Instead of complaining lets find a solution

[Godzilla]

4 minutes ago, DougS2K said:

I don't want to watch your video, sorry. Like I said before, I'm here to discuss the game. I'm not interested in all the other things you talk about.

Its not about the video, its about all the other times devs said things like "dont like it dont buy it"

Its never good to have a major rift in your community even if the devs think its for the right reasons. And in this case Im not sure it is.

Edited May 7, 2023 by Godzilla

[DougS2K]

Just now, Godzilla said:

Its never good to have a major rift in your community even if the devs think its for the right reasons. 

Sure, that makes sense. Luckily so far, we don't have a "major rift" in this community. 

[Godzilla]

9 minutes ago, DougS2K said:

Sure, that makes sense. Luckily so far, we don't have a "major rift" in this community. 

There are entire press articles written about how dumb it is to not include CTH in JA3.

This is not what you want to happen.

There have been multiple posts about the topic in last few days alone, I checked.

This is a mistake. Pretending the problem doesnt exist wont stop it from existing.

[DougS2K]

1 minute ago, Godzilla said:

There are entire press articles written about how dumb it is to not include CTH in JA3.

This is not what you want to happen.

There have been multiple posts about the topic in last few days alone, I checked.

This is a mistake. Pretending the problem doesnt exist wont stop it from existing.

I don't care about press articles, most of them written by people that haven't played JA2. I care about what the actual fanbase thinks. If I did care about the press articles and their opinions, I would be commenting on their forums and not here. 

[Godzilla]

3 minutes ago, DougS2K said:

I don't care about press articles, most of them written by people that haven't played JA2. I care about what the actual fanbase thinks. If I did care about the press articles and their opinions, I would be commenting on their forums and not here. 

I dont disagree that the press can often be stupid or uninformed or made up of the kind of demographic that doesnt like certain products or genres etc, but Im not sure this is one of these cases.

[Solaris_Wave]

I think that during the course of play, those that really wanted visible hit percentages might realise that it wasn't as necessary as they thought.

[Raeven]

I don't doubt that you and many others share the same opinion about whether including CtH % is a good idea, but I think it's equally clear that many do not, both here and in the steam discussions. In no way has it been a clear landslide either way, I looked over those discussions and there are many proponents on both sides of this debate. 

Characterizing this debate has having a clear and obvious 'correct' answer is pretty silly. After all, most of us here were massive fans of the first two games, neither of which included CtH info, despite being technologically capable of doing so. Obviously we enjoyed them quite a lot, so comparing this project to the star wars prequels because of a decision to maintain a design element from the original game is... pretty stupid.

My personal opinion? I liked the old games, and I like the old and new X-COM / XCOM games too, which showed CtH %. Showing CtH or not is honestly a pretty small element, of a much, *much* larger picture. I don't think it's going to make or break the game either way. If the devs have played it and find the experience to be better without it, I'm inclined to believe them given that I've never played the game myself. Anyway, you know damned well that adding CtH is gonna be the first 3rd party mod for this game that gets made, so who cares? Wait three months for someone to make it, crank up the difficulty, and play it your way. I don't think this has anything to do with the devs 'doubling down on a bad decision' or being 'in a tough spot'. It's a design choice that two other development teams who made games in this series agreed with.

Chill out, homie. No one cares. Don't like it, make the mod yourself. Or just wait a couple months for it.

[Godzilla]

1 hour ago, Raeven said:

I don't doubt that you and many others share the same opinion about whether including CtH % is a good idea, but I think it's equally clear that many do not, both here and in the steam discussions. In no way has it been a clear landslide either way, I looked over those discussions and there are many proponents on both sides of this debate. 

Characterizing this debate has having a clear and obvious 'correct' answer is pretty silly. After all, most of us here were massive fans of the first two games, neither of which included CtH info, despite being technologically capable of doing so. Obviously we enjoyed them quite a lot, so comparing this project to the star wars prequels because of a decision to maintain a design element from the original game is... pretty stupid.

My personal opinion? I liked the old games, and I like the old and new X-COM / XCOM games too, which showed CtH %. Showing CtH or not is honestly a pretty small element, of a much, *much* larger picture. I don't think it's going to make or break the game either way. If the devs have played it and find the experience to be better without it, I'm inclined to believe them given that I've never played the game myself. Anyway, you know damned well that adding CtH is gonna be the first 3rd party mod for this game that gets made, so who cares? Wait three months for someone to make it, crank up the difficulty, and play it your way. I don't think this has anything to do with the devs 'doubling down on a bad decision' or being 'in a tough spot'. It's a design choice that two other development teams who made games in this series agreed with.

