Suggestions regarding the combat

[Claudius33]

@Reloecc Hm, you should also make another list, why the game does not look xcomish.

Kordanor has replied, already. So no point in developing more.

Just a few additions

Perks, especially active perks are questionable sure, how can Fidel pull the pin out of two grenades quickly enough?

Just don't use them. And for the record perks date from ... Fallout 1

Again it's a tactical RPG not a military similator. Who can stand an AK burst, stay on his feet and heavily wounded accurately shoot back, if not in a game.

Squad inventory was used in JA Flashback, which by the way used the same "xcomish" visuals. Didn't remember that many complaints regarding visuals and squad inventory at that time, ok there were other reasons.

Sure enemies look a bit all alike. In a 3D zoomable environment, if you don't use tricks like helmets or masks, you need quite a lot of faces if you don't want them to look like clones, more over like important NPCs or mercs.

 

Edited April 25, 2023 by Claudius33
syntax

[Reloecc]

16 minutes ago, Kordanor said:

colorful can/can't shoot movement boundaries (visual)
Not sure what you mean with boundaries. Or do you mean the interface? You can also add, that it's 3D (and 3D = Xcom apparently, but at least it's not 3D= realtime anymore)

Everytime you control your merc, you can see yellow and blue areas around a merc. Areas are for "you can run there and have enough ap to shoot after" and for "if you reach this, you can't shoot with selected weapon anymore". It's very same as move/sprint areas in new XCOM games.

21 minutes ago, Kordanor said:

squad inventory (with ammo etc.) (gameplay)
Guess so, don't remember squad inventory or anything like that in NuXCom and havent played XCom2

I meant: In xcom games, you don't bother with meds / ammo / granades etc. You don't care its weight and what merc will carry it. JA3 devs said "we do handle weight in inventory", but on the other side, you can just put important stuff in squad inv, where you don't care. So.. it's just closer to xcom, not same.

[Claudius33]

4 minutes ago, Reloecc said:

I meant: In xcom games, you don't bother with meds / ammo / granades etc. You don't care its weight and what merc will carry it. JA3 devs said "we do handle weight in inventory", but on the other side, you can just put important stuff in squad inv, where you don't care. So.. it's just closer to xcom, not same.

Actually you can't put weapons in the squad inventory. No way you let invisible mules carry your precious mortars and LMGs or any weapon you want to sell.

Apparently you can put ammo (don't kwnow for heavy ammo such as rockets), and ressources such as medecinal herbs, spare parts.

[Reloecc]

6 minutes ago, Claudius33 said:

@Reloecc Hm, you should also make another list, why the game does not look xcomish.

I am not doubting there are many differences from xcom. You said "JA3 has nothing to do with XCOM" and I have to point things out for you.

 

6 minutes ago, Claudius33 said:

Again it's a tactical RPG not a military simulator. Who can stand an AK burst, stay on his feet and heavily wounded accurately shoot back, if not in a game.

Thing is.. JA2 is meant to be (a little crazy) military simulator. While XCOM is meant to be tactical arcade game.

 

12 minutes ago, Claudius33 said:

Squad inventory was used in JA Flashback, which by the way used the same "xcomish" visuals. Didn't remember that many complaints regarding visuals and squad inventory at that time, ok there were other reasons.

Look.. when the community compares xcom and ja, they talk about its most succesful versions. Those are Xcom2/Xcom:EU and JA2/JA2:Wildfire .. there are core fans for everything. And conservative or progressive people around. But stuff going around currenty is meant this way. Flashback has under 50 % ranking everywhere.. don't open up this box 😉

 

19 minutes ago, Claudius33 said:

Sure enemies look a bit all alike. In a 3D zoomable environment, if you don't use tricks like helmets or masks, you need quite a lot of faces if you don't want them to look like clones, more over like important NPCs or mercs.

