and so on. Unless a game is programmed to allow for a little randomness in several different categories, it is probably expecting fixed numbers. I felt it was important to generalise as much as possible in my thread because I didn't know what your team would actually be putting into the game.

 

As for the question of whether you should possibly miss at point-blank range, I would say that yes, it should happen but the game engine should allow or calculate from certain factors:

1) Is the target sprinting? There should definitely be a difference in movement and a character or enemy should be able to particularly 'sprint'. When sprinting, they can move more spaces in a single turn at a greater cost of fatigue. They cannot fire any weapons because they are too busy running as fast as they can. If sprinting, there is a penalty to hit them, from any range. If you were trying to hit a target that was farther away and sprinting, it would still be as difficult as trying to hit someone that is close to you and your eyes and reactions are trying to compensate.

Like I mentioned in my thread, a sprinting 'tag' would cause a to-hit penalty and would create a greater reason to fire full automatic or a burst, to increase chances. Two of my biggest criticisms of JA2 was that body armour was too strong, causing several hits to be required, even to the head; and that semi-auto fire was always better than full auto. Semi-auto fire was more accurate, allowed for definite head shots (which you would nearly always choose to kill the enemy as quickly as possible) and there didn't seem to be any penalty to firing one bullet at someone, whatever their range and whatever they were doing. You would only choose full-auto if you could kill someone in one turn because they were only a few spaces away. There was no real suppression mechanic to make it worthwhile and trying to kill several enemies close together never really worked due to how much damage the body armour could absorb.

 

2) Is the target moving perpendicular to you? Is there any way this could be programmed into the game so that such a thing would be recognised? If someone is moving at a right-angle to the shooter, it should be harder to hit them than if they were moving directly towards or away from the shooter. Now imagine sprinting at a right-angle to the shooter (e.g. from one side to the other). That would be hard to hit with a single bullet.

3) Are you getting Opportunity Fire during the enemy turn? Even if on overwatch, you might be surprised by an enemy dashing out from somewhere. Maybe there could be a slight penalty to hit if you are using Opportunity Fire. Aiming at specific body parts should definitely be disallowed during Opportunity Fire (and I am not a fan of body part aiming in general unless either looking through a telescopic sight at a stationary or slow moving target, or during your own turn, the target is up close, allowing you to go for headshots).

4) Is your weapon a shotgun with buckshot loaded? That should increase your chances of getting a hit. Hopefully, each individual pellet is calculated. Buckshot increases the likelihood of a hit but those pellets only really do a lot of damage if lots of them hit your target. I have seen games in the past calculate even one pellet as maximum damage.

5) Is your carried firearm more manoeuvrable? A shorter barrel SMG or rifle, or a handgun, is easier to aim at closer things. There should be a bonus to doing so because they are lighter. Handguns and machine-pistols (e.g. short SMGs like a MAC-10) would have the highest bonus. The smaller and/or lighter a weapon, the less action points should be needed to point and fire it. Trying to hit someone at point-blank range would definitely be easier with a pistol or revolver (although I think a Taurus Raging Bull would be pushing it 😆). If these factors are implemented into the game, there will always be a use for handguns and SMGs. They would be a better choice for Close Quarters Battle because they are more manoeuvrable by virtue of their size. They obviously lose out when it comes to range and damage per bullet against armoured and non-armoured body locations (although large calibre handguns would offset that and certain ammo like 5.7x28mm is excellent at penetrating armour (but still weak compared to rifle rounds for damaging the body)).

JA2 made handguns and SMGs redundant as you progressed through the game. They were seen as entry-level weapons that would give way to assault rifles as time went on. Once they showed up, there was no need to use the smaller weapons because there were no penalties or benefits to any class of weapon beyond range and damage per bullet. Hopefully, JA3 will do it differently because such weapons still have their place in the real world, depending on the situation. A backup handgun is definitely a benefit because if your primary gun jams or you need to reload, switching to your pistol is faster.

 

I hope this all helps!

 

Edited December 6, 2022 by Solaris_Wave

[Solaris_Wave]

12 hours ago, OscarBravoRomeo said:

SIG is getting sued right now for their new pistol going off without any help from the trigger. Never underestimate the twitchiness of firearms

SIG have had numerous reported incidents with their P320. These reports have been around for a while now and the last time I read about it, a factory upgrade was seen as 'optional'.

