My verdict so far...

[D13]

@sandman25dcsss  Not really, release notes only say: "Revolvers now get reduced penalty when targeting body parts like handguns". Not sure about run&gun, but for point blank headshots with the Hi-Power I see a big difference (more hits with less aiming). Can't back it up with numbers though as I don't have the CtH mod.

[sandman25dcsss]

5 minutes ago, D13 said:

@sandman25dcsss  Not really, release notes only say: "Revolvers now get reduced penalty when targeting body parts like handguns". Not sure about run&gun, but for point blank headshots with the Hi-Power I see a big difference (more hits with less aiming). Can't back it up with numbers though as I don't have the CtH mod.

I use CtH and I am not impressed with numbers. Handguns really need a CtH bonus for close distance to make them comparable to other weapon types. Not from perk, but intrinsic bonus. Maybe even give extra damage depending on distance, though it will not be implemented because of "realism" despite it would be great for game balance.

[Solaris_Wave]

45 minutes ago, D13 said:

20) (leg hits)  I'm under the impression that leg hits work the same for both sides; 300% increased movement cost for next turn, then after that turn, back to normal. I don't mind them shaking it off after a while, but having that massive penalty go away entirely after one turn I find a bit weird (it would feel more natural to have the effect lowered by perhaps one third per subsequent turn, until it becomes barely noticeable).

I didn't really pay enough attention to realise that (oddly) these penalties only last for one turn and then they are ok afterwards (almost like suppression). One turn's duration definitely isn't enough to make it worth doing. I would still prefer a permanent effect however, at least until healed.

 

50 minutes ago, D13 said:

9) (injured enemies)  It's true that automatic AP penalties due to HP loss devalue body part targeting. I have to admit that in JA2, I hardly ever aimed at legs, maybe occasionally if other body parts were too heavily armored, but I suspect the majority of my leg hits were actually stray bullets. Most of the time the decision would be between head and torso, based on CtH and armor. In JA3, I'm more frequently aiming for arms and legs.

I rarely aimed at the legs either. While it was handy to occasionally cause them to collapse (and if badly hurt, they would get up and then fall again, using up APs), it was still preferable for me to kill them outright. I had other guys to kill as well so I didn't want to keep too many opponents in the fight.

 

All of this contrasts with the Fallout series of games. Fallout 1 & 2 were out around the same time as JA2 and had the same isometric perspective and turn-based combat. You had even more body parts to aim at in those games and a critical hit really meant something, whichever limb or important location you or they hit.

[Solaris_Wave]

8 minutes ago, sandman25dcsss said:

I use CtH and I am not impressed with numbers. Handguns really need a CtH bonus for close distance to make them comparable to other weapon types. Not from perk, but intrinsic bonus. Maybe even give extra damage depending on distance, though it will not be implemented because of "realism" despite it would be great for game balance.

From a game and real life perspective, handguns are quick to aim with and very manoeuvrable, which makes them useful for Close Quarters Battle. Without having enough parameters built in to the game, I think that one way to represent this would be to give them a low AP cost to aim and to shoot. That wouldn't make them overpowered. They would still have range limitation, damage limitation (especially to body armour) and limited rate of fire.

[sandman25dcsss]

7 minutes ago, Solaris_Wave said:

From a game and real life perspective, handguns are quick to aim with and very manoeuvrable, which makes them useful for Close Quarters Battle. Without having enough parameters built in to the game, I think that one way to represent this would be to give them a low AP cost to aim and to shoot. That wouldn't make them overpowered. They would still have range limitation, damage limitation (especially to body armour) and limited rate of fire.

The game uses model of "every weapon has the same basic accuracy which does not depend on distance until half range". Even from point of realism it is completely wrong and it kills weapon balance too. Give handguns intrinsic accuracy bonus, make it scale with distance and we can have nice handguns with 100% CtH for headshots at point blank range. That would be a great reason to attack at close range. Though it would be much easier to die too.

Edited August 28, 2023 by sandman25dcsss

[D13]

26 minutes ago, sandman25dcsss said:

I use CtH and I am not impressed with numbers. Handguns really need a CtH bonus for close distance to make them comparable to other weapon types. Not from perk, but intrinsic bonus. Maybe even give extra damage depending on distance, though it will not be implemented because of "realism" despite it would be great for game balance.

I could see them bypassing armor at point blank distance, as in reality it is probably easier to point a handgun at an unarmored area of a body part (?)

