First impressions

[LXant]

49 minutes ago, Tzg said:

Not true. You can literally blow enemies heads off. With one shot. Boom and dude has no head and dies instantly like in JA2 or Fallout. 

What do you mean, "not true"? Have you even played the game? A shot to the head can kill, but will not always do so. Play the game and you'll see for yourself.

Just a few minutes back I encountered a "Veteran Brute" with a shotgun. Shot him right in the head with a M24 sniper rifle for 90 dmg. You know what he did? He turned towards me and shot back, hit me and put a bleeding debuff on me. Then I took took a 2nd shot from an Anaconda revolver to his arms for 20 dmg, you know what he did? He turned towards me and returned fire, hitting me again and once more with a bleeding debuff.

Believe me or don't, but I know what I see and it's getting ridiculous.

[Tzg]

4 minutes ago, LXant said:

What do you mean, "not true"? Have you even played the game? A shot to the head can kill, but will not always do so. Play the game and you'll see for yourself.

Just a few minutes back I encountered a "Veteran Brute" with a shotgun. Shot him right in the head with a M24 sniper rifle for 90 dmg. You know what he did? He turned towards me and shot back, hit me and put a bleeding debuff on me. Then I took took a 2nd shot from an Anaconda revolver to his arms for 20 dmg, you know what he did? He turned towards me and returned fire, hitting me again and once more with a bleeding debuff.

Believe me or don't, but I know what I see and it's getting ridiculous.

It is JA game. I guess you never played any of it. I understand. It is and always was stats and modifiers based. So if your merc suck, your guns suck, and your ammo suck and generally you suck because you picking up wrong tools for the action then yeah it happens.

THIS IS THE GAME it supposed to be. You just don’t understand what you are playing - I guess you also want CtH etc. Well shit - this is not that type of game.

 

yes I haven’t been playing it all the time since release ..: not at all.  
 

 

[LXant]

8 minutes ago, Tzg said:

It is JA game. I guess you never played any of it. I understand. It is and always was stats and modifiers based. So if your merc suck, your guns suck, and your ammo suck and generally you suck because you picking up wrong tools for the action then yeah it happens.

THIS IS THE GAME it supposed to be. You just don’t understand what you are playing - I guess you also want CtH etc. Well shit - this is not that type of game.

Huh, seems like there's a discount on bad arguments... "It is JA game" is probably the weakest and cheapest argument available on the entire market. "Yes, it's unrealistic, but that is the game, it's supposed to be that way"? And I only don't like it because I "don't understand" what I'm playing?

Are we really discussing why it makes perfect sense that a bullet to the head doesn't impede the target whatsoever? That it depends on personal skill if a bullet to the head kills or not? What kind of nonsense is this? We're talking about guns, not a sword or hammer that depends on the personal strength of the wielder.

What's next, you're going to defend that it is perfectly fine to spawn 10 enemies into a room which I previously fully explored, out of thin air, because "it is JA game" and that is what naturally happens when you click "activate hydraulics"? A perfectly fine and logical outcome? (and yes, this is exactly what happens in that one room)

If you like absurd and unrealistic things in the game, then great, you have what you want. But I don't like it, and that's all there is to it. The devs will read the feedback and act accordingly, or not. It's up to them. Just don't tell me it's my own fault that I don't like what I think is bad combat design.

[marcinl0]

For sure: Dear THQ Creators, we waited patiently for almost thirty years from the brilliant JA2 (not counting the tragically poor continuation attempts, only BIA I wanted to play) to get a REALLY worthy successor that retains the unique atmosphere of the timeless original JA series (JA JA2 JA2.5) and everything good in the JA series -
since the title says JA3 - but it obliges... Urgent patch PLEASE - see JA3 patch needed - urgent

[Tzg]

12 minutes ago, LXant said:

Huh, seems like there's a discount on bad arguments... "It is JA game" is probably the weakest and cheapest argument available on the entire market. "Yes, it's unrealistic, but that is the game, it's supposed to be that way"? And I only don't like it because I "don't understand" what I'm playing?

Are we really discussing why it makes perfect sense that a bullet to the head doesn't impede the target whatsoever? That it depends on personal skill if a bullet to the head kills or not? What kind of nonsense is this? We're talking about guns, not a sword or hammer that depends on the personal strength of the wielder.

