Jagged Alliance 3 - THQ Nordic Showcase Trailer

[Kordanor]

Dont always throw xcom into the comparison. That makes absolutely no sense.

Yes, XCom is maybe the first game which overhauled the graphics, and what it did is also simplifying the game mechanics.

I actually do hate XCom to a certain degree. Well, not "hate hate", but I tried to play it and couldn't. It just feels terribly wrong to me.

But various other games already showed that one thing has nothing to do with the other.

Phoenix Point being a great example. It has basically nothing to do with Firaxis XCom in terms of Game Mechanics, hence it looks similar, because...well...its 3D and modernized.

I already explained in the other thread that Overwatch is nowhere similar than in XCom and likely even more realistic. I think its a choice I would probably have done the same way.

Just recently I had someone saying in a forum on how clunky the JA2 interface was (well, it was on the world map, but still).
I also dont see anything wrong in being "locked" onto the enemy when aiming further, or deciding that you want to go burst mode instead, which means that you don't memorize hotkeys to switch to burst and so on anymore. I think this choice is very reasonable and also goes hand in hand with the decision of being able to hit additional body party like feet and hands which would be impossible to do on normal view.

From the trailers and screenshots we can see regarding landscape:

Djungle
Steppe
Desert
"Rocky Desert"
Villages
Mines
Bunkers (or something like that)

So what we haven't seen is something like a pine forest or a snow covered area. And well, considering its situated in Central Africa this time, this is something where it makes sense we are not going to see it.

We also got indications of day/night and weather.
We have a few scenes with a sandstorm. We also have this scene in the new trailer (the overwatch one) which looks like a battle at night. In addition we can also see in the weapon attachment screen that there is a flashlight mounted to the weapon, which only makes sense at night.

Old Screenshots and Trailer also showed something at the top left showing "Clear Whether" ans similar. That not present in the new trailer anymore. Maybe because its just not necessary to show.

I think the new trailer showed quite a few new things, but there is indeed lots of stuff left out. Like we are still at very few characters, most characters shown already showed up in the first trailer, though the hiring menu in the first trailer indicated there are many more characters.
We still have hardly any idea about the management system.
Also very brief idea about character system (we know the have signature abilities and the old stats, you can see that Barry got a gain when he got shot, but we never saw the full system)

[Kordanor]

5 hours ago, Biff said:

The grenades seem to work like Back in Action, where one grenade is actually a stack of grenades. It also looks like they don't need repairing, so no more "Doh!" grenade failures.

 

Not sure if you saw that, but grenades have a "Mishap chance", in the new trailer that was at 17%.

My biggest fear for grenades is a different though:

Jagged Alliance didnt have realistic ranges for weapons in the past, and will not have them in the new game. Thats fine.
But it seems like grenades can be thrown quite a long way (also see first trailer). The second trailer actually showed an enemy type as grenadier.

A couple of other games showed already that having enemies throwing grenades at you from basically the unknown at max shooting range, with a almost 100% hit chance and devastating damage is nothing but frustrating. So I hope this is not the case here.

[Flowable]

I hope the game gets proper voice acting. That's one of the only concern i have thusfar. Trailer looks good and i have good hopes for Haemimont Games to pull Jagged Alliance into the 21st century, in a way that truly could be a reboot for the game. For me it looks like there is passion in this project and therefore being more than just a skin for X-COM. 

[Hendrix]

On 8/14/2022 at 9:43 PM, Flowable said:

I hope the game gets proper voice acting. That's one of the only concern i have thusfar.

I could not agree more! This would probably make or break the game for me personally.

 

The first trailer gave me some xcom-vibes. But this new one reminds me more of Wasteland 3.

Overall I think it looks good but still in a rough early alpha kind of state.

[GODSPEED]

On 8/14/2022 at 1:17 PM, Kordanor said:

I already explained in the other thread that Overwatch is nowhere similar than in XCom and likely even more realistic. I think its a choice I would probably have done the same way.

Just recently I had someone saying in a forum on how clunky the JA2 interface was (well, it was on the world map, but still).
I also dont see anything wrong in being "locked" onto the enemy when aiming further, or deciding that you want to go burst mode instead, which means that you don't memorize hotkeys to switch to burst and so on anymore. I think this choice is very reasonable and also goes hand in hand with the decision of being able to hit additional body party like feet and hands which would be impossible to do on normal view.

I said these things.


OVERWATCH

Oversimplification of an interrupt system. Why?

Interrupts are dynamic; representative of hearing, sight, reaction, reflexes and abilities. Based on RPG mechanics and experience level.

NEVER guaranteed means that, YOU, through your experience with individual mercs, will weigh your chances when deciding whether you want to save AP's in case there might be an interrupt or not.


Why is this important? It requires a basic level of RPG stats and mechanics and comparison between mercs and enemies. This feels more "natural" than setting a cone that guarantees and reaction shot. That, feels like a card game, or a board game, where you have an ability in your hand, and decide to play it in exchange of xx points. It removes the necessity for Roleplaying elements, stats and at the same time removes some of the core layers that made Jagged Alliance a ROLE PLAYING game.



UI LOCK ON

I don't see how this is better for a fluid gameplay experience. In JA 1 & 2, the cursor never locks to an enemy. Yet it was always super simple to simply right click to aim more, and left-click to shoot. Why can't the firemode be placed near the image of your gun?

In JA2, the only times aiming body parts is hard is because of the perspective and when enemies are very near one another and playing on higher resolutions can mean there is some body overlap. But looking through the video of JA3, the camera is so often zoomed-in that body parts are EASY to distinguish and identify.

Why can't the mouse cursor simply be free and you simply aim at the body part you want to shoot at?

Instead, we will have a system that needs you to select an enemy, then select body part, then select aim level.. but then what it you are quickly looking over your options.. you have unlock the enemy to now to select the next one and repeat?


Why? Why these EXTRA clicks to achieve the same thing?


