Enemies will not be blown away from their original positions by explosives

[Grim]

Sir, you are stuck in JA2. For your own sake, you should go back and play it again. No other game will ever satisfy you, because it seems you only want JA2.

JA2 remaster will never happen, this is not possible. If someone ever want to try this, you will not like it because it will never have exactly the same feel.

The best thing you can experience is 1.13 or some other JA2 mod.

If you want to play another Jagged Alliance game, you have to let go some of your expectations and embrace the new take on the licence, or you will ever be unsatisfied.
 

[MagicShadow]

32 minutes ago, Grim said:

Sir, you are stuck in JA2. For your own sake, you should go back and play it again. No other game will ever satisfy you, because it seems you only want JA2.

JA2 remaster will never happen, this is not possible. If someone ever want to try this, you will not like it because it will never have exactly the same feel.

The best thing you can experience is 1.13 or some other JA2 mod.

If you want to play another Jagged Alliance game, you have to let go some of your expectations and embrace the new take on the licence, or you will ever be unsatisfied.
 

I'm just that type of guy that has high standards and most of all live up to the motto "don't fix what ain't broken" i guess 😄 
And yes, that means i'm not easily satisfied. If more customers out there would be like that, only then game studios would raise the bar.

Unfortunately these days (most) customers want everything at once, as fast as possible regardless the quality. And producers respond to that 😉 

[WILDFIRE]

For my part I wish the game would be darker, more serious and less cartoony. Also the missing animated portraits really hurt the atmosphere. These aspects could be in a modern JA3 without turning the mainstream audience away. I want a modernized JA3 but with the dark and serious tone of JA2. I guess this is not too much to ask for.

 

It is the exact same discussion with Diablo 3. Many people didn't like the colorful design of everything and now what happened? We get a dark, serious and more brutal Diablo with part 4.

 

The tone is something that could be more like JA2 but in a 3D environment.

[MagicShadow]

12 minutes ago, WILDFIRE said:

For my part I wish the game would be darker, more serious and less cartoony. Also the missing animated portraits really hurt the atmosphere. These aspects could be in a modern JA3 without turning the mainstream audience away. I want a modernized JA3 but with the dark and serious tone of JA2. I guess this is not too much to ask for.

 

It is the exact same discussion with Diablo 3. Many people didn't like the colorful design of everything and now what happened? We get a dark, serious and more brutal Diablo with part 4.

 

The tone is something that could be more like JA2 but in a 3D environment.

Coincidentally I was just reading your comment on one of the Dev Diaries and I fully agree. The overall style is way too cartoonish for it to be a JA successor. Ergo: lets drop the JA name tag and lets just call this game differently. Someone else mentioned Tropico on this forum and I find that more suitable.

Such a shame since the ideas behind this game are pretty neat. But the art style simply doesnt make me enthousiastic enough to pick this game up. It doesn't tickle any nerve in my body or reminds me of Jagged Alliance. Characters don't interact, are liveless and blunt. Emotionless and way to brushed up and clown-like while they are in fact Hitman, killing for money but with their own things.

I'd urge them to seriously look into a different art style (it's just skins for the sake of god) that comes much closer to the original and just then sell this game as JA3. If not, please don't talk about Jagged Alliance anymore but name it differently.

Since currently... its NOT. 😞 

Edited May 24, 2023 by MagicShadow

[Lunokhod]

11 minutes ago, WILDFIRE said:

For my part I wish the game would be darker, more serious and less cartoony.

Not only u, everyone here...

12 minutes ago, WILDFIRE said:

These aspects could be in a modern JA3 without turning the mainstream audience away.

Ure wrong if u think that zoomers love soft cartoon style games. They love cool looking stuff. This artstyle of JA3 - not for zoomers, its just mistake. Probably they just cant do something better, they dont know how to draw in other styles. Its Haemimont's Tropico style game.

[WILDFIRE]

JA2 has a realistic look as you can see on Shadows portrait/face. The cartoony art style of JA3 simply feels out of place, because the JA2 vibe is the opposite of that. It is mostly a realistic and grounded world and not some kind of over the top modern Far Cry.

[Frank]

Oh, come on. The game isn't even finished or released yet and people are already complaining about what's wrong with it. These images are from beta-testers, so it does not necessarily represent the final product. For all we know they already fixed it.

[WILDFIRE]

We give feedback so that the game can be improved. In the latest trailer I could not see that something has changed regarding the cartoony art style/portraits. When the game is released feedback will be useless, because there is no room to improve some elements.

