Suppressive fire

[CatsPaw]

In the combat distance topic, additional mechanics were discussed, as a result of which I thought about the need for one of the mechanics. In particular, this is the suppression of the character by shooting from automatic weapons. At the moment, I am convinced that this mechanic must, simply must be in the game from release.

But in my opinion, this mechanic should not affect the character's action points, but relate to the accuracy of shooting. And not as a percentage of accuracy, but at a fixed rate, ideally depending on the character's combat experience.
In my opinion, this is a must in a tactical game. What will it give us:
1. The tactical component immediately appears in the form of in-depth planning of the position. Determination of the position for specific characters, taking into account their specialization, shooting skills and combat experience.
2. There will be a need for a tactical regrouping if your soldiers are overwhelmed by the shooting, which is not so difficult to do because the action points are not affected.
3. Often there is a position on the map that the character occupies, which does not give the other side the opportunity to maneuver, with this mechanic, you can concentrate shooting at this point, which will make it possible for one of the team members to cross the dangerous area, which will increase the tactical component.
4. Will justify such a class as "machine gunners", they will really become needed and will represent strength.
5. The duration of the battle will slightly increase, because the characters under fire will be less accurate.
Attached below is one of the awesome screenshots from the game. Try to imagine how this mechanic will specifically affect the tactics of the game. Where would you place your fighters, for what point of control would you fight, where would you retreat in case of superior enemy forces.
Please write what you think about this.

[GODSPEED]

26 minutes ago, CatsPaw said:

But in my opinion, this mechanic should not affect the character's action points, but relate to the accuracy of shooting.

I would like if Suppression did affect AP.

With this in mind, I think there should be an effect of suppressing an area (or zone).. it should not be something that is possible to overuse.. suppression should cost a very large amount of AP and expend a VERY large amount of bullets. But the high AP/Ammunition count should also mean you make enemies affected by the suppression to lose a good amount of APs.. enough so they cannot provide AIMED fire (unaimed fire would be the equivalent of blind fire) on their turn.. or the loss of ability to run, stand, walk... so they are forced to move slowly from a prone or crouched position.
 

26 minutes ago, CatsPaw said:

1. The tactical component immediately appears in the form of in-depth planning of the position. Determination of the position for specific characters, taking into account their specialization, shooting skills and combat experience.
2. There will be a need for a tactical regrouping if your soldiers are overwhelmed by the shooting, which is not so difficult to do because the action points are not affected.
3. Often there is a position on the map that the character occupies, which does not give the other side the opportunity to maneuver, with this mechanic, you can concentrate shooting at this point, which will make it possible for one of the team members to cross the dangerous area, which will increase the tactical component.
4. Will justify such a class as "machine gunners", they will really become needed and will represent strength.
5. The duration of the battle will slightly increase, because the characters under fire will be less accurate.
Attached below is one of the awesome screenshots from the game. Try to imagine how this mechanic will specifically affect the tactics of the game. Where would you place your fighters, for what point of control would you fight, where would you retreat in case of superior enemy forces.

I will have to think more about the ideas from the screenshot... but I like to see how the enemy would be setup and what the challenge would be for myself.

Here with this screenshot, I can imagine you would have to move your team through this village from the North-West. The orange building would be the main fortified position were the enemy soldiers would be setup and drinking beers.

I would imagine a 2 man squad carrying a PKM and a G3 near the top corner of the I<3U graffiti. They would be keeping watch over a vast portion of the road.

This would be in the early stages of the game where you would not have the ability to simply go prone and take a well placed headshot from far away.. most enemies would only be carrying old PPSH and Tokarev Pistols, while you would have simpler rifles like Mosin and Remington M870.


The way I would like to see this play out is, I would hope the game has some form of AI that let's you create distractions and diversion.. so I would send a 2-man team by the back near the mountain, behind the walls...

...the rest of my team would walk around (in and out) of the building we don't see at the west to create a diversion and attract enemy fire and keep the LMG focused on hard to hit targets.

For gameplay reasons, I would like to see something like a LMG be able to suppress from the corner of that building all the way to where the electrical lines/telephone poles pass by (with the piled up tires) near the north-west.





This simple idea of a LMG or Machinegun Nest creates a natural strategy and creates a natural focus for you to think about.

One of the big flaws I have experienced when playing Jagged Alliance Flashback was the lack of any kind of specialized enemies... it just felt like a huge amount of enemies accross the map with no clear strategy or no realistic setup. It made playing the sectors pretty boring.

[CatsPaw]

12 minutes ago, GODSPEED said:

I would like if Suppression did affect AP.

I thought about it, in the beginning I also thought that this should affect the action points. But I came to the conclusion that this is not always the case. Let's say a character is in an open area and came under intense fire from the enemy. He sees that there is a life-saving shelter 15 meters away from him. I think he will run there faster than he would have run without being under fire. But he will not be able to calmly aim. Moreover, the loss of action points in many cases will mean the loss of a character by the player, which will be toxic for him.

[GODSPEED]

8 hours ago, CatsPaw said:

I thought about it, in the beginning I also thought that this should affect the action points. But I came to the conclusion that this is not always the case. Let's say a character is in an open area and came under intense fire from the enemy. He sees that there is a life-saving shelter 15 meters away from him. I think he will run there faster than he would have run without being under fire. But he will not be able to calmly aim. Moreover, the loss of action points in many cases will mean the loss of a character by the player, which will be toxic for him.

Maybe it could be similar to stamina, but there could be Adrenaline.

The higher the level of adrenaline, the higher the reflexes. Actions cost less AP, but aiming levels are greatly reduced.