[Haemimont_Boian]

16 hours ago, Hendrix said:

YES, you should be able to miss at point blank range. Shit happens, people stumble, get surprised, scared, adrenaline spikes and simple fuck ups etc. A Mercs experience should reduce the likelihood of it occurring though.

Your thoughts as well as the thoughts of the people farther in the thread are in sync with my own... More importantly, the turn based combat is an abstraction for a real battle - I imagine these people are moving and dashing throughout the battlefield, not staying in place like statues, one might drop down, move unpredictably, unexpectedly push the gun barrel of the other when they are standing so close and so on.

Let's talk more about this when the combat DevDiary happens!

Edited December 6, 2022 by Haemimont_Boian

[Edqar]

On 11/30/2022 at 3:45 PM, THQN Roger said:

Welcome to the first Jagged Alliance 3 DevDiary!...*znips*

Nice, seems you are on top of the subject!

Will there be custom merc creation possibility (own character) like JA2?

I think that makes the game much more deeper when you are in the action "by yourself".

[Hendrix]

3 hours ago, Haemimont_Boian said:

More importantly, the turn based combat is an abstraction for a real battle - I imagine these people are moving and dashing throughout the battlefield, not staying in place like statues, one might drop down, move unpredictably, unexpectedly push the gun barrel of the other when they are standing so close and so on.

👍🏻

[Haemimont_Boian]

3 hours ago, Edqar said:

Will there be custom merc creation possibility (own character) like JA2?

Can't talk about this subject at this point, sorry.

Edit: To clarify, I am not in a position to announce any unannounced features (or their absence), so I might sound like a broken record every time anyone asks me "would X be in the game". I am allowed, however, to elaborate on some details about announced features and especially what we have already talked about in a DevDiary.

Edited December 6, 2022 by Haemimont_Boian

[Wigen]

In my opinion, discussions about individual features in the game will appear on the occasion of subsequent developer diaries.

[Kordanor]

Thanks for your answer regarding the ballistics!

Speaking about turn based being used to simulate real time activities:
(and I agree that you can miss at point blank because everything is moving)

In the trailers we can see that characters mostly have 10-15 Action Points.

Is the assumption correct, that the total AP scale changed? Can you still "keep" some points for the next turn?
Also I assume that with "only" 15 AP, you will not simulate the difference of movement vs shooting anymore, will you?
The Manuals of JA, JA DG and JA2 all basically spend a page on explaining that a fast and a slow person can travel different distances, but shoot the same amount of times, which in JA is reflected in AP for shooting being lower for people will less total AP.
This already led to some weird situations in JA1/2 due to rounding. With 15 AP max, the rounding would be even worse if you keep the system, so I guess you removed that?

[Edqar]

19 hours ago, Haemimont_Boian said:

Can't talk about this subject at this point, sorry.

Edit: To clarify, I am not in a position to announce any unannounced features (or their absence), so I might sound like a broken record every time anyone asks me "would X be in the game". I am allowed, however, to elaborate on some details about announced features and especially what we have already talked about in a DevDiary.

Right, should have known. Hype train is just speeding up 🙂

[Haemimont_Boian]

6 hours ago, Kordanor said:

Thanks for your answer regarding the ballistics!

Speaking about turn based being used to simulate real time activities:
(and I agree that you can miss at point blank because everything is moving)

In the trailers we can see that characters mostly have 10-15 Action Points.

Is the assumption correct, that the total AP scale changed? Can you still "keep" some points for the next turn?
Also I assume that with "only" 15 AP, you will not simulate the difference of movement vs shooting anymore, will you?
The Manuals of JA, JA DG and JA2 all basically spend a page on explaining that a fast and a slow person can travel different distances, but shoot the same amount of times, which in JA is reflected in AP for shooting being lower for people will less total AP.
This already led to some weird situations in JA1/2 due to rounding. With 15 AP max, the rounding would be even worse if you keep the system, so I guess you removed that?

Thanks for the interesting questions. I plan to go more in depth when the combat DevDiary (or possibly DevDiaries?) comes up at a later time but it is good to know what you find interesting in advance and it might impact the content of the said DevDiary.

