trueman11

@Haemimont_Boian @Haemimont_Boyan I know I ranted enough in this thread already, so I just want to share this quote with the devs, that is one of my favorites, without any further comments from me: "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca

It doesn't need to be dumbed down to be interesting. I'm sure most players of JA2 in it's time did not use all of the depth it allowed, but that depth was there. Take Stellaris today for example: it is incredibly deep in it's current form, but it does not require every player to know all of it's depth. You are correct that the players are different today. But I think that in creating something for hardcore JA fans devs would create something for many other players too. Everything can be modernized without losing identity, depth and tone. And I think devs in their style choice have shown that they are creating a game for other type of gamers than me.

I don't think there's any hope the game will resemble anything like Jagged Alliance, if it's to be released so soon. What shown in trailers is going to be what released game will look and feel like. I don't think the direction of the game will be changed if it's to be released this year. I also think that game will sell well, bring in a lot of money, as another XCOM clone supposed to do, because XCOM created a lot of players that buy it's clones. What will happen with JA4 looks only bleaker from there. And I don't think any subsequent games will abandon XCOM-clone-money-raking-in formula to be more like JA and JA2, no matter what creators of the current JA3 say in trailers. I really don't see how they can call what they show in trailers a "spiritual successor", it sounds like a cruel joke. Meaning delaying the release doesn't matter, when the chosen direction departs from the game series roots.

Not. Good. News.

Does the UI and style of the game shown in trailers feel like Jagged Alliance to you? Asking because it surprises me that many like it, despite it looking just like another XCOM clone to me.

@Hendrix Another thought about graphical realism in games, is that they all become alike. I thought about this after responding to comments here. Graphically realistic games tend to blend in together, they don't stand out, they're all alike in a sense. The same could be said about UI in games - it all is starting to blend in together, like all those modern XCOM clones - Phoenix Point, Mutant Year Zero, Gears Tactics, Phantom Doctrine, etc, etc... An example of a huge downgrade in UI style and loss of character and tone is Crusader Kings games - CK and CK2 each have their own unique unforgettable style, which CK3 has lost in my view, CK3's UI style is bland, boring and the game is losing it's character because of that. So it is not that graphical fidelity is bad, it's that it tends to overshadow more important style and uniqueness, that give the game it's character. For example, many YouTube comments on the JA3 trailers are precisely about the game resembling something else, but NOT Jagged Alliance - the graphics, the UI, the dialogue, voicing, overall tone of the game - they all seem to get criticism because they are losing unique Jagged Alliance identity. (Music is very important too btw.) After all, games are about unique world building, not about imitating the real world or worlds of other games. And Jagged Alliance 3 should feel connected to overall Jagged Alliance series, at least in it's core gameplay elements and tone-character-style. And what I see in trailers reminds me more of numerous XCOM clones, than Jagged Alliance. In fact Jagged Alliance 3 in trailers doesn't resemble Jagged Alliance at all. P.S.: Here are some of the most immersive games I have played in my life: X-Com UFO Defense (UFO Enemy Unknown), Fallout, Gangsters 1&2, Nox, GTA 2, Hitman (Codename 47, Silent Assassin, Contracts, Blood Money), Majesty, Max Payne, Half Life, C&C Tiberian Sun, Operation Flashpoint, Uplink, Xenonauts, Neon Chrome, Medieval 2 Total War, Warcraft 3. And of course Jagged Alliance 2 (Wildfire and 1.13).

Graphics don't have to be bad or even lowdef, they just have to be unique, have their own feel. Right now I get the modernXCOMclone feeling from trailers. It's a challenge to create something that stands out in the ocean of modern games. And I think they should try to make it look more like JA2, it will preserve the continuity-tone in the graphics, and will help JA3 to stand out among modern games. Of course there are many elements to a game's tone, like voicing and dialogue, sounds, etc. - have to get those right too. It's a challenge, but it is the challenge devs took upon themselves.

They have to get the core elements and the tone right though. Right now the tone feels off to me.

That is the demonstration of the power of JA2, anyone who really have played it can tell numerous stories like this one, it's quintessential JA2 moment. No two combat situations feel alike, and it never gets boring or repetitive, at least for me it never got. The process of playing that game feels like a real story. For me it creates endless replayability. And I actually finished the game once or twice only, because the process was so fun I never ever really felt like rushing towards the win, ending the game. JA2 really does hook me, it's the reason I avoid playing it when I don't have LOTS of time.) And 1.13 adds so much stuff and variation to the game...I still plan to try using the disguise mechanic to infiltrate Meduna and kill only the queen, without any territory takeover (except the first sector, obviously).

It's interesting that you ask this. I do prefer new games with simpler graphics, or at least with not ones leaning towards photorealism. Like Sable that I mentioned, it's actually a pretty new game, but it maybe not modern in the graphical sense, it has it's own style and feel I haven't seen anywhere before. Another one with similar feeling of immersion that I've seen is Death Trash, and it too has old style graphics. I don't really know what it depends on, but the feeling seems to come from the game's world, not from graphics. I would venture a guess that the closer graphics come to reality, the more I subconsciously tend to "compare" the game's world to the real world around me. Good point about moddability. If that kind of moddability will be possible in JA3, I think all that devs have to do right is the core and the feel. From the comments to JA3 trailers on YouTube there's a lot of skepticism about the style and the tone, that it deviates from JA2's seriousness too much. I myself find the style a copy of oh-so-many modern XCOM clones I've seen, and that by itself fills me with skepticism. I don't find the style looks anything like JA, it's more modern XCOM-Phoenix Point-Mutant Year Zero. Not getting Jagged Alliance vibes at all.

