Ineventory management system

[Solaris_Wave]

So, as well as not needing to carry magazines, each merc no longer needs to carry medical items? If they get hit, they can just pull a bandage from the magic invisible supply cart? Are there any penalties to drawing from the shared inventory instead of the merc's own? Will it cost more action points?

Also, what about support weapons with large ammunition? A merc could carry an RPG but thanks to the shared inventory, now doesn't have to worry about the weight and space of extra rockets. As long as there are enough in the supply mothership, that merc can move around unencumbered and reload to their heart's content.

[Stuurminator]

I'm not unsympathetic to the developers' viewpoint here. Sid Meier describes gameplay as "a series of interesting decisions", and one could argue that adding ammunition to a merc's inventory is not an interesting decision. Every merc needs ammo, so there's no deciding whether to bring it or not, but they probably don't need enough to fill up multiple slots (unless each slot only holds one magazine or something, which would just be irritating).

Everyone be honest, when was the last time you ran out of ammo during a battle in a (unmodified) Jagged Alliance game? When was the last time that you actually had to think over how many magazines to carry? The same goes for first aid supplies: in JA2, I had everyone carry two small first aid kits in one stack and never had reason to think further about it. One can argue that actually adding ammo or first aid supplies to a merc's inventory is pointless busywork.

But.

I'm willing to do that busywork for the sake of verisimilitude. Mercenaries just pulling ammo and first aid supplies out of a shared pocket dimension doesn't feel right. And yes, I know it's a abstraction, and that in-universe they're probably just carrying all the ammo and bandages they need from the group supply and restock ones the fighting is over...but it still doesn't feel right.

Maybe I'll get used to it. Maybe, after I've played for a few hours, I won't even notice the difference, and maybe I'll benefit from not having to waste precious seconds mindlessly dragging-and-dropping ammo into the same inventory slot I've devoted for hours already. I'm approaching JA3 with an open mind. But from my position here, before playing the game, it still just doesn't feel right.

[Grim]

33 minutes ago, Solaris_Wave said:

So, as well as not needing to carry magazines, each merc no longer needs to carry medical items? If they get hit, they can just pull a bandage from the magic invisible supply cart?

No, from what I've seen, medical herbs serve as consumables when doctoring (satellite map operation), or to refill healing kits. Mercs still need healing kits (medikits?) to "bandage" on the field. Those are items in individual inventories.

 

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Are there any penalties to drawing from the shared inventory instead of the merc's own? Will it cost more action points

I don't know, I didn't notice that particular action. I don't remember if item exchange can be done during combat.

 

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Also, what about support weapons with large ammunition? A merc could carry an RPG but thanks to the shared inventory, now doesn't have to worry about the weight and space of extra rockets. As long as there are enough in the supply mothership, that merc can move around unencumbered and reload to their heart's content.

I guess so, unless rockets are inventory items only.

[Solaris_Wave]

12 hours ago, Stuurminator said:

Everyone be honest, when was the last time you ran out of ammo during a battle in a (unmodified) Jagged Alliance game? When was the last time that you actually had to think over how many magazines to carry? The same goes for first aid supplies: in JA2, I had everyone carry two small first aid kits in one stack and never had reason to think further about it. One can argue that actually adding ammo or first aid supplies to a merc's inventory is pointless busywork.

Not very often, I will admit. I believe that that was more down to JA2's style of play than anything else. For me, I would concentrate on using single, aimed shots to the body and head (especially the latter, if possible), rather than ever using full-auto. Full-auto rarely achieved the same lethality unless I could guarantee every bullet would hit and that was more likely to happen when at close range. Even enemies with body armour didn't change that mode of play. As their armour quality increased, it only intensified my need to fire aimed headshots.

Because of that, I never really used much ammo.

Now, if the style of play was different, with less information about the enemy being shown as a text overlay, limitation of body part aiming unless at close range, less accuracy at firing single rounds at moving targets, and no damage reduction when firing full-auto, then all that would create a greater need for more ammo. You might think that with full-auto damage reduction, you would need more bullets to compensate but with that in effect, I think it would just encourage more single shot fire that will do more damage.

What sounds better? Firing single bullets that let you choose what part of the body to aim at, at any range, with no penalty to hit a moving target, while saving on ammo, weight and space? Or, firing full-auto that can't choose to directly hit the head and is 50% weaker in damage per bullet, while needing to carry more ammo for the sake of it?