[Frank]

But this topic wasn't originally about esthetics, it was a complaint about enemy AI and people were already comparing it to the finished version of JA2. And things like that can be fixed at any time with a patch.

And concerning the feedback on the art-style, it's a bit grandiose to think that the devs are going to do an entire overhaul of the game's look - less than two months before launch, mind you - based on the complaints of a few people on a forum. The game looks the way it does, nothing is going to change that outside of the modding community.

[Elite77]

6 hours ago, MagicShadow said:

In fact I do believe that if they did not put the Jagged Alliance stamp on it, lots of people wouldn't even recognize the franchise and that is a pretty big issue if you ask me.. Now it just seems they hang on the coattails of the JA franchise (like their predecessors) but dont really pay tribute to the earliest games.

I wish them God's speed though. But i'll let this one pass even disregarding the 4h free to play period on Steam.

 

If you say so, there's not much else coming out quite like it, might as well buy it to check it out.

[Elite77]

5 hours ago, Grim said:

Sir, you are stuck in JA2. For your own sake, you should go back and play it again. No other game will ever satisfy you, because it seems you only want JA2.

JA2 remaster will never happen, this is not possible. If someone ever want to try this, you will not like it because it will never have exactly the same feel.

The best thing you can experience is 1.13 or some other JA2 mod.

If you want to play another Jagged Alliance game, you have to let go some of your expectations and embrace the new take on the licence, or you will ever be unsatisfied.
 

Silent Storm satisfied me, even though it didn't have quite the same mechanics of JA2, like no permanent progression or a real economy.

All I need and want (I'm aware the comment was written to the other person) is solid fundamental mechanics that are in keeping with JA2.

Edited May 24, 2023 by Elite77

[WILDFIRE]

@Frank: No one thinks that there will be big changes regarding the art direction but maybe some smaller improvements for the portraits should be possible for example that some mercs look more serious and do not smile so heavily or that the colors get reduced a little bit. By the way this feedback is more than a year old and I wanted to point out that it is just sad that there are zero improvements in this area.

 

Overall I was more referring to Grims post where he says that some people just want a JA2 remaster. I think JA3 should not be exactly like JA2 but it should definitely have the same atmosphere. For me I just want a modernized JA2 in a 3D environment with a new story but also with the same realistic tone.

 

@Lunokhod: You are wrong if you think that titles like Fortnite do not influence the gaming industry heavily. Even more serious games like Call of Duty Modern Warfare 2 have cartoony skins for kids. So the only plausible reason for me why the game is more cartoony and colorful is to please a wide audience.

[Remi1987]

3 hours ago, WILDFIRE said:

please a wide audience

Yes. And if you speak to everyone, you speak to no-one. The hardcore fanbase won't be served well, i'm afraid.

[Elite77]

1 hour ago, Remi1987 said:

Yes. And if you speak to everyone, you speak to no-one. The hardcore fanbase won't be served well, i'm afraid.

Accurate and true, niche products that try to appeal to a mass audience, to a certain extent, end up being for nobody, because the gap between the "mainstream" and the "niche" is too big.

 

Another thing: there is no such thing as a mainstream audience. This was a myth created by publishers and financiers and marketers and other out of touch dumb***es (with all due respect) who still think in terms of Pokemon and selling consoles to kids. WOW has how many subscribers? Is WOW a mass appeal game? How much stats it has, how in-depth the meta is. Path of Exile? I can go on. The myth of the mainstream audience doesn't exist, 90% of the target demographic is perfectly happy buying extremely niche extremely difficult or complex titles...as long as they are good.

I don't need to mention Elden Ring which was one of the most difficult and hardcore titles sold in last few years, but was also one of the most successful. Tarkov is another example of a hard but very successful title.

Audiences absolutely want complex mechanics and serious designers and design that is already familiar with the genre.

In a way, that's why titles like XCOM 1 and 2 are so funny. They come from the most hardcore of hardcore genres, tactics, which IMO is the most hardcore genre, even more hardcore and complicated than CRPG. But they make the MOST concessions to the "mainstream audience", which as we already established doesn't exist. They miss the mark completely and on purpose. They target demographic is insanely serious about their strategy, but their concessions are the greatest. They stand to gain the most money by catering to the niche, but instead they go the furthest to accommodate an inexistent mainstream audience.