??

 

Not certain they would even put such a thing though.

 

7,62 High Calibre has a similar system of Stamina, Adrenaline (when under stress, you are quicker, but suffer aiming penalties), Shock, Unconscious states, bleeding, injuries, etc...

...but, that game is also too hardcore for the vast majority of players.

 

 

I do not want suppression to be a similar activating skill like in new xcoms, but if they do it, it will be similar in my opinion.

[CatsPaw]

GODSPEED, As a small example. Let's say the mechanic assumes a penalty to the fighter's accuracy of 30 units. Minus 2 units from the penalty for each level of combat experience. We have two fighters. One of them is a beginner with "50" shooting skills and "1" combat experience. Another of them is the most experienced fighter with "90" shooting skills and "10" combat experience. Accordingly, after suppression by fire, a beginner will have a skill of shooting accuracy 22 (50-30+2). This will not restrict his freedom of movement, but will render him relatively useless as a shooter. Which, in principle, is what happens in reality.
In the second case, experience will allow you to resist panic. And an experienced fighter will have a shooting accuracy skill of 80 (90-30+20). That will practically not affect its accuracy. But of course fighters with combat experience "10" should be "rare specimens"

[CatsPaw]

It is clear that the penalty should be dependent on the number of bullets flying over the character and the type of small arms from which they were fired. But this is already a balancing act.

[GODSPEED]

On 11/8/2021 at 10:49 PM, CatsPaw said:

It is clear that the penalty should be dependent on the number of bullets flying over the character and the type of small arms from which they were fired. But this is already a balancing act.

It is an interesting idea.

 

Personally, I would have made it independant of caliber though. A PPSH should have as much suppresive effect as a FN Minimi in terms of when you hear bullets whiz by your head, you don't think what kind of bullet, you simply react and put your head down.

 

Now, I do believe a higher rate of fire should help create, as you mentionned, more suppression. An MG42 or PPSH would have an incredible effect as you really duck compared to something slower like a Thompson.

Amount of bullets is a good consideration.

 

 

I like this topic, but somhow, I believe suppression will be like on the modern xcom/phoenix point. It will be an ability that you activate that will keep an enemy from shooting bac or moving, or reaction fire, etc.

I think, what do you think?

[CatsPaw]

4 hours ago, GODSPEED said:

Personally, I would have made it independant of caliber though.

Oh sure. The same caliber can be both pistol and rifle. But the effect will be different. There are many nuances. If you load the magazine in a ratio of 1 to 3. Where 1 is a regular cartridge, and 3 is a tracer, then the suppression effect will increase significantly. Despite the lower stopping power due to weight loss in flight, they have a "psychological effect." People under fire have the impression that there are much more attackers than there really are (well, developers, will it be possible to charge the magazine in a ratio of 1 to 3? No bans, I'm kidding 😀. Just give the opportunity and the fans will add it themselves😁).

 

4 hours ago, GODSPEED said:

I like this topic, but somhow, I believe suppression will be like on the modern xcom/phoenix point. It will be an ability that you activate that will keep an enemy from shooting bac or moving, or reaction fire, etc.

How do I feel about activating abilities? Depends on the implementation method. Will she have a cooldown etc. In most cases, this is a simplification and limitation. If so, then I am against it.
I'll try to explain. Entering the sector, we see a tactical opportunity to take a position that will give us an advantage. She is at a distance from us. We understand that opponents are dispersed across the map and we have the opportunity to create a numerical superiority on the way to the cherished goal. But at this point, there are several opponents. They are in hiding. We can make a decision with the help of suppressive fire to get close to the point we need. Thus, on the way to the point, we will conduct suppressive fire constantly. Move by move. Either everyone fires, and then they move to the point, or three fighters conduct suppressive fire, the other three move to the point. With the subsequent change of roles. But in this case, I will have to think about the advisability of such an intense fire, will I still have ammunition after that (will the weapon overheat, just kidding, you understand me, right?😁) to continue the battle.
Or another case. The squad was ambushed (they will be, right the developers?😁). You cannot save cartridges there and think what you will do tomorrow. There you need to answer with all the weapons that are. Here and now. But your "ability", sorry, will reload in two turns... Thanks...
What can I say about poorly implemented ability mechanics, infinite ammo mechanics, rigidly assigned classes without the ability to change weapons? All this reduces variability and leads to uniformity. I am for having a choice, I am for diversity.

[GODSPEED]

3 hours ago, CatsPaw said:

I am for having a choice, I am for diversity.

Freedom...

...to do what you want, how you want, when you want.


This is what I love so much about Jagged Alliance. No limitations. I can give Biff some RDX and ask him to go plant a bomb... It is also why I have more trouble really likign the new ways of making simplified games.

I can give Flo a Heavy Machine Gun and make her run until she falls from fatigue...


These are stupid examples.. but they go to prove that I have complete freedom to do whatever I want with the mercs, regardless level, skills, abilities or if they are even good at something. I have the freedom to see them fail as miserably as I want to risk them.


To me, SUPPRESSION is an important aspect that combines well with physical bullets that can actually travel and hit objects or others in the path. I hope they have both these basic features!

[CatsPaw]

On 11/12/2021 at 3:35 AM, GODSPEED said:

To me, SUPPRESSION is an important aspect that combines well with physical bullets that can actually travel and hit objects or others in the path. I hope they have both these basic features!

Agree. Without physical bullets, the game will be somewhat simplistic. I think the atmosphere in JA2 is closely related to the ballistic feel. This component gave a lot to the original.