Because: simplified game mechanics. It gives me the impression there will be no body area representation, or bullet "simulation".

No individual body zones. Body parts will simply incur a hard penatly to your chance-to-hit, you will simply select the "penatly" for the chance to hit that "part".

Shouldn't this be a step UP from JA2? Give me a free mouse that can move WHENEVER I want and let me aim at whatever body part I want (why not just highlight the body part?), give us individual arms, legs, torso, head, etc.. right click for aim levels and left click to fire, SIMPLE! Gun UI should feature basic gun features like turning on or off attachments, changing fire mode, etc.. Movement UI should contain anything related to movement, from position, speed and look direction.


Not sure what is so clunky about the world map in JA2.. maybe high resolutions and resolution scaling can cause issues, but not that I've had recently in JA2 anyways. Sometimes selecting the task for your merc requires a click to exit the menu, but I mean, that's something you expect to have smoothed out. Not ADDING extra clicks.





I will often repeat that this looks like a modern xcom/phoenix point clone simply because so many UI and design elements seem to be taken straight out of those games, all the way down to colours of UI to the way movement ranges are highlighted to the way you hard lock onto enemies and select options once you've selected an enemy. Inventory.

I mean, seriously, the inventory here looks like the inventory in Flashback.



Honestly, I look over the video over and over, and I don't see Jagged Alliance.

Where are the RPG stats and bullet "physics"?

Instead, we have icons over the enemy heads indicating their "role", like the grenade icon. So? Class-based system???

When @2:16, Steroid fires his AK... the bullets are LITERALLY a STRAIGHT line that go right through the enemy and like a laser-pointer?????


I'm sorry, but this is really NOT the direction I want for a game that was slapped with the title: JAGGED ALLIANCE


This doesn't in ANY way feel like the 3rd game in the series.. but simply a modern re-imagining with elements taken from popular turn-based games: X-com, Phoenix Point and the other similar ones.

 

[Kordanor]

Most what you say is down to opinion, so I will not repeat mine.

But regarding the stats and physics / realistic bullet calculation we have clear evidence that they are in the game.

Unfortunately we haven't seen a stats window yet, but we know that stats are in because we saw log messages of them being increased.

Will they be as important as in JA2? Probably not, because we also have other things like active abilities now. I think that can be a nice improvement. But ofc it can also be a terrible idea. Impossible to tell yet. But I don't see an issue that the game is moving forward, like JA2 moved forward from JA1 (and there are actually things I prefer from JA1) as long as it's not scrapping core elemenst of JA (as in AP based combat, somewhat realistic physics, high focus on merc personalities...)

Regarding bullet calculation it's very obvious that its in if you check out the first trailer which still shows the hitchance, and then see how this hitchance is in different positions. The position fidel runs into (to use is grenate ability) has a hit chance which can only be explained by a "realistic" calculation.

In the second trailer you can see how bullets go through one target and hit also the target behind (first target is hit by 2, the one behind by 3 bullets).

[GODSPEED]

3 hours ago, Kordanor said:

Regarding bullet calculation it's very obvious that its in if you check out the first trailer which still shows the hitchance, and then see how this hitchance is in different positions. The position fidel runs into (to use is grenate ability) has a hit chance which can only be explained by a "realistic" calculation.

In the second trailer you can see how bullets go through one target and hit also the target behind (first target is hit by 2, the one behind by 3 bullets).

Having hit chance and % values, is not bullet "physic" or a "physical" representation of a bullet.

In JA1 & 2, the bullet is it's own physical object that will miss and hit other things, you will miss shots and hit windows, barrels, etc.. sometimes causing funny and adverse effects. Such as missing your target and hitting the leg of another enemy, or missing and hitting a barrel that destroys part of what you didn't want. You see its drop as well. It has a range and effect where it falls.

In the recent trailer there is NO BULLET SPREAD!

What? Are all guns laser energy rifles???



We never see stray bullets or ACTUAL misses. Everything is telegraphed exactly as in Xcom:

@1:03 - We have bullets that "miss" but go through the body. How??

@1:34 - Many bullets go through body, but only 1 does damage. Why??

@1:56 - We see a pretty drastic shotgun spread (I mean, common! Shotguns DON'T spread like that! Even old JA2 got that right!)

We do see what seems to be a single pellet miss the target and fly straight off. Is this a graphical feature? We don't see individual damage numbers for individual pellets, so I'm guessing it is simply a design feature that every now and then a flying pellet will create that illusion of spread.

But here we go again... another "gun game" that can't even get something as basic as a shotgun RIGHT! More on that later.

@2:03 - Again, no stray bullets AT ALL. Everything is laser telegraphed on everyone. We simply see damage numbers when it "decides" to hit or not. But pretty much every shot connects and is dead on target.

Actually when you look at the part, the first enemy the bot shoots at, far top-right, the bullets go through the ennemy behind the wall, center of the screen. I've watched that part slow-mo 10+ times, bullets seem to clip through the first enemy, but takes no damage.

@2:10 - Enemy fires what seems to be a machine gun (I think I see a bipod) and it is LASER accurate with ZERO spread.

@2:14 - Steroid fires AK, again.. no spread, accurate laser fire. Effect goes through enemy and hits the wall at the exact same spot with an "effect".

These parts of the video makes me feel this will play out exactly like xcom in terms of shooting mechanics. And neither do I hate xcom, it think it was good in its own way. I just don't feel Jagged Alliance needs to be like it, feel like it or act like it.


@1:48 - We have no bullets in the inventory. Simple Guns loaded. We do see an empty RPG-7 Launcher, marked as empty, yet, graphically represented with the explosive head inserted.


Inventory looks like it was made to work on a mobile device. Feels like a downgrade or at most equivalent to the inv in Jagged Alliance 1/2.

I'm hoping they simply haven't created ammo yet, but why I have doubts, is when I look at...

@1:49 - Famas, no indication of magazines, capacity or even TYPE of ammunition.

We have weapon abilities now, because most JA2 lovers ask for no classes or "perks".. so why not give that to guns too now!!?

