DevDiary 1 - Game Vision

[Grim]

From the trailers and dev diary, my guess about the shots is :
- There is a hidden CTH
- If you score a hit, a path is calculated between the shooter's gun and the target (the body part aimed at), then a bullet is fired on this trajectory, with its own life (hitting this on the way).
- If you miss, a random angle from the requested path is calculated, and the bullet follows its own trajectory, doing its bullets things, meeting people and objects on the way.

I think (and hope) it is different from JA Flashback were the bullet trajectory was really fake. You could see the damage before the bullet even got out of the barrel of the gun.

[Haemimont_Boian]

16 hours ago, Kordanor said:

I'd like to pick up this point again. The new trailer had been released, and the same phenomenon is still visible as I described before: AT 2:51 you can see a shotgun attack, and if you go frame by frame, you can first see one single bullet coming out of it, showing the calculation and trajectory. Only then there is the shot with a animation of "fake bullets".

Does this mean, that even the new trailer is showing an outdated engine?

Hey Korandor,

Glad you picked this up! The new trailer actually doesn't suffer from the problem we discussed before but there is a reason behind what you are observing.

Different weapons and even ammo are more unique in JA3, hopefully more realistic as well. Specifically shotguns often have a close range "area attack" combined with their normal simulated attack, the idea behind this being that some kinds of shotgun ammo inflict practically guaranteed collateral damage at close range (unless there is an object that shields the target from the blast). This is also indicated by the cone you can observe while the attack is being set up. The collateral damage is much less than the damage from the simulated attack but can sometimes be useful to finish off an enemy or wound someone standing next to the intended target. On the other hand, an ally in the way makes things more complicated in this case, creating interesting gameplay situations and decisions.

Different attacks may use one or many simulated bullets. If this was a assault rifle on autofire every individual bullet would've been simulated instead.

More on this when we dissect combat in the next Dev Diaries!

Edit: Funny how this is related with the discussion for missing at point blank range we had in the very same thread. In case of the shotgun blast shown on the trailer, you will usually deal some damage to close targets, but it will be much less than with an accurate attack.

[FluffyQuack]

On 12/5/2022 at 8:37 AM, Haemimont_Boian said:

One popular topic of discussion in the design team is "should you be able to miss with a firearm at point-blank range in a turn-based tactical game?" Currently this is possible in JA3, as it was in JA2, however you would be surprised how many people find it unrealistic due to their own expectations. What do you think?

Based on my memory, I think this worked well in JA2. You could miss at point-blank range, but it was relatively rare even if you aimed at the lowest accuracy setting.

I did a quick test in JA2 to try to judge what the average hit chance is in that scenario. I created this setup:

• Early fight in the game; attacking first Drassen sector.
• Fox positioned next to an enemy. Her accuracy is 69%. Using her starting G17 pistol.
• I made sure to not get the "aiming at same opponent after one shot" to try to get the same accuracy for each shot.
• I did modifications to the source code to show hit chance (the game calculates a hit chance based on many variables and factors with a percentage ending up between 1 and 99), and to make damage always be zero and gave her infinite AP to make the test go faster.
• I kept doing shots with lowest aim level and hit chance was 68% -> 75% throughout the test (I forgot an obvious factor which is that her accuracy would go up the more I shot, so it didn't end up being static).

Results:

• 100 shots
• 81 hits
• 19 misses

So, in that scenario, a weak character with a starting gun ended up having a practical hit chance of about 80%.

By the way -- for anyone who's curious about how this all works -- because of how the bullet simulation works the practical hit chance is higher than the hit chance the game calculates (I wonder if that was one of the reasons they decided to keep it hidden from the player):

• The game calculates the hit chance. Let's say it became 75%.
• The game "rolls" a number between 1 and 99. If it rolls a number equal or lower than hit chance, it's a hit. If it's above, it's a miss. Let's say the game rolled a 80 (miss).
• If we hit, the bullet trajectory will match perfectly where we're aiming. But the more we miss (aka, the difference between hit chance and the number rolled), the more the bullet trajectory angle will divert. But since the bullet path is fully simulated, a "miss" can actually turn into a hit if the shooter is close enough to the target and if the angle diversion is small enough.

If you guys do end up with allowing misses at point-blank range, I hope you don't end up doing the same mistake as the nuXCOM games where it looks visually ridiculous. In those games, you'll see the soldier hold up a gun literally on an alien when you're right next to one, which makes the firing animation when missing just look absurd.

One thing I enjoyed about JA2 is that what you see visually matches up what's happening. You can very clearly see the paths bullets take. That's something that bugged me about the nuXCOM game where the bullets you saw visually were just pure cosmetics.

Edited January 20, 2023 by FluffyQuack

[WILDFIRE]

@FluffyQuack: Wow nice detailed description. I am totally with you when we talk about the new XCOM games. There the weapons and bullets have no weight. The impact of the bullets is fake and I really dont like that.

 

They just go through the bodies but they must hit them directly while the bullets fly realistically through the air. You must also see the wounds and blood on the body while the enemy is pushed back.

 

In JA2 you could really see the path the bullets took and they also hit realistically objects behind the enemy. They never flew in a straight line. That felt just so satisfying. The sound design where you could hear every bullet hit the different objects in the area was also outstanding.

