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Combat distance


CatsPaw
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Yeah, games (over all) used to be alot more unforgiving and unintuitive. You had to learn from your mistakes in a way you seldom se in todays games. Learn things trough extensive reading of ingame text to be able to find locations or solve puzzles, search trough the manual of gameplay mechanics, etc. I remember drawing my own maps by hand on a piece of paper next to me to be able to get trough dungeons in some old game.

A large portion of gamers today just want to sit down, relax and play the game.

Maybe JA3 need something along the lines of what some newer RPGs apply when it comes to difficulties. I am thinking of all the choices you have for instance in Pathfinder Kingmaker and Wrath of the Righteous.

A casual mode for those who just want to relax and play, whit the complex parts removed or toned down to "1".

A easy mode thats applys more of the complex features but is still forgiving.

A normal mode.

A JA3 Core/hard mode.

And JA3 "1.13" mode, where everything is cranked up to "11". 😁

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13 hours ago, GODSPEED said:

Blizzard themselves are not the ones who worked on Diablo II, they hired a small team to do the work

So isn't this a great example? The product was developed by a team without special features and funds. But the game is successful. Despite the mechanics and the 2000 interface. The publisher did not give her a price tag for the indie project. The publisher appreciated it more expensive than many new games: XCOM 2: Chimera Squad, Gears Tactics, Wasteland 3, Phoenix Point (I think because they understood that the main audience is 35-45, and they are ready to pay). The main reason for negative reviews to it is the servers not working for 3 weeks. The game began to be sold, and the servers were not available half the time. But this is a purely technical problem. Blizzard themselves have stated that the success of Diablo II: Resurrected will force them to intensify the development of Diablo III.

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19 hours ago, GODSPEED said:

When we look at gaming as a whole, the vast majority of games have become simplified over the time

This is a trend. Each trend has a period, i.e. beginning, development and end. Humanity cannot simplify everything indefinitely. The next step will then be the rejection of reading, writing and the simplest arithmetic operations. It's difficult...
In general, it's funny that we are discussing the very fact of the difficulty of the game "JA 2". She is primitive. Why simplify this game yet? The allocation of 20 or 100 action points is a daunting task for a modern person... Are you serious? I have already cited Starcraft 2 as an example, where even now people aged 14-18 calculate the opening of the game up to a second. When and on what will they spend each unit of minerals and gas. At what second will the required building be built when an improvement is ordered for your units. At a high level, this happens depending on the development of the opponent. People click 200 - 350 times a minute. There is complexity there. There really sometimes, after a tense fight, you get tired, which you feel physically. And the thought appears "in the next half hour, I'm not ready to repeat it."
And "JA2" is a game for those who just want to come home and relax. Deepening the JA2 mechanic won't make JA3 difficult. Will make it more variable and realistic. Why should this scare players away?
Let's take the Race genre as an example. At the dawn of their formation, they had primitive physics and mechanics. But gradually physics and mechanics became more realistic. There are many racing simulators now. Is it more difficult than before? Yes. Is the complexity of the players off-putting? No. Everything is exactly the opposite. People want more realism, they like it. It provides opportunities to experience emotions without endangering life. And the more realistic, the more emotions. Why is it wrong with JA 3?
Well, for those who want absolute relaxation, there is always Angry Birds.

 

20 hours ago, GODSPEED said:

We older gamers have played those and we are used to the type of "harder" gameplay, with sometimes clunky controls, very little help, almsot no direction to help

 

20 hours ago, GODSPEED said:

old DOS games that required extra work to make them function like using mem manager to free up virtual ram. We get used to a way of doing things and it is hard to look backwards

This is what modern games should get rid of. This is exactly what is required of the developers. This is, in fact, the concept of "unnecessary complexity".

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13 hours ago, CatsPaw said:

Humanity cannot simplify everything indefinitely. The next step will then be the rejection of reading, writing and the simplest arithmetic operations.

I do not know how the situation is were you live, but my own experience is: Do not underestimate this species instinctive laziness! 

13 hours ago, CatsPaw said:

where even now people aged 14-18 calculate the opening of the game up to a second. When and on what will they spend each unit of minerals and gas

Of courses they can, but that is to get a competetive edge to other players. Much like calculating the best DPS for a mp shooter. I do not really see that people will play JA in a competetive manner.

13 hours ago, CatsPaw said:

And "JA2" is a game for those who just want to come home and relax. Deepening the JA2 mechanic won't make JA3 difficult. Will make it more variable and realistic. Why should this scare players away?