+ Accuracy (First Aim)
+ Accuracy (same target)  //shouldn't that be dependant of merc stats???
+ Cause no grazing hits (max aim)   //this kind of confirms no bullet physics, as the bullet hitting is what would cause a "graze", not the weapon.
+ Ignore Accuracy Penalties (max aim) //How can a firearm ignore accuracy effects.
+ Lethal Attack Chance //It's a goddamned gun, I hope it can be lethal!!!!    ???


Top left, you can see "perks" like Distracting Shot.... seriously? Nice to know I can fire my gun in the air to "distract" ???


@1:52 - Hi-Power

Perks: Single-Shot, Dual-Shot, Distracting Shot, Mobile Shot.

What??? Dual-Shot!? is that a weapon perk equivalent to taking two shots, a double-tap? Or is the gun modified to fire a 2-round burst?


@1:53 - Double-Barrel

Shotgun-Shot.... ? //I don't even know what to say to that!


Now, let's compare the ranges:

Famas - 24
Hi-Power - 14
Double-Barrel - 6

How is a double-barrel shotgun THAT bad for range when it's pretty easy for anyone without gun knowledge to simply hop on Youtube and see that shotguns don't have that bad range/exaggerated spread as they do in cheap video games.

It isn't like that was misrepresented in Jagged Alliance either.. JA2 actually did Shotguns relatively good justice. Slugs are a viable options and relatively accurate, as they should be!



Look, I don't mean to be a complete jerk here, but part of what attracted many to Jagged Alliance to start with, and one of the big reasons many of us still play 1.13... to some extent is the "realistic" representation of weapons, ammunition, ranges and attachments in a very pure and "un-game-ified" way.

So let's scrap all that, replace gun stats by fake perks, let's give guns these arbitrary ranges and call it a day?



Jagged Alliance 2 actually has scale to permit statistics to make actual sense. Sure, the scale was maybe a little odd for the HD monitors we have nowadays. But having proper mathematical scale in the game isn't the problem, resolution back then was..

I wasn't hoping for a recreation of 1.13, but a slight upgrade to Jagged Alliance 2 in terms of physics and representation.

Instead, I feel we are getting a game that seems to be ready to be ported for mobile use; guns that are simplified to a comical level, now with their own perks on top of it!



@1:09 - Ivan speaks English (why???) and says, - after Buns a Danish woman, takes an AK burst: "You are Russian? Russian women make best snipers."    Is that supposed to be funny? Ivan is supposed to speak Russian ONLY!

@2:10 - Barry GAINS +1 health after being shred to pieces??? Shouldn't his max health DECREASE until properly doctored?



We now have goals for mercs to carry out.
@1:39 - Top-right: Omryn must kill 2 enemies at point-blank range.
@2:14 - Top-right: Steroid must kill 2 enemies at point-blank range.

So, maybe we will have mission screens with side-quests to achieve specials points as well?? Or wait, maybe mercs unlock PERKS if they achieve their goals. Horrible thought!


A few months ago, I had a SERIOUS feeling of hope after learning some of the devs played and love Jagged Alliance 2. But, I'm starting to feel that was just "marketing" and a way to keep us from getting too outspoken because of the quiet.



The map design, graphics and level of detail for the static items and effects are very very good, exactly what I expect from Haemimont Games..

..on the other hand, when I look at the gameplay, the CORE feature I want in Jagged Alliance, I don't see ANY hints of it. I see a skin for something else, something totally unrelated to JA. Another attempt in the same mindset as Flashback, Rage, Back in Action. Giving me names of mercs doesn't make a game. I don't see the devs JA2 experience in what I've seen in the two trailers so far.


Actually, looking here, I think Back in Action doesn't seem to bad after all.
 

[Wigen]

Maybe everything we see in this new trailer is still in the early stages of development and testing. Maybe these game mechanics aren't final yet, and most of these things are about to change.

 

It's time for DevDiary.

Edited August 16, 2022 by Wigen

[Hendrix]

8 hours ago, GODSPEED said:

In the recent trailer there is NO BULLET SPREAD!

(I rewatched the trailer without severe sleep deprevation.)

Yupp, this did bother me! I was hoping to see something more in the line of Silent Storm when it came to "bullet physics". Might be some things are not yet implemented correctly or at all? After all it seams like THQ are not allowing Haemimont to talk to us yet, neither release dev diaries so maybe we are watching a early alpha/proof of concept build?

As you stated @GODSPEED, the interface and ui looks ready to port into a mobile game, and this worries me too.

I don't judge Haemimont for this, because I am sure they are strictly following the guidelines of THQ.

[Acid]

10 hours ago, GODSPEED said:

Having hit chance and % values, is not bullet "physic" or a "physical" representation of a bullet.

In JA1 & 2, the bullet is it's own physical object that will miss and hit other things, you will miss shots and hit windows, barrels, etc.. sometimes causing funny and adverse effects. Such as missing your target and hitting the leg of another enemy, or missing and hitting a barrel that destroys part of what you didn't want. You see its drop as well. It has a range and effect where it falls.

In the recent trailer there is NO BULLET SPREAD!

What? Are all guns laser energy rifles???



We never see stray bullets or ACTUAL misses. Everything is telegraphed exactly as in Xcom:

@1:03 - We have bullets that "miss" but go through the body. How??

@1:34 - Many bullets go through body, but only 1 does damage. Why??

@1:56 - We see a pretty drastic shotgun spread (I mean, common! Shotguns DON'T spread like that! Even old JA2 got that right!)

We do see what seems to be a single pellet miss the target and fly straight off. Is this a graphical feature? We don't see individual damage numbers for individual pellets, so I'm guessing it is simply a design feature that every now and then a flying pellet will create that illusion of spread.

But here we go again... another "gun game" that can't even get something as basic as a shotgun RIGHT! More on that later.