[Grim]

I second Kordanor's question. I'm quite interested in reading about this subject.

[LoboNocturno]

Finally great to read the first dev diary that we waited ever since.

 

I do agree with most whats writing in here like about the shooting ballistics, game mechanics etc... Hope we will get a good near to realistic combat feeling that will have each time a different exciting outcome.

 

My other thoughts are mainly about cosmetics, like the portraits in game are static as we got used in the previous main games (even in JA1 a game way 30 years ago) were lively, which was giving us a very nice emotion feeling, whenever they were shot, wounded etc... or by dead the skull would show up, hopefully this will be also in JA3.

 

Also some of the characters look has nothing to do with battlefield (not saying every merc should have directly a military look) but at least a lil more suitable look, also to the environment (Grand Chien a African country with mainly hot and humid tropical climate). From all characters so far i like the outfit of Fauda most, Fidel as well (may without his jacket it would be a lil better). So am hoping at least with some customization we can give them a better battlefield look, the different variety of helmets, vests and backpacks should show (if not at all, please try to give us alternative looks as well for each characters, i dont mind even as DLC).

 

Others then the recruitable 40 mercs from AIM or MERC there should be also several other playable characters that we will meet in Gran Chien as RPCs.

 

Less but not least, i know this will hopefully in the combat topic next, if we will also have some named enemies like mid bosses, it would give to the game even a greater flavor and some wild animals as well its a must imo.

 

Gracias still next time....

[Haemimont_Boian]

9 hours ago, LoboNocturno said:

Others then the recruitable 40 mercs from AIM or MERC there should be also several other playable characters that we will meet in Gran Chien as RPCs.

Thanks for your thoughts! I just wanted to clarify that while other playable characters are in the game and can join you, they are included in the number above (40). Don't want anyone being disappointed, expecting 40 mercs in the roster at start.

All of these characters are fully fleshed-out and with comparable number of lines and other content as the AIM mercs.

Edited December 9, 2022 by Haemimont_Boian

[Grim]

Quote

(...) they are included in the number above (40). Don't want anyone being disappointed, expecting 40 mercs in the roster at start.

Thank you for the clarification, you saved many from a later disappointment here.

What about the rest of LoboNocturno's post? He points at a very sensitive subject with "cosmetics" here. It has been discussed a lot here and on discord, and it was indeed very important in past games. Could you elaborate on this later, in a post or dev diary? It would be interesting to know what ends up in the game and if something can be modded in (animated portraits, models, equipment)

[GODSPEED]

On 12/5/2022 at 9:29 AM, Hendrix said:

YES, you should be able to miss at point blank range. Shit happens, people stumble, get surprised, scared, adrenaline spikes and simple fuck ups etc. A Mercs experience should reduce the likelihood of it occurring though.

Video games have turned our ability to snipe with a pistol into an unbelievable reality, when it's actually quite easy to miss a shot 10 feet away.

Just because this is a turn-based game doesn't mean it should be as though there is no movement, there is a modifier to simulate the effect of shooting a moving target. Hopefully.

Meaning, two combatants firing at one another 10 feet away can easily miss or misjudge where they should aim. It's common. Having played airsoft for years, as much in CQB as in large woodland areas, you can literally be surprised and miss a reaction shot 6 feet away (I'm not military).

Edited December 24, 2022 by GODSPEED
Typo

[BossWeapons]

Good to finally hear about the game in more detail. Been lurking here for quite some time, waiting for those fabled DevDiaries to appear. Then they sneakily drop in just when I'm not paying any attention for weeks. That's a great summary of what you have in mind for JA3. Makes me hopeful for finally getting an actually good JA game which so far sounds like it's going to stay fairly close to the previous titles in spirit and mechanics. Can't wait to hear more!

Now how about a whole 4 pages long DevDiary sometimes later down the line about Custom Merc Creation, eh? Wink-wink! Nudge-nudge! 😏 

[Solaris_Wave]

It is good to know that so many fans of the earlier JA games exist, especially JA2. It shows that we all want to see an in-depth turn-based strategy with as much realism as possible. I know publishers these days want games to be as accessible as possible but that often comes at a cost of detail and what makes sense (e.g. “Why won’t the game let me do this?”). The thing is, a lot of strategy games that came out in the mid to late 1990s and early 2000s weren’t immediately accessible without a learning process to begin with, and yet we all somehow survived and today, have fond memories of them. Also, despite JA2’s depth, I personally found it a very accessible game and easy to learn (and think that the realism could go further and still remain accessible).