It's not about look.. Yes, recolored parts would be nice. But it's about their predefined types, where you know what to expect from them (snipers, grenadiers, suicidal melees, etc.) with their different AI behaviour and equipment. That's what xcom does. That's what ja didn't do.

[Reloecc]

7 minutes ago, Claudius33 said:

Actually you can't put weapons in the squad inventory. No way you let invisible mules carry your precious mortars and LMGs or any weapon you want to sell.

Apparently you can put ammo (don't kwnow for heavy ammo such as rockets), and ressources such as medecinal herbs, spare parts.

I am aware of that.. and still see it irritating.

[Kordanor]

22 minutes ago, Reloecc said:

Everytime you control your merc, you can see yellow and blue areas around a merc. Areas are for "you can run there and have enough ap to shoot after" and for "if you reach this, you can't shoot with selected weapon anymore". It's very same as move/sprint areas in new XCOM games.

Ah, alright, yeah, thats more on the UI side. And if resolution allowed it back then, JA1/2 might have had that as well I guess. But back then the resolution just wasn't high enough to make it look pretty. Instead UFO as well as JA1 used a "reserve" option, which was basically the same. Once the merc ran a certain range, he automatically stopped so that you can still shoot.

 

Edited April 25, 2023 by Kordanor

[Reloecc]

7 minutes ago, Kordanor said:

Ah, alright, yeah, thats more on the UI side. And if resolution allowed it back then, JA1/2 might have had that as well I guess. But back then the resolution just wasn't high enough to make it look pretty. Instead UFO as well as JA1 used a "reserve" option, which was basically the same. Once the merc ran a certain range, he automatically stopped so that you can still shoot.

Yes yes.. it's a visual thing. All those little things alltogether are the reasons people see xcom in ja3.. I am trying not to judge if those similarities are bad or good (in this topic), just tried to express what I see.

Edited April 25, 2023 by Reloecc

[Hendrix]

Falling back on my earlier post about sniper rifles looking overpowered, I think theres an additional option to balance them a bit.

I would assume the game could fairly easily keep track on your preferred playstyle, like if you are getting 90% of your kills with sniper rifles during daytime. The game could then force you out of your comfort zone by deciding to attack you during night time when you're mercs sight ranges are limited to short or in best case medium range. To make these attacks further challenging the game should be smart enough to divide the attackers in several smaller groups and having the groups trying to flank your mercs, instead of them moving in clusters.

The same system could be used on the opposite side of the spectrum aswell, if you are depending on night time stealth, having gear modified and perks setup for this. Then an all out forceful attack during daytime on your mercs could very well be to your disadvantage.

Further option could be enemy mortars trying to take out your snipers if you are camping to much wich would be a realistic approach on how to deal with snipers in general, haven't given this last one much thought how it would properly work in game though.

[Reloecc]

12 minutes ago, Hendrix said:

Falling back on my earlier post about sniper rifles looking overpowered, I think theres an additional option to balance them a bit.

I'd balance sniping by tunnel vision sight + flanks. So if you leave your sniper scoping all the time from the distance (because scoping in costs a lot of ap), you can't see enemies approaching from the sides. I would not care about playstyles.. enemies should flank you regardless your weapon choices.

It could be like: scoping + first shot costs 10 ap + 20% aim penalty, second costs 5 ap and 10% aim penalty, third (and more) shot is 5 ap and no penalty.

Edited April 25, 2023 by Reloecc

[Hendrix]

8 minutes ago, Reloecc said:

I would not care about playstyles.. enemies should flank you regardless your weapon choices.

Absolutely.

What I specifically meant was that enemies shouldn't bunch togheter when deploying in a sector they are attacking. To further enable them to flank you.

If they start bunched togheter you have a much easier job locking them down and they have nowhere to go.

[Solaris_Wave]

If an enemy ended their turn running, then they should definitely be harder to hit as they are a moving target. Likewise, they shouldn't be able to shoot without a high accuracy penalty, or not be allowed to shoot at all, if they are running. The same thing applies to your mercs too.