What's next, you're going to defend that it is perfectly fine to spawn 10 enemies into a room which I previously fully explored, out of thin air, because "it is JA game" and that is what naturally happens when you click "activate hydraulics"? A perfectly fine and logical outcome? (and yes, this is exactly what happens in that one room)

If you like absurd and unrealistic things in the game, then great, you have what you want. But I don't like it, and that's all there is to it. The devs will read the feedback and act accordingly, or not. It's up to them. Just don't tell me it's my own fault that I don't like what I think is bad combat design.

All that makes sense but…. It actually is THE ARGUMENT. 
Jagged alliance was never meant to be a deeply realistic military sim game. 
From very first one through all the editions it was a pisstake on the 80’s and 90’s action movies and the whole genre!

It always had a WHOLE MASSIVE number of unrealistic and mad things with SF elements. From electric Eels and ‘magic’ trees in JA1 to genetically modified blood cats, rocket guns and aliens/monsters in two. Including cloned/brothers bartenders and family taken straight from hills have eyes. 
 

this isn’t and wasn’t to be deeply realistic simulator of tactical operations! If you are expecting that you are just silly. As the dude looking for CtH. 

[marcinl0]

JA3 slows down - maybe there is a way to better (manually) optimize JA3 for easy quiet gameplay - how to better speed up JA3 gameplay - maybe is available a special  configuration file - with more effective settings.

[LoboNocturno]

7 hours ago, just_dont said:

It's pretty fine for animals to be quite tough, otherwise they will always be a non-factor. JA2 cats were extremely bullet-spongey as well, unless you specifically used high-power HP bullets.

Thats true, but at least the Blood Cats were mutated tigers (which are way stronger then real tigers or the powerful eels back in JA1 were also not normal eels/snakes.) Rocket rifles were the best weapon to use on them.

 

@LXant Once we mod the game, we seriously need to re balance the weapons, make the assault rifles obviously stronger (they were the primary weapons of our mercs but in JA3 its the sniper rifles.

[ninjalex]

1 minute ago, LoboNocturno said:

ant Once we mod the game, we seriously need to re balance the weapons, make the assault rifles obviously stronger (they were the primary weapons of our mercs but in JA3 its the sniper rifles.

Maybe your mercs in JA2. Not mine.

[StoProGratis]

I think there are better ways for making the game harder without just making enemies bulletproof. I've just shot whole burst from Uzi into the snipers head from 1 box distance in the 3rd sector on the first island and he survived.

Ideas for making game more challenging:

- let the enemies interrupt your actions with some Avoid attack action for example you shoot burst but the enemy starts to run and you miss few bullet's making less damage. This can happen more frequently with more experienced enemies. The Merc or enemy can get few Action Penaltie points for that in the next turn.

- better bulletproof equipment for higher level enemies and overall gear like grandes, flash bangs 

- at night the enemies can have searchlights so few scout's can spot you for the snipers behind them. And the flares if course 🙂

- in some guarded locations the guard dogs should be cool 

[LXant]

9 minutes ago, LoboNocturno said:

@LXant Once we mod the game, we seriously need to re balance the weapons, make the assault rifles obviously stronger (they were the primary weapons of our mercs but in JA3 its the sniper rifles.

I'm looking forward to it! I really like the concept of stroming into enemy positions and shooting things up and close to mid range. Just that the game heavily disfavors everything but single shot snipes from a distance. The scarcity of ammo or basic items like flashbangs, grenades or molotov cocktails kind of forces an approach that doesn't waste a single bullet. That, and that most enemies can tank assault rifles.

[GODSPEED]

4 hours ago, LXant said:

What do you mean, "not true"? Have you even played the game? A shot to the head can kill, but will not always do so. Play the game and you'll see for yourself.

Just a few minutes back I encountered a "Veteran Brute" with a shotgun. Shot him right in the head with a M24 sniper rifle for 90 dmg. You know what he did? He turned towards me and shot back, hit me and put a bleeding debuff on me. Then I took took a 2nd shot from an Anaconda revolver to his arms for 20 dmg, you know what he did? He turned towards me and returned fire, hitting me again and once more with a bleeding debuff.

Believe me or don't, but I know what I see and it's getting ridiculous.

@LXant Honestly, ignore the rose-tinted glasses some members seem to have.

If you were to say ANYTHING that THEY feel is "negative" towards the game they like, they will simply bring you down a loophole of arguments that have no footing, just for the sake of arguing. They'll tell you how the game isn't to simulate real-life, or how it isn't a milsim... then another person will go to explain that in real-life, some have survived headshots.