And there are enemy classes that get close to a merc, and then when you want to shoot them they get to attack you first with knife or shotgun. If handguns allowed for point blank shots that do not trigger immediate enemy response actions, I think that would make them very useful in a somewhat realistic way (= being faster in point blank situations).

Edited August 28, 2023 by D13
clarification

[sandman25dcsss]

24 minutes ago, D13 said:

I could see them bypassing armor at point blank distance, as in reality it is probably easier to point a handgun at an unarmored area of a body part (?)

And there are enemy classes that get close to a merc, and then when you want to shoot them they get to attack you first with knife or shotgun. If handguns allowed for point blank shots that do not trigger immediate enemy response actions, I think that would make them very useful in a somewhat realistic way (= being faster in point blank situations).

Yes, good idea, currently melee overwatch is too strong.

[Solaris_Wave]

36 minutes ago, sandman25dcsss said:

The game uses model of "every weapon has the same basic accuracy which does not depend on distance until half range".

Which makes me wonder, what is half range? Half the range of the gun's total range or half the range of the small game maps? The former makes more sense from a logical standpoint but the actual result isn't good. Some guns are more accurate than others. Some guns are designed to be accurate at short ranges and not beyond that. A pistol is accurate enough for the ranges it was designed for (provided it was an accurate enough pistol to begin with. Some really do suck.) but a rifle with a long barrel will be accurate too, just in a different way. I would rather have a short barrelled weapon for targets up close, indoors or outdoors, as they are faster to aim.

I can see Haemimont's reason for working out the guns like that but it creates limitations, like you have pointed out.

 

30 minutes ago, D13 said:

I could see them bypassing armor at point blank distance, as in reality it is probably easier to point a handgun at an unarmored area of a body part (?)

That was my reasoning for limiting body part aiming to close ranges especially. Your mercs and enemy soldiers would be able to aim at specific body parts, meaning fights in buildings would be dangerous and would require teams to clear rooms. Close range, you can aim for the head (or face), the legs and feet, the arms and hands (although the latter is very hard to do regardless).

Some pistol calibre cartridges are designed to penetrate body armour a lot better than others. A good case of example is 5.7x28mm and 4.6x30mm. Unfortunately, the 5.7mm, or more correctly, the FN P90 is often wildly overpowered in many games. It has good body armour penetration but it isn't that much better against human tissue than the best 9mm Parabellum rounds. The same applies to material penetration, such as walls.

 

30 minutes ago, D13 said:

And there are enemy classes that get close to a merc, and then when you want to shoot them they get to attack you first with knife or shotgun. If handguns allowed for point blank shots that do not trigger immediate enemy response actions, I think that would make them very useful in a somewhat realistic way (= being faster in point blank situations).

That would be handy. When those Legion brawlers just run up to your mercs and start scoring high damage hits and you can't do much except watch your mercs collapse, it can get annoying. A handgun could provide a handy defense, especially if you have a long gun that makes it harder to aim at something close to you.

It is a shame that the shotguns get that first attack bonus against your mercs. A shotgun is just as long as a full length rifle. It shouldn't get the same fast response bonus as a knife. It is already powerful enough.

Edited August 28, 2023 by Solaris_Wave

[sandman25dcsss]

@Solaris_Wave

Half of weapon range. So if weapon has range 30, it means there is accuracy penalty at range 16 and beyond.

[CersaisAdvocate]

19 hours ago, Solaris_Wave said:

 

 

I was meaning melee combat. If two combatants are both standing, they have an equal chance at hitting one another, the same if both are crouched or both are prone. If someone standing was trying to stab someone prone, that would be difficult as they would need to get lower to do so. It would also be harder for a prone combatant to stab a standing combatant. Therefore, I was thinking that there should be a larger accuracy penalty if the attacker was two 'stances' different to the target, and a smaller accuracy penalty if only one stance different to the target. Crouching would be the average stance against standing or prone targets.

I was thinking about it when a Legion soldier happily ran up to my prone merc who was providing long range fire, stood one space away and started slashing with his knife. He never missed once and did lots of damage each time. I wasn't trying get my merc to attack him back via melee. I was trying to shoot him or move out of the way. Everything I did caused an interrupt where the Legion soldier got a free attack because he was in melee range. My merc was quickly knocked out and I had to spend a few turns shooting at the Legion brawler with another merc. In the meantime, the Legion soldier just stood there taking bullets like a champ (or a robot/super soldier) without ever thinking he was in pain or that it might be a good idea to find cover.