[FluffyQuack]

8 hours ago, WILDFIRE said:

@FluffyQuack: Wow nice detailed description. I am totally with you when we talk about the new XCOM games. There the weapons and bullets have no weight. The impact of the bullets is fake and I really dont like that.

 

They just go through the bodies but they must hit them directly while the bullets fly realistically through the air. You must also see the wounds and blood on the body while the enemy is pushed back.

 

In JA2 you could really see the path the bullets took and they also hit realistically objects behind the enemy. They never flew in a straight line. That felt just so satisfying. The sound design where you could hear every bullet hit the different objects in the area was also outstanding.

Yeah, I think they did a great job in general with implementing the gunplay in JA2. One thing I really appreciated about JA2 (and it's something I like about the old X-Com games as well), is that the collision used for bullets and grenade matches extremely closely to what you see visually in the graphics, and you get to see clearly the exact paths the bullets take. So, if you miss something due to it hitting something in the environment, it's super apparent.

I also like how critical hits are handled in a natural and intuitive way. Most RPGs and turn-based games handle it as an arbitrary percentage chance. In JA2, it's straightforward: if you hit them in the head that's extra damage. Which means you get to see visually that it was a critical hit, while in most games you'd just see certain damage numbers be higher for no apparent reason.

I've spent a lot of time reading through JA2's source code and I think that's given me even more respect for the game. The function for calculating hit chance is a bit of a monster, but every factor influencing hit chance makes sense and it all looks like something they put a lot of thought into.

On the flipside, the more I read about how nuXCOM handles things under the hood, the less respect I have for it. For instance, what you see visually with the environment doesn't match the collision used for bullets at all. Or how the game adds or subtracts a massive bonus to accuracy based on difficulty but it's never shown to the player.

Edited January 21, 2023 by FluffyQuack

[Solaris_Wave]

On 1/19/2023 at 3:04 PM, Kordanor said:

I'd like to pick up this point again. The new trailer had been released, and the same phenomenon is still visible as I described before: AT 2:51 you can see a shotgun attack, and if you go frame by frame, you can first see one single bullet coming out of it, showing the calculation and trajectory. Only then there is the shot with a animation of "fake bullets".

Does this mean, that even the new trailer is showing an outdated engine?

That is an important issue regarding buckshot rounds. It is vital that each pellet is calculated as an individual shot. While any one pellet has the potential to kill, individual pellets are weak and the effectiveness of buckshot is when several or all of the pellets hit. If the buckshot is cosmetic and kind of works like a slug, then that would seriously diminish the character and versatility of a shotgun.

If the shotgun is implemented correctly, it can remain a useful weapon for the entirety of the game. The variety of ammo for shotguns is what keeps its relevance, even today. Also, hopefully, as the game progresses, not every enemy you face will automatically be wearing body armour. That will keep buckshot relevant, even if you are tempted to only carry slugs (and specialist rounds, like door breaching rounds).

[Solaris_Wave]

Battles in JA2 always felt tense, from the beginning of the game, right through to the finale. The environment could look pretty torn up by the end. When the battle was over and the game switched back into real-time, you could look back to certain areas of the battlefield and remember how certain game turns produced a real firefight that could have gone either way for both sides. The bullet calculations definitely proved the necessity for utilising cover and going prone.

[MURDOK]

Dear Developers! Its awesome to see there will be a real JA3!!!! I mean there were some "JA" titels in between, that were not bad I must say..but i can't wait for it. 

I am writing this cause of the following: 

1. Please pack in an insane amount of different weapons, utility items, ammo types to use and to equip. Don't forget mustard gas and stuff please. (Ok forget it...you cannot include ENOUGH weapons...but will be modded maybe xD)

2. Please dont forget about treasures!! in JA1 there were hidden items everywhere you could dig out. That was so amazing as the world became something to discover. (dont forget to put crazy weapons and stuff in those treasures...;)

Ok the rest I think you will have on your radar anyway. Alright where do I buy?

 

Cheers,

A fan.

[Wigen]

Jagged Alliance 3. First impressions of the game (POL). 

 

https://gry.interia.pl/zapowiezi/newsamp-jagged-alliance-3-przestrze-wrazenia-legenda-powrot-w-blasku,nId,6701551

[Hendrix]

1 hour ago, Wigen said:

Jagged Alliance 3. First impressions of the game (POL). 

 

https://gry.interia.pl/zapowiezi/newsamp-jagged-alliance-3-przestrze-wrazenia-legenda-powrot-w-blasku,nId,6701551

Used auto-translate to read the article.

Interesting (and nice) to read that the environment effects different aspects of the game.

Other than that not much new info. But the writer seems to like what he played.

[LoboNocturno]

23 hours ago, Hendrix said:

Used auto-translate to read the article.

Interesting (and nice) to read that the environment effects different aspects of the game.

Other than that not much new info. But the writer seems to like what he played.

It can be only someone who is 1 of the JA3 crew, otherwise how he would be able to play the beta game you know.

[anon474]

3 hours ago, LoboNocturno said:

It can be only someone who is 1 of the JA3 crew, otherwise how he would be able to play the beta game you know.

Um, if its a journalist it's because he was given access. Lots of journalists are given access before release to increase hype.

[LoboNocturno]

54 minutes ago, anon474 said:

Um, if its a journalist it's because he was given access. Lots of journalists are given access before release to increase hype.

Yea possibly.