[anon474]

On 4/23/2023 at 8:46 PM, Claudius33 said:

It's quite a challenge to satisfy both JA2 vets and new players fed with XCOM regarding the combat. May be some options should do the trick and make everybody happy.

Hopefully a least some of them could be implemented without significant modifications of code. It's just display/do not display options that do not change the combat itself or a trigger/do not trigger option the foes initial move.

1/ CTH (journalists/influencers can kill the game just for that)

• This is the way : Do not show hit percentage
• You know nothing, Jon Snow : Show hit percentage

2/ Foes repositioning when the party is detected (some are complaining that kills the ambush they have prepared)

• I'm ready for anything : foes repositioning is allowed
• I love it when a plan comes together! : foes repositioning is not allowed

3/ Show / Do not show cover on projected location (in order to get rid of the the game is too much streamlined potential criticism)

• Behind that rock I'm not a sitting duck : Do not show cover
• You sure I can duck behind that little rock? : Show cover

4/ Show / Do not show lines of sight/fire on projected location (same reason)

• I'm sure I snipe him from there : do not show lines of sight
• Are you sure I see him from there? : show lines of sight

In bold the default options.

 

 

Basically I think you're saying add CtH which I don't disagree with, but the other changes either dont matter or are very small.

If you don't reposition patrols it's just SO EASY to ambush them with a grenade. Maybe make this only take place with a patrol that's very close together, not just any group of enemies.

I don't think the last two points matter that much, no offense.

Edited April 25, 2023 by anon474

[Claudius33]

@anon474 No offense taken. I'm just saying that same people would like to have a CtH, some others less 'xcomish' visual help. As for me I'm fine with the current choices. I also agree that none of these options really matter to an experienced player. Therefore options may attract a larger audience. Anyway that's Haemimont's call.

I played (and enjoyed, shame on me XCOM), I didn't pay attention that much to the CtH. You quickly estimate odds, and in a desperate position try your luck against all odds.

@Reloecc

6 hours ago, Reloecc said:

Thing is.. JA2 is meant to be (a little crazy) military simulator. While XCOM is meant to be tactical arcade game.

Sorry I somehow disagree. If JA2 was a military similator you would engage pixel size enemies at 200 meters and spend a lot of ammo before hitting anything. Damages inflicted are RPG based. IRL, even protected if you are hit in the chest you are at least knocked down.

One of JA greatest force is to have put a fun consistent world, compressing ranges but keeping it logic (Pistols ranges < SMG/Shotguns < AR < SR), and favoring tactical placement with a brilliant interruption system preventing players to roam freely when it's their turn.

 

Edited April 25, 2023 by Claudius33
presentation syntax

[Reloecc]

4 hours ago, anon474 said:

If you don't reposition patrols it's just SO EASY to ambush them with a grenade. Maybe make this only take place with a patrol that's very close together, not just any group of enemies.

Yes.. and that's why the JA2 has not granades laying everywhere. Tossing them may result in terrible fails. To balance things. Also enemies stands in good cover when guarding, other enemies patrols around. And if you use granade to one of them, 10 others will come to investigate. That's an awesome system. All that (and more) turned into "we don't bother, just make them to find cover".

[Claudius33]

I agree with both of you. Again suggested options are meant to attract more players, that's all. I've seen quite a lot of complaints about the initial repositioning. If I remember correctly the same complaints were addressed to XCOM too 🤪.

Edited April 25, 2023 by Claudius33
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[WILDFIRE]

I think the stealth mode should be really diversified. Realistically by daylight it should be really hard to conquer a sector in stealth mode, because the enemies can see you very easy (expect you have a sneaking pro in your team)

 

But at night you have the advantage and with equipment like a night vision device it should be easier to conquer a sector completely silent. I want to point out that the day time should have a big influence on the stealth mode, so that you often have to decide if you wait for the night or if you maybe take a different route to get to your mission goal.