Edited May 24, 2023 by Elite77

[Stuurminator]

25 minutes ago, Elite77 said:

In a way, that's why titles like XCOM 1 and 2 are so funny. They come from the most hardcore of hardcore genres, tactics, which IMO is the most hardcore genre, even more hardcore and complicated than CRPG. But they make the MOST concessions to the "mainstream audience", which as we already established doesn't exist. They miss the mark completely and on purpose. They target demographic is insanely serious about their strategy, but their concessions are the greatest. They stand to gain the most money by catering to the niche, but instead they go the furthest to accommodate an inexistent mainstream audience.

Okay, but I guarantee XCOM 2 has sold at least an order of magnitude more than JA3 ever will. You can't pretend these appeals to a wider audience are inherently self-defeating.

[WILDFIRE]

Publishers and developers often try to copy elements from successful games to create their own title, even more when the genre is a niche. But today the more niche titles like the first FromSoftware Games can reach now millions of players. So the gaming industry has changed a lot in the last ten years.

 

I think the Jagged Alliance franchise is a raw diamond that is like the FromSoftware Games. It should not be changed but evolved and only the wide audience must understand what it is. What if the FromSoftware Games would be dumbed down in the past? No one would remember these games today.

 

So overall I know what the JA3 devs try to do. Keep the core gameplay from JA2 but mix it with a Far Cry over the top art style to reach a wider audience. I can not blame them for that, because overall it is still a true Jagged Alliance Game and not a nuXCOM Game. In the end I just wish we would have the more serious and realistic art style of JA2 but I guess that is something we might get with JA4. So history repeats itself just with different games when you look at the changes from Diablo 3 to Diablo 4.

[Elite77]

41 minutes ago, Stuurminator said:

Okay, but I guarantee XCOM 2 has sold at least an order of magnitude more than JA3 ever will. You can't pretend these appeals to a wider audience are inherently self-defeating.

What if I told you, they would've sold even more by doubling down on time units/action points, and other less "mass appeal" features?

[Elite77]

17 minutes ago, WILDFIRE said:

Publishers and developers often try to copy elements from successful games to create their own title, even more when the genre is a niche. But today the more niche titles like the first FromSoftware Games can reach now millions of players. So the gaming industry has changed a lot in the last ten years.

But why. Didn't I just tell you that pretty much everything aside from Fortnite is EXTREMELY hardcore and complicated?

The niche dominates sales charts, not the "mainstream".

Eve Online, Elden Ring, Tarkov, WOW.

There are more niche and super in-depth titles than some easy "pick up and go" titles.

Edited May 24, 2023 by Elite77

[WILDFIRE]

@Elite77: I know all of this so you do not have to tell me. Ask this question the developers. I wonder by myself for a long time why some decisions were made by the devs but I see some possible reasons. As I mentioned one is to get more attention, because Far Cry and Fortnite are popular games.

 

You can see that Games like Rainbow Six Siege or Modern Warfare 1/2 had a more serious base but integrated colorful/cartoony operator later to please a wider audience. So your argument is not completely true. These titles as well as Fortnite sell way more copies/skins/DLCs than for example the FromSoftware Games. The gaming industry is a complex field when you want to analyse successful concepts.

 

Another reason for the current art direction could be that the designer thinks that the colorful and cartoony look fits the colorful 3D environments. As I mentioned before I think Jagged Alliance is a raw diamond like the FromSoftware Games and should be evolved but I can understand that the devs in some ways chose a saver route for the art direction to get the most attention for the game. In my opinion a realistic, serious and grounded art style could have also worked to get a big sales number but now that the game is nearly finished we will not get that I guess.

[Solaris_Wave]

The more a game appeals to a wider audience, the more people will buy that game and the greater the profit. I know I am stating the obvious here but really, that is what a lot of publishers see. To do that, a game will get dumbed down and made more simple. To some, by doing so, a game will get a higher review score in the magazines, while to those that want a more distinct and focused experience, it can be a missed opportunity.

I wasn't expecting to see JA3 as a refurbished and modernised JA2 v1.13, but I was expecting it to take a more serious tone and have more realistic aspects.

[Elite77]

5 hours ago, Solaris_Wave said:

The more a game appeals to a wider audience, the more people will buy that game and the greater the profit. I know I am stating the obvious here but really, that is what a lot of publishers see. To do that, a game will get dumbed down and made more simple. To some, by doing so, a game will get a higher review score in the magazines, while to those that want a more distinct and focused experience, it can be a missed opportunity.

I wasn't expecting to see JA3 as a refurbished and modernised JA2 v1.13, but I was expecting it to take a more serious tone and have more realistic aspects.

But is this true. Or is the wider audience a myth, that was created in 2000s by people who trivialized audiences, and didn't realize how advanced audiences are, and how willing they are to purchase a product even if it's very hardcore.