@2:03 - Again, no stray bullets AT ALL. Everything is laser telegraphed on everyone. We simply see damage numbers when it "decides" to hit or not. But pretty much every shot connects and is dead on target.

Actually when you look at the part, the first enemy the bot shoots at, far top-right, the bullets go through the ennemy behind the wall, center of the screen. I've watched that part slow-mo 10+ times, bullets seem to clip through the first enemy, but takes no damage.

@2:10 - Enemy fires what seems to be a machine gun (I think I see a bipod) and it is LASER accurate with ZERO spread.

@2:14 - Steroid fires AK, again.. no spread, accurate laser fire. Effect goes through enemy and hits the wall at the exact same spot with an "effect".

These parts of the video makes me feel this will play out exactly like xcom in terms of shooting mechanics. And neither do I hate xcom, it think it was good in its own way. I just don't feel Jagged Alliance needs to be like it, feel like it or act like it.


@1:48 - We have no bullets in the inventory. Simple Guns loaded. We do see an empty RPG-7 Launcher, marked as empty, yet, graphically represented with the explosive head inserted.


Inventory looks like it was made to work on a mobile device. Feels like a downgrade or at most equivalent to the inv in Jagged Alliance 1/2.

I'm hoping they simply haven't created ammo yet, but why I have doubts, is when I look at...

@1:49 - Famas, no indication of magazines, capacity or even TYPE of ammunition.

We have weapon abilities now, because most JA2 lovers ask for no classes or "perks".. so why not give that to guns too now!!?

+ Accuracy (First Aim)
+ Accuracy (same target)  //shouldn't that be dependant of merc stats???
+ Cause no grazing hits (max aim)   //this kind of confirms no bullet physics, as the bullet hitting is what would cause a "graze", not the weapon.
+ Ignore Accuracy Penalties (max aim) //How can a firearm ignore accuracy effects.
+ Lethal Attack Chance //It's a goddamned gun, I hope it can be lethal!!!!    ???


Top left, you can see "perks" like Distracting Shot.... seriously? Nice to know I can fire my gun in the air to "distract" ???


@1:52 - Hi-Power

Perks: Single-Shot, Dual-Shot, Distracting Shot, Mobile Shot.

What??? Dual-Shot!? is that a weapon perk equivalent to taking two shots, a double-tap? Or is the gun modified to fire a 2-round burst?


@1:53 - Double-Barrel

Shotgun-Shot.... ? //I don't even know what to say to that!


Now, let's compare the ranges:

Famas - 24
Hi-Power - 14
Double-Barrel - 6

How is a double-barrel shotgun THAT bad for range when it's pretty easy for anyone without gun knowledge to simply hop on Youtube and see that shotguns don't have that bad range/exaggerated spread as they do in cheap video games.

It isn't like that was misrepresented in Jagged Alliance either.. JA2 actually did Shotguns relatively good justice. Slugs are a viable options and relatively accurate, as they should be!



Look, I don't mean to be a complete jerk here, but part of what attracted many to Jagged Alliance to start with, and one of the big reasons many of us still play 1.13... to some extent is the "realistic" representation of weapons, ammunition, ranges and attachments in a very pure and "un-game-ified" way.

So let's scrap all that, replace gun stats by fake perks, let's give guns these arbitrary ranges and call it a day?



Jagged Alliance 2 actually has scale to permit statistics to make actual sense. Sure, the scale was maybe a little odd for the HD monitors we have nowadays. But having proper mathematical scale in the game isn't the problem, resolution back then was..

I wasn't hoping for a recreation of 1.13, but a slight upgrade to Jagged Alliance 2 in terms of physics and representation.

Instead, I feel we are getting a game that seems to be ready to be ported for mobile use; guns that are simplified to a comical level, now with their own perks on top of it!



@1:09 - Ivan speaks English (why???) and says, - after Buns a Danish woman, takes an AK burst: "You are Russian? Russian women make best snipers."    Is that supposed to be funny? Ivan is supposed to speak Russian ONLY!

@2:10 - Barry GAINS +1 health after being shred to pieces??? Shouldn't his max health DECREASE until properly doctored?



We now have goals for mercs to carry out.
@1:39 - Top-right: Omryn must kill 2 enemies at point-blank range.
@2:14 - Top-right: Steroid must kill 2 enemies at point-blank range.

So, maybe we will have mission screens with side-quests to achieve specials points as well?? Or wait, maybe mercs unlock PERKS if they achieve their goals. Horrible thought!


A few months ago, I had a SERIOUS feeling of hope after learning some of the devs played and love Jagged Alliance 2. But, I'm starting to feel that was just "marketing" and a way to keep us from getting too outspoken because of the quiet.



The map design, graphics and level of detail for the static items and effects are very very good, exactly what I expect from Haemimont Games..

..on the other hand, when I look at the gameplay, the CORE feature I want in Jagged Alliance, I don't see ANY hints of it. I see a skin for something else, something totally unrelated to JA. Another attempt in the same mindset as Flashback, Rage, Back in Action. Giving me names of mercs doesn't make a game. I don't see the devs JA2 experience in what I've seen in the two trailers so far.


Actually, looking here, I think Back in Action doesn't seem to bad after all.
 

The visuals are nice, maps, destructible buildings, but as a Jagged Alliance game, I'm still not seeing it.

I'm starting to think if this game doesn't work out, the only way we'll get a true JA sequel... is from the community.

I hope that it will improve and they'll make something worthy of the JA name. 

[Kordanor]

Quote

Having hit chance and % values, is not bullet "physic" or a "physical" representation of a bullet.

Ok, maybe I should clarify and distinguish a bit more.

First of all, the system Firaxis XCom ueses is a super simplified hit system. In Firaxis XCom, ONLY the range, type of cover and angle towards the cover matters. Anything in between the target and the shooter does not matter in XCom as long as it's not adjacent to the target. For example, in XCom it does not matter whether a car is blocking the visual towards the target. For the calculation the car does not exist, undless its considered a wall, blocking the sight completely. Also in XCom an a shooting angle difference of 1 Degree makes the different of being "behind full cover" with a 25% hit 10% crit chance and being behind no cover with a 65% hit chance and 60% Crit chance.