 

Those aspects change the way how you play the game so I hope the devs designed the stealth mode really deep and connected it with the day time and weather.

[Image Miroir]

I don't understand this problem being compared to X-Com.

X-Com is a great game, so being compared to a great game is not shameful.

Will people purchase X-Com instead of JA? I see no X-Com in release this year or the next.

So, I believe you made a benchmark between JA and other turn based strategy games, and then you choose a game mechanic. So, CtH or no CtH, is easy to answer: "what do people want?" (you can also complete this question by "do people know what they really want?")

Personally it's not the CtH that make me consider JA is different from X-Com. The atmosphere and protagonists are the difference. In X-Com you're an organisation, in Jagged Alliance you're a band of brothers. You're not trying to save the universe, you're just here for adrenalin. No conspiracies here, just greed and bloodlust.

[Kordanor]

3 minutes ago, Image Miroir said:

I don't understand this problem being compared to X-Com.

X-Com is a great game, so being compared to a great game is not shameful.

Will people purchase X-Com instead of JA? I see no X-Com in release this year or the next.

So, I believe you made a benchmark between JA and other turn based strategy games, and then you choose a game mechanic. So, CtH or no CtH, is easy to answer: "what do people want?" (you can also complete this question by "do people know what they really want?")

Personally it's not the CtH that make me consider JA is different from X-Com. The atmosphere and protagonists are the difference. In X-Com you're an organisation, in Jagged Alliance you're a band of brothers. You're not trying to save the universe, you're just here for adrenalin. No conspiracies here, just greed and bloodlust.

The problem is something like RPS articles which are basically: I played XCom, XCom has CTH and is great. JA3 is like XCom but has no CTH, therefore its bad.

And personally I think JA should cater towards the JA community and not towards the XCom community.

[Image Miroir]

@Kordanor I understand better. But trying to educate stupid people often ends up as a waste of time.

Honestly, I don't know if I belong to JA community or X-Com community. I played X-Com because I loved so much Jagged Alliance that I wanted more, and I enjoy both.

I think speaking about community is a bit artificial. I think a good idea should not be rejected because it's from X-Com, and a bad idea shouldn't be kept because it's from Jagged Alliance. This said, JA has a history and style that shouldn't be betrayed.

After, it's all about communication. Maybe to explain "journalists" and influencers why this option was selected, how it's part of the game's traditions. Personally I find more immersive not to have CtH, now if it helps JA to be more successful including them, it's not a drama either.

[Elder III]

It is perfectly fine to like XCOM and to like Jagged Alliance both. I don't mind in the least if those two franchises overlap each other in some ways (referring primarily to gameplay). I personally think the setting of each franchise is different enough to keep them distinct.  Others may disagree on that; different strokes for different folks as the saying goes.

[Solaris_Wave]

I am more against the XCOM reboot because I played the original X-COM games (damn them with the hyphen/no hyphen, same name and subtitle). While the originals could be considered clunky by today's standards, they were far more flexible and didn't have obvious omissions for the sake of game balancing.

 

4 hours ago, Kordanor said:

The problem is something like RPS articles which are basically: I played XCom, XCom has CTH and is great. JA3 is like XCom but has no CTH, therefore its bad.

And personally I think JA should cater towards the JA community and not towards the XCom community.

I whole-heartedly agree with this. It is challenging what people are used to, therefore there is a bias. However, the old percentage to hit calculation has been around before even old X-COM.

 

5 hours ago, WILDFIRE said:

I think the stealth mode should be really diversified. Realistically by daylight it should be really hard to conquer a sector in stealth mode, because the enemies can see you very easy (expect you have a sneaking pro in your team)

 

But at night you have the advantage and with equipment like a night vision device it should be easier to conquer a sector completely silent. I want to point out that the day time should have a big influence on the stealth mode, so that you often have to decide if you wait for the night or if you maybe take a different route to get to your mission goal.