Chill out, homie. No one cares. Don't like it, make the mod yourself. Or just wait a couple months for it.

There appears to be many proponents of no cth because it also includes all the people who would support ANYTHING the devs did.

Its not true support. Theres a lot of people who are not actively analyzing the information told and therefore they will support blindly anything theyre told about even if they shouldnt. Its not true parity. Most people who see things wrong (in this case) are informed those who dont wont see it until its too late.

Is no cth a deal breaker? perhaps not but its one of the big problems the project could be facing.

Edited May 8, 2023 by Godzilla

[DougS2K]

2 hours ago, Godzilla said:

There appears to be many proponents of no cth because it also includes all the people who would support ANYTHING the devs did.

Incorrect. I support no CTH but don't support other decisions they've made like basic inventory, shared ammo, no Bobby Ray's equivalent, etc. In fact, a lot of people that comment on this topic will even say they see bigger issues than no CTH indicator. 

At the end of the day, the devs are going to make the game they want to make regardless of our opinions at this stage. Rumors are flowing of a summer release and if that's true, that means they are not going to make any big changes now and will be focusing on finishing up what's needed and squashing bugs.

 

[Taurean]

16 hours ago, Godzilla said:

So am I to take it correctly that none of you have an idea for how to get out of this situation, which doesnt include "you want CTH (or dont want CTH in this case) you just dont know it yet"?

I gave good options. Didn't you read my answer?

[chr_isso]

1 hour ago, DougS2K said:

Incorrect. I support no CTH but don't support other decisions they've made like basic inventory, shared ammo, no Bobby Ray's equivalent, etc. In fact, a lot of people that comment on this topic will even say they see bigger issues than no CTH indicator. 

At the end of the day, the devs are going to make the game they want to make regardless of our opinions at this stage. Rumors are flowing of a summer release and if that's true, that means they are not going to make any big changes now and will be focusing on finishing up what's needed and squashing bugs.

 

Totally agree.
Plus: Missing Magazines (which was a huge part of JA2), missing Face-Inventory (Night Vision, Sunglasses) and many more.

I really wished they would aim for christmas and take their time but since they announced the collectors edition already, summer release is to be expected.
What a pity - too many games have been rushed to marked, have been doomed and then evolved into decent or even good games.
but the damage has already been caused.

I don't mind waiting another year if that means the game adds features, is more balanced and well-rounded. but investors .. would disagree, i bet.

[Solaris_Wave]

The problem with this thread is that the thread title is basically saying, "Instead of complaining that CtH is not in the game, we can all agree that it should be put back in."

None of that is correct. Chance to hit display (not actual calculation) was removed before the game was publicly revealed, so therefore, it has been a design decision for a long time. Haemimont seem to like the idea and further play-through and development continues with that already established.

"Ah, but you're wrong. I'm right, you all know I'm right. I am the template to which all others should be judged. Hear me roar."

Most of us actually don't agree on seeing CtH and are pretty secure in that decision. Are we an echo chamber that fanatically follows Haemimont? No, not at all. Several of us don't like the damage reduction for full-auto, most of us (it seems) do not like the inventory system, and there are multiple other things we all seem unsure about.

There is plenty more that, at least I, consider to be greater issues.

As for the release date, I don't think that is set in stone. Plus, any site that is just looking to sell something as a general retailer shouldn't be an accurate reference. They can just put a date in and change it again at a later point.

Haemimont and THQ haven't specifically set a date as far as I know.

Edited May 8, 2023 by Solaris_Wave

[Godzilla]

5 hours ago, Taurean said:

I gave good options. Didn't you read my answer?

I dont recall any good options sorry. You can try posting them again...

[Godzilla]

1 hour ago, Solaris_Wave said:

The problem with this thread is that the thread title is basically saying, "Instead of complaining that CtH is not in the game, we can all agree that it should be put back in."

None of that is correct. Chance to hit display (not actual calculation) was removed before the game was publicly revealed, so therefore, it has been a design decision for a long time. Haemimont seem to like the idea and further play-through and development continues with that already established.

"Ah, but you're wrong. I'm right, you all know I'm right. I am the template to which all others should be judged. Hear me roar."