One thing which we can definitely see is that Jagged Alliance 3 uses a much more sophisticated and realistic system to calculate the hit chance which considers everything between the shooter and the target.
This does not mean neccessarily that JA3 didnt take any shortcuts. For example it might be possible that Bursts and Shotgun shotguns are only using one main calculation for all the bullets and not for each bullet individually. And indeed there is good evidence that this is indeed simplified. After rewatching the trailer again I am actually quite sure of that. But let's get to that in a bit.

Let's have a look at a couple of fights and dissect them.

At 1:03 we can see the following:

-3 Bullets are fired (also confirmed if you look at the ammo in the rifle)
-The first enemy is hit by 2 bullets. The first one is doing 11 damage, the second one is doing 10 damage, which add up to 21 damage
-The enemy behind that is hit by 3 bullets. First one doing 6 dmg, second one doing 5 dmg (11 total), 3rd one doing 5 dmg (16 total)

So 2 bullets must have gone through the first enemy and then hit the second while 1 bullet missed the first, but then still hit the second.
So far the facts. Let's look how we can interprete that:

Possible explanations for the Damge on the Second target: As all 3 bullets do the same damage on the 2nd target (and not 1 doing higher damage as it didnt go through a body before) I assume that this one is hit in a less vital body part with all 3 bullets. It might however also be possible that the game uses a simpler mechanic for calculating damage on non-primary targets. We have seen that glancing hit are a category of hits in the weapon screen. So it might be possible that all hits are just considered as glancing shots and therefore do less damage. This might then be unrealistic.

Possible explanation of one bullet hitting the first target:
Ofc it might just be a real spread.
However it might also be possible that for bursts the trajectory is only calculated once, shots a are fired, and then the enemy has a chance of "dodging" each bullet individually, which is not visually represented. This would indeed mean that there is no actual spread.

At 1:34 we can see the following:

-3 Shots are fired and visually go through the enemy (if you check frame by frame, you can indeed see that they go through the enemy)
-Only one damage number pops up

Possible explanation:
As mentioned in the example at 1:03 it is very likely that the trajectory was only calculated once. Dodging the bullets is being done individually, resulting in two of the bullets being dodged.

At 1:56 we can see the following:
-The first thing we actually see is the impact of a "main shot" before that shot is even fired visually (watch youtube using , and . to go through it frame by frame, you can see that the pole is destroyed even before anything else happens)
-One single bullet is coming out of the rifle
-Multiple bullets come out of the shotgun, very drastic shotgun spread
-Bleeding is applied to enemy before damage is displayed
-damage is displayed but only one number

My interpretation would be the following:
-The game only calculates the trajectory once (not for every single bullet). The impact is then shown right away before even the bullets got there.
-A "main bullet" is following that trajectory. This might be some kind of unintended glitch
-The spread of the gunshot later on is then just for fluff. The single bullets are not calculated individually
-Unlike bursts where each bullet can possibly be individually dodged, it seems in this case, only one actual shot and calculation is being done, and only one damage number shows up. This might actually be problematic. Does that mean that on shotgun you dodge either everything or nothing? That would make it super unrealistic and kinda contradict the purpose of shotguns where the intention is that some bullets will always hit the target.

At 2:03 we can see the following:

-A burst of 3 Shots are being fired at the enemy at distance
-All 3 shots go past the first enemy behind the wall, not doing any damage
-Target Enemy is being hit by all 3 bullets

My Interpretation:
Even going through it frame by frame, I wouldn't want to draw any conclusions here. It actually seems like all 3 shots go past the first enemy and not through him. there is no frame which shows that a bullet is clearly entering the body or exiting the body. This might however just be coincidence. So either way, I would consider this as inconclusive.

 

Quote

These parts of the video makes me feel this will play out exactly like xcom in terms of shooting mechanics. And neither do I hate xcom, it think it was good in its own way. I just don't feel Jagged Alliance needs to be like it, feel like it or act like it.

This is where you are wrong though. No matter if each bullet in a burst or shotgun is calculated by itself in a realistic way, Jagged Alliance 3 uses a realistic trajectory for the attack itself, where XCom does not.
 

Quote

Inventory looks like it was made to work on a mobile device. Feels like a downgrade or at most equivalent to the inv in Jagged Alliance 1/2.

I actually don't think so, and when I saw it I thought the opposite and was happy that the bags of all characters are displayed on the same screen. In "typical console style" they would have used one screen for each character.

Keep in mind though that there has to be a separate screen for attributes. So it might still be messy.

Quote

@1:09 - Ivan speaks English (why???) and says, - after Buns a Danish woman, takes an AK burst: "You are Russian? Russian women make best snipers."    Is that supposed to be funny? Ivan is supposed to speak Russian ONLY!

 

I hope you are trying to be funny here (and you are not). If you followed the history of Jagged Alliance you know that:
In Jagged Alliance 1: Ivan spoke Russian only
In Jagged Alliance 2: Ivan speaks ok english if he wants to, just falls back into Russian.

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@2:10 - Barry GAINS +1 health after being shred to pieces??? Shouldn't his max health DECREASE until properly doctored?

I'd go with "That which does not kill us makes us stronger".
You are mixing it up with "critical hits" which reduce stats (we haven't see that in the trailers so far though)

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@1:48 - We have no bullets in the inventory. Simple Guns loaded. We do see an empty RPG-7 Launcher, marked as empty, yet, graphically represented with the explosive head inserted

I think this is rather common practice. You will also find pictures of guns in JA2 which got a magazine "attached" to it even if the gun is empty.

This, as many of the other things you mention, like weapon range or skills I would consider as your personal taste and/or bean counting.

Edited August 17, 2022 by Kordanor

[Wigen]

Unfortunately, Jagged Alliance 3 will not be coming to Gamescom 2022 this year.