Yes I think you are wrong here. There is really nothing that hinders someone standing to stab someone who lies on the ground. Try it yourself (do not attack real people, just take something approximately the size of a knife and try to stab the floor). You do not need to get on your knees or something. I can do that without much afford and I am pretty untrained.

On the other hand someone who is lying on the ground (on his belly even) is an easy target an nearly helpless to defend against an melee attack.

[Solaris_Wave]

I would liked to have seen damage reduction at long ranges rather than a gun suddenly being useless beyond a certain distance. It would be a little more to program but why should a bullet or the gun that fires it, achieve 100% damage all the way to its max range and then one space beyond that, suddenly drop to zero?

Again, this was something I suggested some time ago during development. Rifles with shorter barrels, such as a compact 5.56mm chambered rifle, see a greater loss of lethality with the bullet once it falls below a certain speed. The velocity isn't there to cause the bullet to fragment enough. You can still hit with it at longer ranges but it is a lot weaker. The point of those short barrel carbines though is enhanced firepower against human tissue and body armour, compared to pistol calibres (used by SMGs) at close range. At close range, the velocity is still high enough.

Edited August 28, 2023 by Solaris_Wave

[Solaris_Wave]

I am not suree if this is a bug or working as intended. I had my I.M.P. set up his RPK-74 in Overwatch overlooking a group of recently surprised enemies. He had plenty of Action Points to spend. One Legion soldier at the back of the group made a move and my I.M.P. opened up, killing the Legion soldier. Then, at the front of the enemy group, a Legion Butcher ran into the Overwatch cone and carried on running through it, towards Barry, where he stood there and attacked Barry twice with his melee weapon. That very badly wounded Barry. Why didn't the Butcher trigger Overwatch as he moved through the cone? I thought that was the point of Overwatch!

Does Overwatch use up Action Points after shooting at one enemy, and if so, what is the point of it, if a regular attack is just as sufficient? Legion soldiers that go into Overwatch get to attack as quickly and as often as they like.

Just to clarify: no part of the Overwatch cone was chequered.

Edited August 29, 2023 by Solaris_Wave

[sandman25dcsss]

As I learned today, there is a point-blank bonus for handguns, +15% accuracy:

 

@Solaris_Wave

Enemies can have perk to ignore overwatch too, especially melee guys.

[Solaris_Wave]

Just now, sandman25dcsss said:

Enemies can have perk to ignore overwatch too, especially melee guys.

Is there somewhere that I am able to see that perk? I didn't know the enemy could do that. That makes them even more powerful and defeats the point of Overwatch. If Legion Butchers can all ignore Overwatch and just run up and start slashing away with their blades, imagine a whole squad of the bastards.

[Solaris_Wave]

3 minutes ago, sandman25dcsss said:

As I learned today, there is a point-blank bonus for handguns, +15% accuracy

That is a good thing to see. I am glad that there is a bonus for handguns. I would like it to be a little higher actually. Any weapon classed as very short in length would benefit as such. Even machine pistols and short SMGs.

[sandman25dcsss]

1 minute ago, Solaris_Wave said:

Is there somewhere that I am able to see that perk? I didn't know the enemy could do that. That makes them even more powerful and defeats the point of Overwatch. If Legion Butchers can all ignore Overwatch and just run up and start slashing away with their blades, imagine a whole squad of the bastards.

I don't think there is a way to see it.

Yes, you are supposed to run into surprises in this game, that's the whole point of hiding CtH, enemy HP etc.

[Solaris_Wave]

Another question I have is how to best initiate combat without the enemies repositioning? I had my group all in Stealth mode and lying prone. An exclamation mark appeared over the head of one Legion soldier but they hadn't fully detected any of my squad. I decided to attack first and used Buns to shoot with her sniper rifle. It didn't kill the enemy soldier but it was a suppressed shot and my squad remained undetected.

Is there a way to follow up the attack with another one from another merc before the enemy gets to reposition? I don't like how they were caught by surprise and before anyone else in my squad could continue the ambush, the enemy soldiers all got to reposition and set up two Overwatch cones, meaning they had the advantage. I could understand it if they caught my squad by surprise but they didn't. It seems impossible to do anything with more than one merc before the entire enemy unit gets to do what it wants.

[sandman25dcsss]

1 hour ago, Solaris_Wave said:

Another question I have is how to best initiate combat without the enemies repositioning? I had my group all in Stealth mode and lying prone. An exclamation mark appeared over the head of one Legion soldier but they hadn't fully detected any of my squad. I decided to attack first and used Buns to shoot with her sniper rifle. It didn't kill the enemy soldier but it was a suppressed shot and my squad remained undetected.