If those above points can be addressed, I will be quite happy having the chance to load up my mercs with more magazines, so there is enough ammo for full-auto fire when I require it.

Lastly, I like the idea of kitting out everyone before a battle because it feels more realistic to do so. That shared inventory feels more like encouraging lazy play, as well as being fantastical.

[wuXing]

On 5/6/2023 at 6:58 PM, DougS2K said:

The inventory system is in a terrible state overall IMO. Right now, you simply get X amount of space depending on the mercs strength stat but items seem to not factor in weight at all. For example, a rifle takes two slots but we know some rifles are heavier than others. So for example, you could carry say 3 M14's or 3 M60's and they are treated the same yet the M60 weighs about twice as much as an M14. So it's impossible to overburden your mercs strength with this system and no way to increase inventory space if you wanted to carry a bunch of lighter items as there are no backpacks or LBE available. Also, where's the face slot for NVG's, sunglasses, etc.

The way the inventory is done in JA3 is just very basic. I really hope they change it up to something more like JA2 1.13 where you can equip different size backpacks and factor in weight of items.  Also, the shared ammo is really bizarre and a terrible design decision. Moving ammo around between mercs, reloading mags, etc, is a lot more realistic and fun then just having your mercs share a magic box of ammo.

The shared Ammo system is a great one, because spending time on switching them around all mercs within a suad is awefull.

For that reason the merc own inventory should be a little smaller.

A weight system would be great and a "sector inventory", too. Just to drop items and have easy access to all spotted and reachable loot.

Do not spend time in switching staff from one box to another. adjust it, modify it. store it.

[Godzilla]

17 hours ago, Solaris_Wave said:

So, as well as not needing to carry magazines, each merc no longer needs to carry medical items? If they get hit, they can just pull a bandage from the magic invisible supply cart?

Good way of putting it. I understand the reasons for squad inventory like convinience, but I also understand the appeal of WYSIWYG style 100% realistic ish inventory management. (And understand that inventory management was a part of 5he gameplay in 1.13).

JA3 wont die due to a lack of WYSIWYG inventory as there are larger issues like the fact that JA3 has a lot of CRPG elements vs strategy elements but if the devs do at some point want to recreate a vanilla ja2 or 1.13 style if strategy experience they will seek to make inventory more complicated in a good way.

Edited May 13, 2023 by Godzilla

[DougS2K]

3 hours ago, wuXing said:

The shared Ammo system is a great one, because spending time on switching them around all mercs within a suad is awefull.

For that reason the merc own inventory should be a little smaller.

A weight system would be great and a "sector inventory", too. Just to drop items and have easy access to all spotted and reachable loot.

Do not spend time in switching staff from one box to another. adjust it, modify it. store it.

I disagree. Some of us enjoy tweaking the loadouts inbetween missions including stocking everyone with enough mags of ammo.

I think this magical shared ammo is terrible and makes no sense at all. Pulling bullets out of thin air when reloading is very bizarre. Carrying around thousands of rounds including rpg rounds and no one has to actually carry them so there is no weight penalty at all for ammo??? It just makes no sense.

[Solaris_Wave]

One of the advantages of carrying weapons that use smaller ammunition magazines is that you can carry more of them. You can carry more 9mm and .45 ACP mags compared to 5.56mm and 7.62x39mm magazines. That factor increases when you go for larger calibres such as .50BMG. With the shared inventory, none of that matters anymore.

What if you have a multi-barrel 40mm grenade launcher? 40mm grenades are big and take up a lot of room. I guess that no longer matters either. With the shared inventory, you can picture them either being teleported in, a long ammunition link connected to your supply cart, or your merc shouting, "Simmons! More ammunition!" as your dutiful squire rushes up carrying more grenades.

[DonBilbo]

On 5/12/2023 at 5:55 PM, Stuurminator said:

I'm not unsympathetic to the developers' viewpoint here. Sid Meier describes gameplay as "a series of interesting decisions", and one could argue that adding ammunition to a merc's inventory is not an interesting decision. Every merc needs ammo, so there's no deciding whether to bring it or not, but they probably don't need enough to fill up multiple slots (unless each slot only holds one magazine or something, which would just be irritating).

Everyone be honest, when was the last time you ran out of ammo during a battle in a (unmodified) Jagged Alliance game? When was the last time that you actually had to think over how many magazines to carry? The same goes for first aid supplies: in JA2, I had everyone carry two small first aid kits in one stack and never had reason to think further about it. One can argue that actually adding ammo or first aid supplies to a merc's inventory is pointless busywork.

But.

I'm willing to do that busywork for the sake of verisimilitude. Mercenaries just pulling ammo and first aid supplies out of a shared pocket dimension doesn't feel right. And yes, I know it's a abstraction, and that in-universe they're probably just carrying all the ammo and bandages they need from the group supply and restock ones the fighting is over...but it still doesn't feel right.

Maybe I'll get used to it. Maybe, after I've played for a few hours, I won't even notice the difference, and maybe I'll benefit from not having to waste precious seconds mindlessly dragging-and-dropping ammo into the same inventory slot I've devoted for hours already. I'm approaching JA3 with an open mind. But from my position here, before playing the game, it still just doesn't feel right.

I totally agree with your view on this point and also think it feels not right, but on the other hand I also hate wasting time micromanaging items around. So I think they found a good middle ground here that you don‘t have to fiddle around with ammo especially when you find new weapons and start to change them around your mercs which always ment ammo next, but you still can equip them with weapons and mod them which is the more interesting part imo.

lets see how this actually feels when playing. 

[DougS2K]

On 5/13/2023 at 4:33 PM, DonBilbo said:

I totally agree with your view on this point and also think it feels not right, but on the other hand I also hate wasting time micromanaging items around. So I think they found a good middle ground here that you don‘t have to fiddle around with ammo especially when you find new weapons and start to change them around your mercs which always ment ammo next, but you still can equip them with weapons and mod them which is the more interesting part imo.

lets see how this actually feels when playing. 

I never found supplying my mercs with mags of ammo to be a chore and actually enjoyed gearing them up for the next battle. The shared ammo is just not a good design decision IMO. Magically pulling bullets out of thin air to reload and no weight penalty to carry ammo since no one is actually carrying this ammo.

[DonBilbo]

True, it’s not realistic, but it reduces micromanagement, which might be the devs intention. I can live with that, but totally get that’s not for everyone. I’d  love to see an option for that to make both sides happy, but I guess that’s not easy to implement as we would need ammo clips first. 

[maxmustermann]

There is no need to use the shared inventory , you can e.g. give all the 9mil ammo to the uzi - guy , buckshot to someone w ith the shotgun and so on ...  It´s the same with the stuff that can´t be used during combat - parts for mod crafting . Keep it in the shared inventory or let your mecanic carry it . Same with loose medical supplies .

The micromanagement part is reduced if you compare it with JA2 vanilla but for the average X-com player it might be still to much ...

[Godzilla]

1 hour ago, maxmustermann said:

There is no need to use the shared inventory , you can e.g. give all the 9mil ammo to the uzi - guy , buckshot to someone w ith the shotgun and so on ...  It´s the same with the stuff that can´t be used during combat - parts for mod crafting . Keep it in the shared inventory or let your mecanic carry it . Same with loose medical supplies .

The micromanagement part is reduced if you compare it with JA2 vanilla but for the average X-com player it might be still to much ...

Xcom players probably arent as stupid as people make them out to be.

Theres a market for very complex titles look at POE. This is the problem of trying to make a niche title more mass appeal. You would have to make a nichetitle like xcom so different to its original version to even begin approaching mass appeal that it may as well be pointless to try.

Edited May 15, 2023 by Godzilla

[Xeth Nyrrow]

10 hours ago, DonBilbo said:

True, it’s not realistic, but it reduces micromanagement, which might be the devs intention. I can live with that, but totally get that’s not for everyone. I’d  love to see an option for that to make both sides happy, but I guess that’s not easy to implement as we would need ammo clips first. 

I'm sure that's exactly the reason. I'm all for time savers like this so long as they don't detract too much from the game play. In JA2 it sometimes feels like I spend more time managing sector inventory than playing the game. Not having to manage some aspects of inventory in combat does take away from game play though for sure. It's anything from a non issue to a major one depending upon who you ask.

Without playing the game we can only guess as to its impact in JA3 though. I think it's fair to say it does remove a strategic element to the game but it's unknown as to how large of an impact it is. The realism aspect shouldn't be dismissed though as it does make the game, "feel" weird. About as weird as hiring a team of mercs who enter a war torn country with only pistols? Maybe...

 

[DougS2K]

7 hours ago, maxmustermann said:

There is no need to use the shared inventory , you can e.g. give all the 9mil ammo to the uzi - guy , buckshot to someone w ith the shotgun and so on ...  It´s the same with the stuff that can´t be used during combat - parts for mod crafting . Keep it in the shared inventory or let your mecanic carry it . Same with loose medical supplies .

The micromanagement part is reduced if you compare it with JA2 vanilla but for the average X-com player it might be still to much ...

I think a lot of us have also played Xcom, at least I know I have. I think Xcom 2 is a good game but it is a little more casual than the JA2 series in a lot of regards. I still enjoyed it a lot though and played a lot with the long war mod. The thing is though, the devs said they are trying to make a true successor to JA2, not a new Xcom. Taking that into consideration, simplifying inventory like they have is not staying true the series as inventory plays a big part in the game.

[Solaris_Wave]

I would really like to know Haemimont's reasons for going for this method. Maybe one of the developers will create a diary on it as I feel that it has become a big discussion. Most of us aren't happy with the idea, while some of the forum members have said that they don't mind its implementation. Only Haemimont themselves have had chance to test it. I wonder what they had in place before creating the shared inventory, if anything else at all?

Edited May 15, 2023 by Solaris_Wave

[chr_isso]

14 hours ago, Xeth Nyrrow said:

I'm sure that's exactly the reason. I'm all for time savers like this so long as they don't detract too much from the game play. In JA2 it sometimes feels like I spend more time managing sector inventory than playing the game. Not having to manage some aspects of inventory in combat does take away from game play though for sure. It's anything from a non issue to a major one depending upon who you ask.

Without playing the game we can only guess as to its impact in JA3 though. I think it's fair to say it does remove a strategic element to the game but it's unknown as to how large of an impact it is. The realism aspect shouldn't be dismissed though as it does make the game, "feel" weird. About as weird as hiring a team of mercs who enter a war torn country with only pistols? Maybe...

 

Though that is true, i think there is a better approach.
Why not have Magazines AND shared inventory?
But the shared inventory is only available at the map, while personal inventory is used in combat/sector or out of of combat.

Example:
you have 3 9MM mags on your soldier, if he runs out of ammo - your fault.
you need to move to a close location in the back, where the "cart" with your shared inventory is.
then fill up the three magazines and get back into battle.

if you finished the battle, you find 10 more 9MM Mags.
You decide to transfer all bullets into shared mag, the Magazines will be dissolved and you will just have a big box of 9MM Ammo.
After he battle you can one-click "Fill-Up used Magazines and Guns" and all soldiers will reload and fill up their mags.

Eases the micro management without taking away the little complexity of magazines and inventory management.

[Xeth Nyrrow]

7 hours ago, chr_isso said:

Though that is true, i think there is a better approach.
Why not have Magazines AND shared inventory?
But the shared inventory is only available at the map, while personal inventory is used in combat/sector or out of of combat.

Yeah I think we're all pretty much in agreement that this is the best way to do it. I wouldn't stop at only mags though, nothing from the shared inventory should be able to be accessed in combat. This might already be the case, we don't know, except for ammo which apparently was made an exception.

[Remi1987]

Yeah, Inventory Management. Just like reloading happens automatically once a sector is cleared, we can redistribute bullets in a certain way or have people preconfigured to carry max 2 full magazines for example, rest lands in a mule. It is just a terrible idea to have this all shared; it's childish and again prevents crisis situations where one merc is out of ammo. THAT's the moment I'm looking for personally, look, oh shit, how to get out of this now. Many of this is prevented, which really bums me. Same for cover, it is already shown it is 'destructable'. Guys, let me FIND OUT it is destructable.

JA3 needs a pro review, seriously. I've seen footage with MINES places INSIDE A HOUSE. Guys, for real? Why not boobytraps trip wires, or something. These are tactical blunders that really hurt the game imo.

Edited May 20, 2023 by Remi1987

[Solaris_Wave]

18 minutes ago, Remi1987 said:

JA3 needs a pro review, seriously. I've seen footage with MINES places INSIDE A HOUSE. Guys, for real? Why not boobytraps trip wires, or something. These are tactical blunders that really hurt the game imo.

You think that's bad? I once found a landmine in my bowl of cereal. That put a downer on the whole day.

[Jaywalker]

On 5/12/2023 at 1:02 AM, Godzilla said:

"devs remove key feature of all strategy and tactical games like CTH"

I sleep

CTH is not a key feature, it's just a numerical display of success probability for whatever method of abstraction the designers chose for the game to have.

You don't have CTH for attacks that don't target a unit directly, you don't get CTH in games where the ballistics are simulated instead of pre-calculated, and you don't get CTH where information obfuscation is part of the risk-management. This isn't the first time, it's basically a legacy for vanilla JA2 players, it shouldn't be a big deal.

[Elite77]

On 5/6/2023 at 5:37 PM, Fredd said:

I have seen some of the demo streams. And from what I cans see there seem to be limited possibility to store weapons and stuff between the missions. In a base warehouse or similar. This is important for the fun of the game. That inventory space is not limited. So that you can store weapons for particular missions. Where you don't have to throw away weapons due limited inventory space. Maybe you want to keep a weapon that is good in close quarters for a mission where this is good. Instead of having to throw it away because you cant carry it around when you don't need it in most of the missions. 

I understand what you're saying, I'm sure there will be a possibility to do that, or you can just keep weapons on people. Unless they're very restrictive with money, you should have plenty of mercs who you can use to store items.

[Povok]

On 5/12/2023 at 5:36 PM, Solaris_Wave said:

So, as well as not needing to carry magazines, each merc no longer needs to carry medical items? If they get hit, they can just pull a bandage from the magic invisible supply cart? Are there any penalties to drawing from the shared inventory instead of the merc's own? Will it cost more action points?

Also, what about support weapons with large ammunition? A merc could carry an RPG but thanks to the shared inventory, now doesn't have to worry about the weight and space of extra rockets. As long as there are enough in the supply mothership, that merc can move around unencumbered and reload to their heart's content.

I'm having exactly these "concerns" especially because of heavy weapon specialists. I know every time I was preparing for an engagement I was carefuly considering what I am going to load up my heavy weapon guy with... things being HEAVY and all.

It also impacts the tactical phase of the game. You can't really carry around a HMG, RPG, a mortar AND ammunition for all of these...

 

On 5/12/2023 at 5:55 PM, Stuurminator said:

Everyone be honest, when was the last time you ran out of ammo during a battle in a (unmodified) Jagged Alliance game? When was the last time that you actually had to think over how many magazines to carry? The same goes for first aid supplies: in JA2, I had everyone carry two small first aid kits in one stack and never had reason to think further about it. One can argue that actually adding ammo or first aid supplies to a merc's inventory is pointless busywork.

But.

I'm willing to do that busywork for the sake of verisimilitude. Mercenaries just pulling ammo and first aid supplies out of a shared pocket dimension doesn't feel right. And yes, I know it's a abstraction, and that in-universe they're probably just carrying all the ammo and bandages they need from the group supply and restock ones the fighting is over...but it still doesn't feel right.

Maybe I'll get used to it. Maybe, after I've played for a few hours, I won't even notice the difference, and maybe I'll benefit from not having to waste precious seconds mindlessly dragging-and-dropping ammo into the same inventory slot I've devoted for hours already. I'm approaching JA3 with an open mind. But from my position here, before playing the game, it still just doesn't feel right.

Running out of ammo - rarely, I did always check ammo though - and usually equipped aid kit (stacks) only to half a squad.

It's still a vivid memory after all this time when I repositioned two mercs so that one would throw appropriate ammo clip to a merc that then continued the fight. (Of course there were also missed attempts whet the clip would just hit the merc but this also nicely corelates to real life like when I throw keys to my girlfriend and they just bounce of of her. :-D)

As said it just doesn't feel right but I do get it it's more simplified and takes some micromanagement away that might be considered unnecessary by many.

 

Like it was also mentioned before:

Tactical battle: personal inventory only

Out of battle: shared inventory is available to grab from in order to prepare for battle (Like sector inventory or "supply cart" with somewhat limited capacity that's dragged around between sectors? Perhaps both even?)

 

[ninjalex]

I'm afraid the magical pocket universe of ammunition/weapons/tools takes away immersion. It's also one of the things that made early game JA challenging. Several times I had to choose another weapon because I didn't have the right ammo, or enough of it to go into battle as well as healing kits. And if I had some ammo, did I give it all to my specialist or divvy it up, and when shit actually hits the fan, who needed the bullets most?

It's still possible to hit all of these challenges, but shared inventory in combat is really immersion breaking. It might be too QOL with a high immersion cost. Imagining being pinned down in a building and then suddenly oooooh I can just pull out my grenade from my magical bag of holding because the situation requires this. Means you always have the optimal tool at your disposal.