Most of us actually don't agree on seeing CtH and are pretty secure in that decision. Are we an echo chamber that fanatically follows Haemimont? No, not at all. Several of us don't like the damage reduction for full-auto, most of us (it seems) do not like the inventory system, and there are multiple other things we all seem unsure about.

There is plenty more that, at least I, consider to be greater issues.

As for the release date, I don't think that is set in stone. Plus, any site that is just looking to sell something as a general retailer shouldn't be an accurate reference. They can just put a date in and change it again at a later point.

Haemimont and THQ haven't specifically set a date as far as I know.

Thats not a problem, its a feature.

Im not interested in talking to people who dont think removing cth is contentious. There are countless forum posts about this topic and at least one press article.

If even the press is picking up on this...and picking up on this in the preview section, theres a big problem.

[Godzilla]

6 hours ago, DougS2K said:

Incorrect. I support no CTH but don't support other decisions they've made like basic inventory, shared ammo, no Bobby Ray's equivalent, etc. In fact, a lot of people that comment on this topic will even say they see bigger issues than no CTH indicator. 

At the end of the day, the devs are going to make the game they want to make regardless of our opinions at this stage. Rumors are flowing of a summer release and if that's true, that means they are not going to make any big changes now and will be focusing on finishing up what's needed and squashing bugs.

 

Very correct, most people who are apologizing for the devs are apologizing not because they have actually thought about the issues, but instead are apologizing because they havent and want JA to do well.

Its not a real disagreement, almost all of the real fans see what and where the problems are.

Most of you are just responding because you want this issue to go away and for you to return to your ignorant bliss as you await the release.

I hope JA3 does very well, because you know who will be the first person to remind you that I told you so: me.

Better hope that in august or december it doesnt turn out to be a dud...

Edited May 8, 2023 by Godzilla

[Xeth Nyrrow]

14 minutes ago, Godzilla said:

Very correct, most people who are apologizing for the devs are apologizing not because they have actually thought about the issues, but instead are apologizing because they havent and want JA to do well.

Its not a real disagreement, almost all of the real fans see what and where the problems are.

Most of you are just responding because you want this issue to go away and for you to return to your ignorant bliss as you await the release.

I hope JA3 does very well, because you know who will be the first person to remind you that I told you so: me.

Better hope that in august or december it doesnt turn out to be a dud...

You are much more likely to affect change by being kind, open to ideas and helpful than vitriolic as you have been. I have helped change be made to other games by being an active member in the community and garnering support for what I wanted to be changed. Your efforts here and on Steam actually have the opposite effect of pushing people and developers away from you and your goals because of the way you act. It's not the CtH issue going away people want to go away at this point but rather you and your extremely contentious attitude toward the subject. You aren't interested in discussing it, just trying to label people against your opinion as wrong or ignorant.

[Solaris_Wave]

33 minutes ago, Godzilla said:

Its not a real disagreement, almost all of the real fans see what and where the problems are.

Most of you are just responding because you want this issue to go away and for you to return to your ignorant bliss as you await the release.

So we are not real fans, then? If that is the case, then why are we on the official forums?

[Godzilla]

5 minutes ago, Solaris_Wave said:

So we are not real fans, then? If that is the case, then why are we on the official forums?

Youre a real fan, and ironically the person whos been least defensive of JA in its current state.

I saw your list of propositions for what you want JA to include, nice work.

[Godzilla]

29 minutes ago, Xeth Nyrrow said:

You are much more likely to affect change by being kind, open to ideas and helpful than vitriolic as you have been. I have helped change be made to other games by being an active member in the community and garnering support for what I wanted to be changed. Your efforts here and on Steam actually have the opposite effect of pushing people and developers away from you and your goals because of the way you act. It's not the CtH issue going away people want to go away at this point but rather you and your extremely contentious attitude toward the subject. You aren't interested in discussing it, just trying to label people against your opinion as wrong or ignorant.

I dont agree that Ive ever been unkind or un open minded. If I wasnt I wouldnt be posting this post, would I?
Just sounds like you want me to be so open minded or generous that I change my opinion, or start being an apologist.

Trying to erode my resolve is not going to happen. The opposite is far more likely.

There is no nice or kind way to deliver some news or some criticism. If that is the way that it will have to be, then I am fine with this.

Edited May 8, 2023 by Godzilla

[Solaris_Wave]

10 minutes ago, Godzilla said:

Youre a real fan, and ironically the person whos been least defensive of JA in its current state.