Maybe next year 🙂

 

 

Edited August 17, 2022 by Wigen

[Kordanor]

On 8/12/2022 at 11:42 PM, Flowable said:

So i wonder if they teased a possible release date. About 26 seconds in the video it shows 09-12 on the VCR. Maybe it's nothing, maybe it's something.

 

There just has been an announcement for the games being presented at the Gamescom. JA3 is NOT one of them.

Which I guess makes it rather unlikely that the game is going to be released this year.

[Wigen]

On 8/12/2022 at 11:42 PM, Flowable said:

So i wonder if they teased a possible release date. About 26 seconds in the video it shows 09-12 on the VCR. Maybe it's nothing, maybe it's something.

They didn't give a release date during THQ event so assume 2023 or even Q1 2024.

 

Edited August 17, 2022 by Wigen

[GODSPEED]

5 hours ago, Kordanor said:

Ok, maybe I should clarify and distinguish a bit more.

First of all, the system Firaxis XCom ueses is a super simplified hit system. In Firaxis XCom, ONLY the range, type of cover and angle towards the cover matters. Anything in between the target and the shooter does not matter in XCom as long as it's not adjacent to the target. For example, in XCom it does not matter whether a car is blocking the visual towards the target. For the calculation the car does not exist, undless its considered a wall, blocking the sight completely. Also in XCom an a shooting angle difference of 1 Degree makes the different of being "behind full cover" with a 25% hit 10% crit chance and being behind no cover with a 65% hit chance and 60% Crit chance.

One thing which we can definitely see is that Jagged Alliance 3 uses a much more sophisticated and realistic system to calculate the hit chance which considers everything between the shooter and the target.
This does not mean neccessarily that JA3 didnt take any shortcuts. For example it might be possible that Bursts and Shotgun shotguns are only using one main calculation for all the bullets and not for each bullet individually. And indeed there is good evidence that this is indeed simplified. After rewatching the trailer again I am actually quite sure of that. But let's get to that in a bit.

Let's have a look at a couple of fights and dissect them.

At 1:03 we can see the following:

-3 Bullets are fired (also confirmed if you look at the ammo in the rifle)
-The first enemy is hit by 2 bullets. The first one is doing 11 damage, the second one is doing 10 damage, which add up to 21 damage
-The enemy behind that is hit by 3 bullets. First one doing 6 dmg, second one doing 5 dmg (11 total), 3rd one doing 5 dmg (16 total)

So 2 bullets must have gone through the first enemy and then hit the second while 1 bullet missed the first, but then still hit the second.
So far the facts. Let's look how we can interprete that:

Possible explanations for the Damge on the Second target: As all 3 bullets do the same damage on the 2nd target (and not 1 doing higher damage as it didnt go through a body before) I assume that this one is hit in a less vital body part with all 3 bullets. It might however also be possible that the game uses a simpler mechanic for calculating damage on non-primary targets. We have seen that glancing hit are a category of hits in the weapon screen. So it might be possible that all hits are just considered as glancing shots and therefore do less damage. This might then be unrealistic.

Possible explanation of one bullet hitting the first target:
Ofc it might just be a real spread.
However it might also be possible that for bursts the trajectory is only calculated once, shots a are fired, and then the enemy has a chance of "dodging" each bullet individually, which is not visually represented. This would indeed mean that there is no actual spread.

At 1:34 we can see the following:

-3 Shots are fired and visually go through the enemy (if you check frame by frame, you can indeed see that they go through the enemy)
-Only one damage number pops up

Possible explanation:
As mentioned in the example at 1:03 it is very likely that the trajectory was only calculated once. Dodging the bullets is being done individually, resulting in two of the bullets being dodged.

At 1:56 we can see the following:
-The first thing we actually see is the impact of a "main shot" before that shot is even fired visually (watch youtube using , and . to go through it frame by frame, you can see that the pole is destroyed even before anything else happens)
-One single bullet is coming out of the rifle
-Multiple bullets come out of the shotgun, very drastic shotgun spread
-Bleeding is applied to enemy before damage is displayed
-damage is displayed but only one number

My interpretation would be the following:
-The game only calculates the trajectory once (not for every single bullet). The impact is then shown right away before even the bullets got there.
-A "main bullet" is following that trajectory. This might be some kind of unintended glitch
-The spread of the gunshot later on is then just for fluff. The single bullets are not calculated individually
-Unlike bursts where each bullet can possibly be individually dodged, it seems in this case, only one actual shot and calculation is being done, and only one damage number shows up. This might actually be problematic. Does that mean that on shotgun you dodge either everything or nothing? That would make it super unrealistic and kinda contradict the purpose of shotguns where the intention is that some bullets will always hit the target.

At 2:03 we can see the following:

-A burst of 3 Shots are being fired at the enemy at distance
-All 3 shots go past the first enemy behind the wall, not doing any damage
-Target Enemy is being hit by all 3 bullets

My Interpretation:
Even going through it frame by frame, I wouldn't want to draw any conclusions here. It actually seems like all 3 shots go past the first enemy and not through him. there is no frame which shows that a bullet is clearly entering the body or exiting the body. This might however just be coincidence. So either way, I would consider this as inconclusive.

 

This is where you are wrong though. No matter if each bullet in a burst or shotgun is calculated by itself in a realistic way, Jagged Alliance 3 uses a realistic trajectory for the attack itself, where XCom does not.
 

I actually don't think so, and when I saw it I thought the opposite and was happy that the bags of all characters are displayed on the same screen. In "typical console style" they would have used one screen for each character.

Keep in mind though that there has to be a separate screen for attributes. So it might still be messy.

 

I hope you are trying to be funny here (and you are not). If you followed the history of Jagged Alliance you know that:
In Jagged Alliance 1: Ivan spoke Russian only
In Jagged Alliance 2: Ivan speaks ok english if he wants to, just falls back into Russian.