I am not saying that the developers will ‘dumb down’ JA3 and the posts made by @Haemimont_Boian have sounded very positive. It is funny though how gamers often complain about games being ‘dumbed down’ and yet, the only people who repeatedly seem in favour of doing so are the games publishers, and possibly the developers, of so many other games over the years.

Edited December 30, 2022 by Solaris_Wave

[BossWeapons]

I fully agree with the sentiment above. Not everything has to be a fit for mobile or simplified for the average consumer. Especially when we're talking about already established brands such as what we've got here. I would love to see a whole lot of detailed sub systems in this game too, but as long as we don't steer away from what JA2 established previously I'd be fine with it. Un-modded JA2 is a pretty different experience from 1.13 which these days is probably the go to option for people playing the game, even maybe for the first time, as it comes with fixes to run the game with modern systems. Or do I just remember wrong?

So far, judging from what we've been given in the form of this DevDiary, video and other media, everything's looking like it'll be pretty nice (if we rule out all the alpha jank from the visuals,) but that naturally remains to be seen how it'll end up in the long run. I'm hopeful however.

[Wigen]

I'm just asking out of curiosity. When is the next part of the developer's diary?

[Orth]

Will be there 2 or even 3 game modes: from arcade game style for newbies to fully realistic for experienced geeks?
And it's not about difficulty like enemies quantity and strength, but about balancing between automations and manual controll of every peace of combat, equipment, and so on.

[WILDFIRE]

Great to finally read your first detailed dev diary! Waited so long for this. I am very happy to hear that you take the combat and mercs so serious. Its so important that the combat feels deep (weapon ballistics, big open areas, houses with roofs, merc expertise and weather influence aiming, different ammo types) and has an continuous impact on your squad like wounds and exhaustion.

 

I hope the characters of the mercs and their personal stories, voice acting and quests are as deep as the combat, because that is the most important part for me. Can not wait to read your next dev diaries about the mercs, combat, quests, strategic map and so on.

 

Finally I have a question about the enemy types. Do you think about different bosses with special abilities that fight for the legion? They could control their own areas and you need special tactics to kill them. Also they could have their own backstory and character.

 

Maybe that would give the legion a face, not only basic soulless soldiers that you have to fight. A Top 5/10 boss list you need to defeat to get to the Endboss. But you have total freedom how and when you fight them. That could diversify the combat.

Edited January 10, 2023 by WILDFIRE

[Kordanor]

On 12/2/2022 at 8:22 AM, Haemimont_Boian said:

Trailer shots are sometimes recorded many times over and over, so it is important to guarantee the same outcome for each "take". In the specific trailer that you analyzed this was not done in the best way, resulting in the wrong impression. In addition we were still hammering out some kinks in the bullet simulation, which is one of the more involved and demanding systems in the game.

Both accurate and inaccurate shots are randomized and follow different trajectories, damaging objects and units on their path, penetrating objects and bodies depending on ammo properties and materials and causing chaos and collateral damage. Without going into further detail (saving this for a combat DevDiary) I will say that barring bugs and trailer fakery, they should behave as you expect them to - e.g. a missed attack might hit another character standing next to the target and an accurate attack does damage to objects on the way before and after the target (if it penetrates its body).

I'd like to pick up this point again. The new trailer had been released, and the same phenomenon is still visible as I described before: AT 2:51 you can see a shotgun attack, and if you go frame by frame, you can first see one single bullet coming out of it, showing the calculation and trajectory. Only then there is the shot with a animation of "fake bullets".

Does this mean, that even the new trailer is showing an outdated engine?

[WILDFIRE]

@Kordanor: Yes I am also interested if the bullet calculation is fixed now. Maybe the footage is really of an older build.

 

What bothers me right now is the movement of the characters. They sometimes go in zig zag from point to point when they move. I hope when they change the position in the future everything will be more fluid. 

 

The movement must look natural and not cut off so I hope that this will also be fixed.