Is there a way to follow up the attack with another one from another merc before the enemy gets to reposition? I don't like how they were caught by surprise and before anyone else in my squad could continue the ambush, the enemy soldiers all got to reposition and set up two Overwatch cones, meaning they had the advantage. I could understand it if they caught my squad by surprise but they didn't. It seems impossible to do anything with more than one merc before the entire enemy unit gets to do what it wants.

Use Fox (restores AP if initiates combat and then enemy is surprised) and Grizzly (free attack on combat start), ideally with Raven (criticals debuff by overwatch area). That's 2 free attacks before enemy can react, probably with criticals. Add Raider for even more fun as he can increase ovewatch accuracy.

Edited August 29, 2023 by sandman25dcsss

[D13]

1 hour ago, Solaris_Wave said:

Why didn't the Butcher trigger Overwatch as he moved through the cone? I thought that was the point of Overwatch!

Overwatch does not always trigger, even with enough AP/attacks left, and the status bar at the top of the screen (where it says "player's turn" etc) will then read "Overwatch failed".

When you move the mouse pointer over the Overwatch button (the one used to set up the Overwatch cone), a tooltip pane opens with the AP cost, and at the bottom it will state the maximum number of resulting Overwatch attacks.

 

1 hour ago, Solaris_Wave said:

Does Overwatch use up Action Points after shooting at one enemy, and if so, what is the point of it, if a regular attack is just as sufficient?

I will try to answer backwards: if a regular attack really is sufficient, then I usually prefer the regular attack, simply because it grants more control over the situation. But let's say there is an enemy  20 tiles away, carrying a pistol with range 10, and your rifle's effective range is 15. In that situation, I might set up a short Overwatch cone to only attack the enemy if he gets close enough to become a danger, and close enough for my merc to actually hit them.

For what it's worth - in my experience, Overwatch becomes more useful (and fun) as the game progresses, as maps become more complex, and as enemies become more varied. In the very early game (Ernie island and maybe ~5 more sectors), Overwatch often felt like the solution to a problem I did not really have at the time. In addition, I may have made the mistake of treating it too much like an interrupt setup in JA2: I set it up just so it would trigger and grant me additional attacks, rather than guarding tactically important areas. Overwatch shines on maps with choke points, in situations where enemy presence is tolerable just as long as they don't get beyond a certain point, and in situations where combat starts before you had the chance to secure the area behind or next to you. On Ernie, most map setups are too linear to be approached in ways other than the obvious one, which is fine for a "tutorial island". But later maps are less of a one-way street.

[D13]

1 hour ago, Solaris_Wave said:

Is there a way to follow up the attack with another one from another merc before the enemy gets to reposition?

Yes, but I haven't really figured out how it works. I have one save where I can easily replicate it:

Here, Kalyna and Buns are hidden, combat has not started, both have sniper rifles without silencers.

Kalyna kills one enemy, the others are surprised and right next to the body. But I get the first turn, and now Buns can kill a second enemy. Only then will they get their repositioning turn. If I do it the other way around (Buns, then Kalyna) it will work as well. But if the first shot does not kill, it will not work and they get to reposition immediately.

I'm not sure if this is a bug, as I don't think it worked that way in version 1.0, or if it is a feature to reward a clean initial kill with everyone being startled for a second.

[sandman25dcsss]

6 minutes ago, D13 said:

I'm not sure if this is a bug, as I don't think it worked that way in version 1.0, or if it is a feature to reward a clean initial kill with everyone being startled for a second.

As far as I recall it always worked this way.

a) If you kill enemy, you don't lose stealth and other enemies are surprised and don't move until your next attack (you can even move all your mercs, it is tactical mode already).

b) If you fail to kill enemy, you lose stealth and they move instantly.

Advantage of initiating combat with Fox is that enemies don't move even if she does not kill enemy and thus loses stealth.

Edited August 29, 2023 by sandman25dcsss

[Solaris_Wave]

2 hours ago, sandman25dcsss said:

Use Fox (restores AP if initiates combat and then enemy is surprised) and Grizzly (free attack on combat start), ideally with Raven (criticals debuff by overwatch area). That's 2 free attacks before enemy can react, probably with criticals. Add Raider for even more fun as he can increase ovewatch accuracy.

That is handy to know. I have Fox on my team but none of the others. If I am setting up an ambush, I usually start the show with Buns or Mouse, depending on whether I want to open up with a sniper shot or tickle one of the Legion with a knife.