Unless your mercs are camouflaged (like in JA2), there should be definite advantages to waiting for night-time. Not only that but weather would play a role as well, whether it is rain, thunderstorms, sandstorms, mist and fog.

[Hendrix]

I have said these things several times before but here we go again. 🙂

I played and enjoyed the new xcom games for what they are, wich is a basically a simplified D&D game. You do not rely on "tactics" all that much but instead on the builds/abilities/perks of the squad to get you through combat.

I would not want that sort of gameplay from a developer claiming they are developing a true JA sequel and not a new xcom. Why? Because in JA2 you cannot depend on a mercs stat and equipment alone to get you through combat. If you make stupid decisions you will pay for it. Just because your merc has the highest level and stats possible in the game, a level 1 enemy can still take you out if you are not careful. You cannot run up into a group of enemies and depend on some perk/skill that will melee kill all the enemies around the merc to death when they try to move (like D&D attacks of opportunity). Your snipers doesn't have a perk allowing them to magically engage any opponent the squad can see on the map no matter if the sniper has a line of sight or not to the target. That is the realistic aspect of JA2 that I have enjoyed so much through the years.

Edited April 27, 2023 by Hendrix
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[Solaris_Wave]

Another difference between XCOM and the Jagged Alliance series is that XCOM sometimes has asymmetrical combat. The aliens might be close-combat capable only, use guns or use psionic attacks that can work regardless of line of sight or range. Meanwhile, JA is always symmetrical as both sides use the same types of weapons against one another. That means that different tactics are needed. Like you point out, equipment and the soldier's attributes might give you an edge but can't guarantee a win.

JA3 sounds as if the developers might be trying to place perks and abilities in a greater emphasis, maybe to bring out each merc's individuality. Some of those perks sound fine but I wonder about others, such as throwing two grenades at once, or what was something I recently read, the ability to throw knives better while drunk.

I would still prefer to use group tactics and efficiency, as opposed to 'super powers'.

Edited April 27, 2023 by Solaris_Wave

[WILDFIRE]

I think JA3 should not be a game for casual players. I know if you want to sell more copies you sometimes have to please a wide audience but I think JA is not the type of game where you can simplify elements. Sure a better UI for example where you can reach all important gameplay elements very fast and easy is something that works but the combat or the inventory should be complex, clever and deep.

 

The same goes for the humour that can not be streamlined for a casual audience. It is raw and dark but that is JA at its core. What if you take a movie like Commando with Arnold Schwarzenegger and remake it with the current Marvel Humour. It simply does not work.

 

Today hardcore games like Dark Souls can also reach a wide audience and JA3 could be the Dark Souls of strategy turn based games. That does not mean that it has to be super hard but that it is not dumbed down and that you can dive deep into its complexity.

 

So please stop with the argument that we have to show the CTH, because the people may not understand the gameplay. In what times we live in where one successful game has to be copied over and over again, because the players can not learn something new? When you want to please everyone in the end no one will like your game.

 

There must be a heart and a soul in a game not a dumbed down gameplay mix that is forgotten in one or two years. Look at the FromSoftware Games. They created unique and complex games and the players had to change their mind and not the other way around.

 

So I say create the combat as hardcore and complex as possible and only modernize those elements that helps the players to get access to the game and to teach them how the mechanics work. The more JA3 has its own soul and gameplay features the more the people will not see it as a simple copy of XCOM. We already have many of those boring turn based games at the stores and it would be a shame if JA3 will be the next soulless title that only lives in the shadows of the nuXCOMs.

Edited April 28, 2023 by WILDFIRE

[Lunokhod]

2 hours ago, WILDFIRE said:

So I say create the combat as hardcore and complex as possible

Correct! This is the first thing they had to do when they started working on the game. Make good and interesting combat. When i look at this closed beta footage - it looks so boring, so awful... Especially for players who played JA2 Night Ops.