Again I can only write out of my own experience. But out of those I know IRL who played JA2 and enjoyed it, those people have a bit of a "nerdy" characteristic. Enjoying solving problems or spending hours perfecting something related to a hobby of theirs.

I my self do not enjoy playing JA when I am tiered and want to relax, because then I make bad decisions in the game.

I simply belive the developer's have a hard task at hand making a game that is complex enough for us old fans of the series, yet accessible and intuitiv enough for those new to the series.

13 hours ago, CatsPaw said:

Let's take the Race genre as an example.

I agree, but the racing genre is a big and very diverse one. Racing simulators are not for everyone. Some just want a "Need for Speed" experience.

Obviously the developers have a good enough idea of what game they want to make that THQ gave it the go ahead. And THQ belive that the game will be profitable enough to risk the money developing the game. We can hope. We can beg. Pray to whatever diety of our choosing. But until a real gameplay reveal we do not know what to expect.

Again CatsPaw, I hope you are right and we get the complexity we want. I am just very unsure that the market is large enough.

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2 hours ago, Hendrix said:

Again CatsPaw, I hope you are right and we get the complexity we want. I am just very unsure that the market is large enough.

 

23 hours ago, CatsPaw said:

 Diablo II

I was trying to find a way to answer your previous posts and wasn't sure how to without writting a book.

 

Hendrix pretty much summed up what I had in mind.

 

In Jagged Alliance, I can personally spend 1-2 hours in a game session just looking over equipment and giving a different kit of equipment to a large squad of mercs. I am like that.

Jagged Alliance has a nerdy side to it that sucks some of us right into it more than just doing batttles after battles after battles.

 

Diablo II is the opposite, that is one of the most played games of its generation by how many players? Almost anyone you talk to has played it, and in all my gamer friends, I've never even met a single person who even knows what Jagged Alliance is. In Diablo, it is fast and easy to get in with almost no learning curve and it is easy to pick up even if you didn't play for years.

Jagged Alliance 2 has a learning curve that required me to read through the manual the first time I tried playing it because I didn't know how to play it at all.

Most ppl hate reading.

I can almost take a guess that most real JA fans are probably the type who enjoyed going through game manuals as much as playing the game.

 

It is for the niche of gamers like those who like wargames (not Starcraft, I mean games like Hearts of Iron style games).

 

I want so much complexity, but such a game would not sell and could not even sell on a console.

 

 

Consoles.

This game will release on consoles as well, so they will be making many simplifications to adapt.

 

Like Hendrix said, it isn't what I want, it's an unfortunate reality of the generation we are in.

 

Your arguments are all good, and as much as I appreciate you sharing them, we also want what you want, it's not us you have to win over, it's the devs!! 🍻

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3 hours ago, Hendrix said:

I do not really see that people will play JA in a competetive manner

Yes, I agree. That's why I wrote "JA2 is a game for those who just want to come home and relax". It does not require finding optimal paths. Artificial intelligence forgives most mistakes. You can always load the game from the previous moment. This is not chess, where one move can decide the outcome of a duel that lasted several hours.

 

3 hours ago, Hendrix said:

I am just very unsure that the market is large enough

Agree. The genre as a whole doesn't have many fans. And by simplifying the mechanics, this audience will not grow. Yes, there will come a certain number of people who love simplification, but also a certain number of impatient simplifications will go away. I think that for this project, reaching the entire JA2 audience will be a success. There are not so few of them, they are devoted to the game, willing to pay for it a little more than it is worth. There are not many games to which there are so many discussion forums. And those who have the same number or more, as a rule, TOP projects with a huge budget.
Where are the millions of new players at Phoenix Point? They are not here.
The problem is that everyone no longer believes in the very fact of releasing a game similar to JA2. But that JA2 fan base is enough for JA3. Given the huge number of games coming out now.

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8 hours ago, GODSPEED said:

In Jagged Alliance, I can personally spend 1-2 hours in a game session just looking over equipment and giving a different kit of equipment to a large squad of mercs. I am like that.

Mod 1.13 is not complicated by its mechanics. Mod 1.13 is complex in that it is open and for the most part is available for independent modification by the user. If desired, most of these mechanics can be changed in any direction of complexity. Mod 1.13 is difficult in that it is difficult to stop yourself in terms of tuning and testing the result. But this is also part of the gameplay. And the people who are doing this are also the audience of this game. This cannot be neglected.

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