The best that doesn't come nowhere near JA2 in depth, breadth, and feel - would not be enough for me. We'll see how it turns out, but I predict from what I've seen it's not going to come close to what JA2 is, and definitely not to 1.13. Hey, will be happy to be wrong.

That's interesting. A fraction would definitely not be enough for me to get excited.

If devs want to create real spiritual successor to JA - they should just crowdfund. Xenonauts and ATOM RPG pulled it off, so why not an alternative Jagged Alliance title? I think that would have been preferable. And I think that likely to happen still, a game with another title will be the next Jagged Alliance.

I don't see how it can change from that to something in the spirit of JA2. Starting point tells A LOT about the direction devs are going. What trailers are showing right now clearly indicates the direction is modern XCOM-ish simplified shallower game. Don't get me wrong, I would be GLAD to be wrong. I just likely won't be.

At one point I was wondering why do old games like Jagged Alliance 2 and Fallout feel so much more immersive to me than modern realistic 3D games... And observing my experience, I have come to a conclusion that my mind just can not believe in what it sees, no matter how realistic the graphics are. Moreover, my mind resits more with the amount of graphical details provided, it even tires the mind to look at all those fancy spick and span modern graphics. But with JA2...it's like I get immersed into a story, like reading a book, it's like my mind fills in the blanks, and can feel the ground under my feet from the simplest sound of steps on a dirt road, or feel the grass touching my legs like if it's me walking through it, or it's me opening that door touching that handle, or gripping that weapon, or lying prone on the cold ground, hot sand, cool grass... I don't see small faceless figurines, I see full fledged people as if I am standing next to them; I am not reading that dialog, I am hearing it spoken into my ear by that person; those are not notifications I am reading, I hear those steps close to me; those bullets are flying next to me, those buildings are as real as if I can touch them right now... Small background sounds and subtle idle animations and all those details bring that isometric world to life, and I lose myself in it for 12 hours, 24 hours, for more... I don't know what kind of process works there, but it's filled with that sense of wonder for me like when I was reading adventure books early in my life... And I don't know how it is for others, but this feel will always come to me when I enter the world of Jagged Alliance 2. And I think it's because immersion is not created by graphical detail, at least not for me, I need that space, those gaps for my mind to expand itself into them and immerse itself, lose itself in another world... Share your impressions, perception, experiences of JA2, if you feel like doing so.) Cheers.) P.S. Btw, I was just remembering a modern game that kind of reminds me of that feeling - it's called Sable. I didn't get a chance to play it yet, but check it out, if you're curious.)

Faithful to JA2 would mean true to the tone-feel-atmosphere, depth, breadth, complexity, immersiveness, captivation, etc. of JA2. Note: I understand that it's only first three trailers, but nevertheless, I am asking how it feels and seems to you. Sincerely intersted in the results of the poll.

I guess this just answers what type of gamers developers are aiming at. Oh, well... At least I know from the start that this JA3 is not for me. That's something.

Violence is not enough to make the game serious. Trailers look like a parody on JA2. Modern game studios don't have the guts to embrace the kind of darkness 90's games explored. I think everything that makes JA2 so special is just impossible today, the times have changed too much. And the aim, it seems, to sell a pretty-looking funny game to the smartphone-minded modern gamers.

Don't be discouraged. Make what you want to make. Just don't call it Jagged Alliance, if it's not going to resemble Jagged Alliance at all. How I see it.

Then we don't appreciate JA2 in the same way.

It's a choice between reliably making money and risking a lot to make art. I can't exactly deny anyone the responsibility for the choice they make.

I would prefer an independent developer who asked the JA community what the community wants, listened, and then said what he needs to accomplish that. And if the developer promised to deliver what the community wants (and it would overwhelmingly be "everything in JA2" + things in 1.13) - the community would support that developer financially to a ridiculous degree. I am thinking about this, but even in that case, it still would be more profitable to make a mediocre game with a known title, and with good marketing sell it like crazy. I wish I could come up with a way that would be as profitable as a low effort path. But it seems it goes against the very laws of human nature: 1) to make something more complex and intricate more resources have to be invested; 2) less people will buy a complex and intricate game (proven multiple times). So it turns into a double strike - invest more and get paid less. So it seems the only way to make something special - is to give up profit. And, well...that rarely happens.

Loving a game is not necessary to sell it. It's more profitable to make a game that millions will play once, that thousands will play their whole life. Playtime does not make profit, only sales. For that love for a game to translate into profit there needs to be a new model of rewarding the developers. That would actually encourage developers to make pieces of art, instead of one-time entertainment.

I have only two questions: how old are you, and how many hours have you played JA2 and it's mods?

This is painful to watch....