 

2 hours ago, D13 said:

Overwatch does not always trigger, even with enough AP/attacks left, and the status bar at the top of the screen (where it says "player's turn" etc) will then read "Overwatch failed".

When you move the mouse pointer over the Overwatch button (the one used to set up the Overwatch cone), a tooltip pane opens with the AP cost, and at the bottom it will state the maximum number of resulting Overwatch attacks.

I didn't see an 'Overwatch failed' notification, which would have at least given me some sort of idea as to what was going on. Instead, the Legion Butcher just gallivanted through the cone, practically saying, "Don't mind me, just popping over to stab Barry."

Annoyingly, Barry was crouched not far from my I.M.P. who was set up with the RPK-74. My I.M.P. really should have been able to start shooting at the Butcher, given his prone position and no obstructions. There was a clear field of fire, plenty of Action Points and the RPK is fully set up for sustained fire.

I will have to check the Tooltip, just in case.

[D13]

1 hour ago, sandman25dcsss said:

As far as I recall it always worked this way.

a) If you kill enemy, you don't lose stealth and other enemies are surprised and don't move until your next attack (you can even move all your mercs, it is tactical mode already).

b) If you fail to kill enemy, you lose stealth and they move instantly.

Advantage of initiating combat with Fox is that enemies don't move even if she does not kill enemy and thus loses stealth.

Your explanation makes sense. Maybe I'm confusing it with situations where you manage to stealth kill in real-time, but you don't see all other enemies, so at first the game stays in real-time. But then as soon as the dead enemy hits the ground, the kill is immediately noticed by an enemy ("enemy noticed someone die"), and enemies get their initially hidden repositioning turn. In that situation, my advantage following the kill is reduced (compared to the previous example, where all enemies stood next to the one who died, but nobody could act on it). 

Here is a similar situation. I kill this trooper in real-time:

Target dead, enemy notices:

Now I get my first turn-based turn only after the enemies have repositioned (Kalyna still hidden)

But there is some inconsistency. I have just replayed this turn multiple times, sometimes there was repositioning of all enemies, sometimes only of one or two, and sometimes none at all. (always kill+noticed+still hidden).

 

[Solaris_Wave]

1 hour ago, D13 said:

Yes, but I haven't really figured out how it works. I have one save where I can easily replicate it:

Here, Kalyna and Buns are hidden, combat has not started, both have sniper rifles without silencers.

Kalyna kills one enemy, the others are surprised and right next to the body. But I get the first turn, and now Buns can kill a second enemy. Only then will they get their repositioning turn. If I do it the other way around (Buns, then Kalyna) it will work as well. But if the first shot does not kill, it will not work and they get to reposition immediately.

I'm not sure if this is a bug, as I don't think it worked that way in version 1.0, or if it is a feature to reward a clean initial kill with everyone being startled for a second.

 

1 hour ago, sandman25dcsss said:

As far as I recall it always worked this way.

a) If you kill enemy, you don't lose stealth and other enemies are surprised and don't move until your next attack (you can even move all your mercs, it is tactical mode already).

b) If you fail to kill enemy, you lose stealth and they move instantly.

Advantage of initiating combat with Fox is that enemies don't move even if she does not kill enemy and thus loses stealth.

The enemy unit, who were casually strolling through with a briefcase full of diamonds, were completely unaware of my mercs, who were all in Stealth mode, lying prone and concealed by bushes. They got pretty close before one of them had an exclamation mark appear over his head, which is usually when I try to enter combat mode. None of my mercs had been detected but suspicion was there and the detection meter would eventually give away my position.

By all rights, my mercs should have been allowed to all act first. Buns hit an enemy in the head, to start the fight. However, it was not enough to kill. It was suppressed and in terms of the game, suppressed shots are really quiet, despite being from a sniper rifle (they are not as quiet in reality). I should have kept the initiative and been able to follow up with other mercs. We had them in a kill box as the enemy were all bunched together. Instead, they got to respond first, spread out, set up two Overwatch cones and get the two Grenadiers into flanking positions.

That really should not be allowed. The reposition feature that Legion gets to enjoy is a really annoying inclusion. It occurs too quickly and much too easily. I could understand it if your mercs were bad at approaching an enemy position but why should they get a free lunch when your mercs are in the perfect ambush position?

[sandman25dcsss]

@D13

Maybe I am wrong then. I will pay more attention in my game and will share results if I see something which differs from my expectations. No reloads though as I play ironman. And no stealth kills due to my mod.