I'd go with "That which does not kill us makes us stronger".
You are mixing it up with "critical hits" which reduce stats (we haven't see that in the trailers so far though)

I think this is rather common practice. You will also find pictures of guns in JA2 which got a magazine "attached" to it even if the gun is empty.

This, as many of the other things you mention, like weapon range or skills I would consider as your personal taste and/or bean counting.

Thing is, most of these things you are defending in the trailer don't reflect an "upgrade" to Jagged Alliance 2, but an upgrade to Xcom. Why do we have a downgrade to a simple straight-line trajectory when JA2 had actualy bullet "physics", range and actually even fell to the ground?


Shouldn't Jagged Alliance 3 make features found in JA2 BETTER? Not fall back to another style of game and try to tweak those features!

It is not difficult to dissect a Youtube video, and I am sorry, but I cannot see any similarities with Jagged Alliance 2. I see, however MANY similarities with Xcom and the games that came after it.

As for Ivan, no, I was not trying to be funny at all. During the entire video, I was trying to look for SOMETHING to remind me of Jagged Alliance 2. The only things I could find are the fact some mercs have the same names, and that the games has guns.

I could not detect any of the humour, commentary or what makes Jagged Alliance standout.

Ivan sometimes speaking very bad English in Jagged Alliance 2 is helped by the fact there is a voice over, and the text is also reflecting that. Here, we have text as if Ivan was a fluent English speaker. For having been friends with Russian-speaking people, even after decades of speaking English, it is quite easy to tell the Russian background, and that should be something VERY clear even in text.

Maybe I was hoping for even but a simple easter egg. Having Ivan mumble words in English and Russian, might have given me a tiny bit of hope that this game feels like it is taking cues from its roots.

So absolutely NOT trying to be funny at all. Pointing out that this video has nothing that shows it's love, attention or care for the name that was slapped on the cover. For people who have played Jagged Alliance, I would expect a higher level of fidelity to the source material.

Here, I see no difference between the trailers and previews we had when the previous attempts were made. If anything, this video has made me even more skeptical that this game is not even getting that much attention.


Again, I sincerely hope you are 100% right @Kordanor! I am VERY skeptical however, because apart from more "graphics", I haven't noticed anything that gives me more hope than during the first trailer almost a complete year ago.

[Kordanor]

I would actually say that there are plenty of small things which are kind of funny in that trailer (But I agree, the comment about russian women isn't, thats a bit bland).

But just check the autocompletion of when she is searching in the search engine.
Or read the small print on the AIM page.
Or the FA-MAS description.

To me that's pretty much the humor we also had in previous JA games. Always little details.

 

But we do need to accept that this isn't a JA2.5 but a JA3, which changes some things and drops some other.

I might have mentioned it before, but when JA2 came it I was actually somewhat disappointed.
-I prefered to fight over each sector
-I was missing the daily summary
-I prefered the old Guard/Harvester setup and management
-I was missing sectors where you get an extra reward for being stealthy (in JA they could recognize you and then push a buttom which made some crates with weapons go boom)
-I am not a fan of being able to save in combat (they added a "ironman mode" in the gold version to fix that)
-Item management in base was also more comfortable
-I strongly disliked the "rocket rifle" near the end of the game, which you can't even get rid of by disabling the sci-fi mode, which I never used

And then small details
-I also liked the mini animations when lockpicking or opening a door
-Weapon mods didnt change the picture of the weapon anymore (in the old game you could combine a weapon with steel and got a completely new weapon)
-I liked the narrator reading each item name. Pointless but kinda cool
-I liked this item which you could use to listen into NPC talk (not the one to hear which direction they were coming from, but you got actual dialogue snippets, no idea if they ever had any use)

 

What I wanted to have was rather a JA 1.5, but I got a JA 2, which at the beginning was a disappointment to some degree. But I leant to like some of the new features, and changed my mind on some changes. While I still think that there are several aspects where JA 1 was nicer.

I am just saying, that this isn't just a remaster (which maybe would have been a better idea, you could also just have reused all the voices) but a new version which is going to have some changes. We can just hope that it keeps the DNA of what made JA great. JA in general, not JA2 or 1.13

[LoboNocturno]

19 hours ago, Wigen said:

Maybe everything we see in this new trailer is still in the early stages of development and testing. Maybe these game mechanics aren't final yet, and most of these things are about to change.

 

It's time for DevDiary.

Exactly, thank you. Godspeed opinion is way too pessimistic imo. I would not mind if they make the game similar to XCom 2 either, liked Rage but Rage was made too cheaply as a indie game. With good effort Jagged Alliance 3 can be a really good game, especially if the voice talking will be added up, some NPCs and the game is a must for console, especially PlayStation cause am not playing it on PC with mouse like 20 years ago lol, real gaming is now days on console.

[Kordanor]

There is no such thing as "real gaming" 😛
But for now the Game is PC only though, and I hope that they also design the interface for a good use on PC first, and don't make it "streamlined" for console already, with everything split into an interface like a BIOS with thousands of differnt sub-sections with lists to scroll through.
You could argue that all the simplifications in Firaxis Xcom are thanks to consoles. And I actually strongly dislike that game. And I also think that Rage is overall, like JA FB and JAO not just a bad JA game, but also a bad game in general. But I digress...

I do agree that a console port makes sense though. But they should adapt the interface afterwards for that version. Generally more platforms means more money for the developers, potentially meaning more potential budget worth to be put into the development.

So it could be seen as console releases financing our voice overs these days. 😉

 

[LoboNocturno]

Mid to late 2024 for PlayStation then. Uffff i need to wait a lot but just hoping it will be something proper, i dont mind if it will be like Rage but just with more blood & gore which we can see on the 2.trailer already and a better story with good voice acting, the atmosphere & graphics also doesn't look bad to me. I like the scenes where the mercs are running, escaping it looks really intense.

[LoboNocturno]

4 hours ago, Wigen said:

They didn't give a release date during THQ event so assume 2023 or even Q1 2024.