Go figure. Both defending the same game, with arguments that contradict one another.


Needless to say, I'm having fun with the game; but as any new game, a few things need tweaking as well. I've also encountered the headshot problem.

Actually, I got a head blown off early in the game (quite the surprise). But, just in my last hours of play yesterday, I've had a guy come right up to me and end his turn adjacent to Igor (Igor has an AK-47). I took a burst at his head, point blank. Max aim. All 3 bullets hits. The next turn, the bad guy simply shrugged it off and shot at me.

No, I didn't go into fetal position, I didn't cry and I didn't get mad or close the game, as some here seem to imply that you're going way overboard just for mentionning balancing issues... but just like you, it kind of took me out of the game in terms of immersion. Kind of like a "wtf" moment that makes no sense. The guy did NOT have armor on his head. There was no fog, or no buffs to damage reduction (only the damage reduction from burst fire and damage bonus from headshot).

It's a head-scratcher all right.

Those who try to make you feel like an idiot because you're "scratching" your head about it... best just ignore them.

[LXant]

@GODSPEED

Yes, I'm pretty much in the same boat. I like the game and I'm passionate about it. It's just that there are really strange moments that feel like the Matrix is glitching or something. Things that just shouldn't be.

I still enjoy it, but the devs probably want honest feedback. That is what I'm providing here.

In that spirit, good huntin'!

[Melliores]

Well, I reckon you approach combat mostly from a reallife and roleplay point of view. Let us steer the discussion towards game mechanics to better understand each other.

In JA3 (current build) if you build your weapon and merc for high crit chance almost any shot that connects with a head will crit and do 100+ damage. I have yet to see an enemy survive a crit to the head.

Just hitting a body part does not guarantee you high-enough damage to one shot an enemy. Crits for the most part do that. Another solution that we already discussed with LXant was for headshots to apply a status effect, much like what happens when you hit the groin, legs or arms.

Blindness possibly? Or a random effect between Panic, Blindness, Fatigued, Prone et cetera?
Though I am sure this will make the game easier, as it will encourage even more shooting with rifles.

Edited July 16 by Melliores

[Solaris_Wave]

2 hours ago, GODSPEED said:

It's a head-scratcher all right.

Kind of like those three bullets to the enemy's head, who shrugged it off!

Edited July 16 by Solaris_Wave

[Warmonger]

It works. It simply works. Yes it is the follower. The KI is much better than with JA2 and I am positive amazed with. The atmosphere, well, it is the most difficult thing to match up with JA2. I am in deep fights meanwhile, needing all my skills and must learn more skills even. Who wants more beyond a superb graphics with destructible houses & more?! 

[Solaris_Wave]

11 hours ago, LXant said:

But that's not what happens in the game. The enemy militia is also tough, tanky, high-accuracy and high dmg output, with incredibly good self-dissolving equipment, while still bringing huge numbers and unlimited supplies (which we can't take for ourselves) to the table.

This is a problem that definitely needs sorting so the game doesn't become exhausting to play. Like I mentioned elsewhere, you are forced to play by rules the enemy doesn't have to. They are numerous and tough. You are limited in numbers. They have infinite ammo. You are always struggling to have enough of it. Your reward for killing those enemies? You now have less ammo and are not allowed to salvage it from your defeated opponents.

The added problem with this is that I am guessing that most players of the game have so far only faced the starting enemies. There are screenshots showing more professional looking enemies. What is it going to be like when they turn up?

Edited July 16 by Solaris_Wave

[LXant]

2 minutes ago, Solaris_Wave said:

The added problem with this is that I am guessing that most players of the game have so far only faced the starting enemies. There are screenshots showing more professional looking enemies. What is it going to be like when they turn up?

I didn't meet the elite yet, but Veterans. In another post I described how he managed to tank a shot from a M24 sniper rifle to the unprotected head for 90 dmg, turned around, shot me with his shotgun, hit, inflicted bleeding. Then I shot him with an Anaconda piston into the arm for 20 dmg, he turned around, shot me with his shotgun, hit, inflicted bleeding. The 3rd shot finally brought him down.

So yeah, I can see where the road leads. Higher accuracy, even more hp, better weapons, more enemies.

I really wish I had the ammo to keep up with the hp inflation. Anyway, due to the scarcity of ammo and the nature of combat in general, I now play the snipe game and abuse the sneak/hide mechanic to clear out sectors. I'm a bit sad that this seems to be the only working strategy that can deal with both the enemy and the ammo shortage. I was hoping for more assault rifle action and cinematic shootouts.

[Solaris_Wave]

7 hours ago, LXant said:

Are we really discussing why it makes perfect sense that a bullet to the head doesn't impede the target whatsoever? That it depends on personal skill if a bullet to the head kills or not? What kind of nonsense is this? We're talking about guns, not a sword or hammer that depends on the personal strength of the wielder.

A bullet should perform the same amount of intended damage, independent of the skill of the shooter that fired it. The merc or enemy's skills should dictate whether the bullet hits or not. If the bullet does, it shouldn't do less damage just because skills are lower.

I am reading things here about higher damaging calibres doing not enough damage to critical locations like the head and that is a real disappointment. It can only be worse with weaker calibres. If a .357 or .44 Magnum round to the head provides little result other than to just shave off some hitpoints, then anything like 9mm Parabellum (or lower if in the game) will take all day.

 

7 hours ago, LXant said:

What's next, you're going to defend that it is perfectly fine to spawn 10 enemies into a room which I previously fully explored, out of thin air, because "it is JA game" and that is what naturally happens when you click "activate hydraulics"? A perfectly fine and logical outcome? (and yes, this is exactly what happens in that one room)

Another annoyance for me in games. Clearing and securing an area and then suddenly enemies teleport in like they are from an episode of Star Trek. If an area is clear and there are no other entry points, the game should be designed to bring in enemies from another vector. It is ridiculous if you see no way any enemies can get in, turn round to leave and then get 'Kirked' from behind.

Edited July 16 by Solaris_Wave

[Solaris_Wave]

10 minutes ago, LXant said:

So yeah, I can see where the road leads. Higher accuracy, even more hp, better weapons, more enemies.

I have never liked bullet sponges in games and this does sound like one of those situations. You said you took down the Veteran Brute in three shots, which doesn't sound a lot. However, the types of bullets used and the locations they hit should have had a different result than him simply returning fire. Accuracy penalties, concussion, the desire to take cover or run away. Anything other than just hitpoint reduction.

[Solaris_Wave]

11 hours ago, LXant said:

I think it was a mistake to include aiming at body parts, at least in the current state of combat. By offering options like a headshot, they opened the door to realism, but then pulled back at the last possible moment by removing the realistic consequences of actually getting shot in the head. Same with hits to the arms or legs. Hit to the arms: they drop their weapon. Hit to the leg: enemy drops to the ground. But neither happens, they get a slight debuff to accuracy, but then still fire suppressive fire from across the screen hit me behind full cover. Where does such a state of combat leave us?

From the beginning of my time in these forums, I made the suggestion (and constantly pushed for it) to remove body part aiming except for at close range and for when looking through a telescopic sight at enemies who are not performing a sprinting action (as they would be harder to hit). At mid to long ranges you can't really choose what part of a target's body to aim at, unless you have a capable enough optic and the target isn't moving around.

I suggested that optional body part aiming be reduced to those two situations. All other situations would mean that you just aim at a general target. The bullet then hits a random part of the target, with the greatest chance being the torso, followed by the arms, then the legs; then head, hands and feet being the smallest percentage. If the bullet does hit one of those more critical areas, you are rewarded with a more damaging impact to the target, whether that is an outright kill, incapacitation or a crippling effect. It would also be a nice surprise to you, the player, when one of those bullets gets a lucky hit.

This rule would apply to all capable enemies firing at your mercs as well. Therefore, the faster your mercs are moving, the harder the chance to hit a critical location.

This overall effect on the game would reduce the emphasis on single, aimed shots (especially the obvious desire to aim at the head) and bring about the need for full-auto fire. Meanwhile, there would be no full-auto damage reduction. There would be increasing accuracy penalties the more bullets fired, due to recoil. There would also be no scarcity of ammo. If the enemy has abundant ammo and you are using the same guns as they are, your supply of ammo is on the same scale as theirs. The ammo would start off in the game as cheap, abundant but poor quality. This would entail a slight loss of accuracy and increased wear on the guns, requiring sooner maintenance.

 

Unfortunately, Haemimont didn't do any of that. I will try to mod body part aiming at the very least, if I have time and when I can finally play the game (unless someone else wants to do it), but I don't even know if they hard coded full body part aiming at all times, despite my suggestions being put forth long before the first Developer Diary.