I saw your list of propositions for what you want JA to include, nice work.

Fans aren't fanatics. Fans are allowed to criticise and suggest features. By posting on the official forums, you get the greatest chance for the developers to see your proposals.

However, it looks as if you said that all the real fans can see what the problem is, and that is that CtH display apparently needs to be in.

[Solaris_Wave]

At the end of the day, @Godzilla, I do understand your concerns. You want JA3 to be the best it can be, not another missed opportunity. Everybody has a different idea of what the best version would be. It might just mean that we have to resort to mods to have our ideal version.

[Godzilla]

9 minutes ago, Solaris_Wave said:

Fans aren't fanatics. Fans are allowed to criticise and suggest features. By posting on the official forums, you get the greatest chance for the developers to see your proposals.

However, it looks as if you said that all the real fans can see what the problem is, and that is that CtH display apparently needs to be in.

Yes. Real fans whoarent passively watching from the side lines and who are active on the forums and are taking an active interest, but also, and perhaps more importantly have the experience and knowledge of the genre to spot failure early. They also actively analyze and discuss the proposed features. A lot of what I see here is "just trust the devs" or "why are you complaining when everythings fine" type mentality. Blind happy content passive customers criticizing the one who isnt content or passive and is actively scanning the environment for problems and issues., and interrogating what he sees.

We are the early warning system if you prefer.

Edited May 8, 2023 by Godzilla

[Solaris_Wave]

I have played many turn-based squad games since the 1980s, some with CtH and some without. It didn't always work. While it was nice to have, it really created anger when your almost guaranteed shot would miss, followed by another guaranteed shot missing. You'd then see the AI-controlled enemy perfectly hitting and killing your character. Cue swearing and reloading the game to before that took place.

Some might say, "Just trust the Devs." or that "Everything is fine." but I don't for several things. I am concerned about certain design decisions but personally, a visible CtH is not one of them.

As I said, that is just a personal viewpoint. I got attacked by @anon474 for wanting more realism (and I don't just mean that he disagreed either).

[DougS2K]

1 hour ago, Godzilla said:

Very correct, most people who are apologizing for the devs are apologizing not because they have actually thought about the issues, but instead are apologizing because they havent and want JA to do well.

There is literally no one "apologizing" for the devs. Another strawman. 

1 hour ago, Godzilla said:

Its not a real disagreement, almost all of the real fans see what and where the problems are.

So the majority of people are not real fans then??? You CIA or something? Maybe a mind reader? Tells us how you know our inner thoughts so well.

1 hour ago, Godzilla said:

Most of you are just responding because you want this issue to go away and for you to return to your ignorant bliss as you await the release.

We respond to voice our opinion, just like you. We don't see it as an issue because it's the decision we agree with. I'm not sure why you can't understand that and continue to project your opinions onto others. We get it, your not happy with no CTH. That sucks in your case but the devs have already made this decision months ago and it's what the majority of the fans want.

1 hour ago, Godzilla said:

I hope JA3 does very well, because you know who will be the first person to remind you that I told you so: me.

So if it doesn't do well, it's because of CTH only? Damn, you sure put a lot of weight on CTH. To me, the gameplay overall is most important and right now battles play pretty well without CTH but there are some perks I have issue with.

1 hour ago, Godzilla said:

Better hope that in august or december it doesnt turn out to be a dud...

Why? What happens if it does turn out to be a dud? It will simply get added to the list of failed remakes. So far though, this looks to be the best remake of the series yet. 

[Godzilla]

15 minutes ago, Solaris_Wave said:

I have played many turn-based squad games since the 1980s, some with CtH and some without. It didn't always work. While it was nice to have, it really created anger when your almost guaranteed shot would miss, followed by another guaranteed shot missing. You'd then see the AI-controlled enemy perfectly hitting and killing your character. Cue swearing and reloading the game to before that took place.

Some might say, "Just trust the Devs." or that "Everything is fine." but I don't for several things. I am concerned about certain design decisions but personally, a visible CtH is not one of them.

As I said, that is just a personal viewpoint. I got attacked by @anon474 for wanting more realism (and I don't just mean that he disagreed either).

Im sorry to hear that I'm sure the attack was unwarranted.

And as the more senior forum member Im sure youve also seen how much more passionate and knee jerk the other defenses of no cth have been. Theres a reason you're not entirely sold on no cth.