I would say the niche audience and hardcore audience is bigger than the mainstream or wider audience. There are more hardcore titles like Tarkov being sold than there are not hardcore ones.

[Frank]

12 hours ago, Elite77 said:

In a way, that's why titles like XCOM 1 and 2 are so funny. They come from the most hardcore of hardcore genres, tactics, which IMO is the most hardcore genre, even more hardcore and complicated than CRPG. But they make the MOST concessions to the "mainstream audience", which as we already established doesn't exist. They miss the mark completely and on purpose. They target demographic is insanely serious about their strategy, but their concessions are the greatest. They stand to gain the most money by catering to the niche, but instead they go the furthest to accommodate an inexistent mainstream audience.

It's quite bizarre to see someone act so condescending and belittling to a franchise reboot that received overwhelmingly positive reviews and sold in huge numbers. XCOM 2 alone sold half a million units in the first week after launch.

They didn't miss any mark. They simply went in another direction and it paid off well, both literally and figuratively.

[WILDFIRE]

@Elite77: Maybe they didn't realize how advanced the audiences are but they do now. As I mentioned the gaming industry changed a lot in the last ten years so you can not lump everything together. Still there are simpler titles like Call of Duty MW2, GTA 5, PUBG or Fortnite that generate a lot of money. I think it is great that the hardcore players now get more attention and that games like Tarkov, Hunt: Showdown or Elden Ring sell very well.

 

But I wouldn't say they completely dominate the charts. They are rising and that is good also for games like Jagged Alliance, because the wide audience now might appreciate a game that is a little bit more hardcore and complex. I just wish the art style would fit more it's hardcore gameplay mechanics.

[Elite77]

1 hour ago, Frank said:

It's quite bizarre to see someone act so condescending and belittling to a franchise reboot that received overwhelmingly positive reviews and sold in huge numbers. XCOM 2 alone sold half a million units in the first week after launch.

They didn't miss any mark. They simply went in another direction and it paid off well, both literally and figuratively.

I'm only hating because I assume nobody from Firaxis is here, and I would phrase my words differently if they were.

However my fundamental statement, I think, is true. If XCOM 2 or even XCOM 1 didn't beat around the bush and go full time units, complex stats and perk mechanics, complicated items, complicated levels. If they did that, they'd sell even more copies, and not just copies, but the audience would be just as passionate as our people are about Jagged Alliance today.

It's not just about selling copies, how far the support goes is also important. I bought plenty of games for 50 bucks in the past, and have already forgotten them. Why is this not the same for Jagged Alliance 2. Because they committed to complex mechanics, and 1.13 expanded on that complexity.

And XCOM 2 did make everything, especially with WOTC more complex. But it was still a bit arcadey for my liking. And a bit too simple, even in the arcade direction.

Edited May 25, 2023 by Elite77

[Xeth Nyrrow]

3 hours ago, Elite77 said:

I'm only hating because I assume nobody from Firaxis is here, and I would phrase my words differently if they were.

However my fundamental statement, I think, is true. If XCOM 2 or even XCOM 1 didn't beat around the bush and go full time units, complex stats and perk mechanics, complicated items, complicated levels. If they did that, they'd sell even more copies, and not just copies, but the audience would be just as passionate as our people are about Jagged Alliance today.

It's not just about selling copies, how far the support goes is also important. I bought plenty of games for 50 bucks in the past, and have already forgotten them. Why is this not the same for Jagged Alliance 2. Because they committed to complex mechanics, and 1.13 expanded on that complexity.

And XCOM 2 did make everything, especially with WOTC more complex. But it was still a bit arcadey for my liking. And a bit too simple, even in the arcade direction.

Your JA2 1.13 example is completely flawed because that was the modding community who made those changes, not the devs. The devs didn't even support native modding for the game. I agree that modding makes games have the most longevity, it's allowed Skyrim to sell at $50 for 10+ years! In terms of that, JA3 is promising a robust system which is great.

Complicated games can sell well but often don't as the hardcore market is the minority now. Back when JA2 came out though it was the majority of the market. Want proof? Look at how many billions are spent on game, "cheats". Things to help players do artificial grinds that are designed in to most games. Also paying for the privilege of doing those grinds (battle passes). it's absolutely disgusting but this is the market of today.

The only way you get a quality product these days is from smaller studios who care more about making the game in their vision than making money. In my mind that is where the threshold for the term, "indie game" changes. When a game becomes more of a mass market to make money game it's no longer, "indie". And to be fair, I'm sure the vast majority of the developers on all games want and try to make the best game they can in their vision.