 

 

36 minutes ago, Kordanor said:

There is no such thing as "real gaming" 😛
But for now the Game is PC only though, and I hope that they also design the interface for a good use on PC first, and don't make it "streamlined" for console already, with everything split into an interface like a BIOS with thousands of differnt sub-sections with lists to scroll through.
You could argue that all the simplifications in Firaxis Xcom are thanks to consoles. And I actually strongly dislike that game. And I also think that Rage is overall, like JA FB and JAO not just a bad JA game, but also a bad game in general. But I digress...

I do agree that a console port makes sense though. But they should adapt the interface afterwards for that version. Generally more platforms means more money for the developers, potentially meaning more potential budget worth to be put into the development.

So it could be seen as console releases financing our voice overs these days. 😉

 

I mean real gaming is for me with a console and controller not with mouse and keyboard or on smartphone with touch screen you know.

Back in the days strategy games were mostly played on huge desktops with mouse and keyboard which was also fun, remembering those days when i freshly played the JA2 demo way in late 90s as a teenager which made me kinda addicted, playing for hours.

 

But today its just a different time, XCom as example (i know there is lots of haters here lol) was very well made for console as you mentioned. Played JA Rage & XCom 2 so many times it gives the perfect feeling. Also to play the game on much bigger screen (TV) from few meters away is much better than playing a game from a very near distance on a laptop (guess most Jagged Alliance & strategy hardcore fans on here still preferring laptop over console). Just to pop trophies and play a game to %100 gives us (console players) lots of joy to achieve that. Trying to play XCom 2 %100 platinum but hey its pain in the @$$, 1 of the hardest achievementsts ever, i mean who done that is a gamer legend for sure. Especially the final mission on legendary difficulty in XCom 2 is really hard, then try to do it on iron mode and with "who needs Tygan?" (with simple gear) thats more than super hard for sure.

 

Hope they will not make Jagged Alliance 3 easy as Jagged Alliance Rage, the difficulty should be just right like in JA2.

 

THQ will make very possibly a console version of JA3 but maybe they want to see first how many people will buy it for PC, how much attention it will caught? Imo its a mistake somehow as most players are on console today and just as a PC game it will not have so many followers imo, i was even surprised last week on the THQ showcase, most of the people on the chat screen was writing Alone in the Dark (yes also a console game i played years ago in PS1) and 1 more game cant remember the name right now sorry, i think i was the 1 and only person in the chat screen writing there Jagged Alliance 3 🔥🔥🔥 like a excited child who is waiting for his Xmas gift 😆

[Flowable]

7 hours ago, Kordanor said:

There just has been an announcement for the games being presented at the Gamescom. JA3 is NOT one of them.

Which I guess makes it rather unlikely that the game is going to be released this year.

Just for a few days i thought i spotted something 🤪

[Flowable]

@GODSPEED why, in your opinion, is it so hard for a developer to capture the soul and heart of Jagged Alliance and what is needed to make it succeed. 

 

I hope that when the final product releases it will be open for modding. I think it is very special for the Jagged Alliance series to have (till this date) such an active community. 

[GODSPEED]

19 minutes ago, Flowable said:

@GODSPEED why, in your opinion, is it so hard for a developer to capture the soul and heart of Jagged Alliance and what is needed to make it succeed. 

 

I hope that when the final product releases it will be open for modding. I think it is very special for the Jagged Alliance series to have (till this date) such an active community. 

I agree with pretty much everyone here in many ways. @Kordanor as well, even if I argue his points.

I just tend to want to push for features I want. I was too quiet in the previous JA attempts and regret not having said what I wanted in those games. I might just be 1 voice, but if many voices get together to share their wants, it would grab the devs attention... or at least I think.


To answer your question... I can't. I'm not some game dev, I don't know the secret recipe to make a successful game.


What is needed to "recreate" what made Jagged Alliance 2 such a cult classic?


Depth, absolute freedom, discovering everything yourself, a very particular sense of humour.
 

• Tons of Guns

Why is that so hard to get right?

Again, only my opinions, and this is something I've spoken about in other past topics, but CULTURE has a very strong effect on the style of humour found in games.

And just to make it super clear, I don't care at all WHERE the game was made! I play games from pretty much anywhere and really enjoy learning about cultures, so what I say next is absolutely OBJECTIVE!

We're going from a game that was originally produced in my hometown city, Montreal, which at the time, was considered one of Canada's most multicultural cities. JA2 portrays so well the type and sense of humour many people here will display.. as well as the way the Quebec culture has stereotypes for other cultures living here, all the way from "mocking" the way others speak, to habits and looks. The sense of humour tends to vary mostly somewhere between a mix of French and much British humour, where the scenario is serious, but it doesn't take itself so seriously. A little bit of a sarcastic and sardonic approach.

It is VERY different from American humour, or Russian humour... or many other types of humour.

I just look at the previous attempts to humour, especially with something like Flashback, where it feels they really tried way too hard to push a kind of funny style of humour, but it didn't come off as funny at all. Maybe culture has a hand to play in that?


Those are, naturally, just opinions. I simply base those on what I've experienced and see.


And what do you think @Flowable ?

[GODSPEED]

5 hours ago, Kordanor said:

I am just saying, that this isn't just a remaster (which maybe would have been a better idea, you could also just have reused all the voices) but a new version which is going to have some changes. We can just hope that it keeps the DNA of what made JA great. JA in general, not JA2 or 1.13

I totally understand what you mean by that.

While, I always preferred the 2nd game... I do wish we had some options to enable some of the voice lines for items! That was always kind of special.

But you are exactly saying and feeling the same things I want: KEEP THE ROOTS OF THE GAMES INTACT!

I realize the game will never be EXACTLY what I hope, but I simply hope there will be enough content and depth to make it feel better than anything since Flashback or Back in Action.

[Flowable]

@GODSPEED The only humor so far, that i've seen, that was on point is at 0.41 in the trailer. The red text on the A.I.M. website reads the following: