My verdict so far...

[sandman25dcsss]

Yes, I am wrong. Just had a fight where enemies moved instantly despite I killed enemy from stealth, they noticed death.

[D13]

19 hours ago, Solaris_Wave said:

I should have kept the initiative and been able to follow up with other mercs. We had them in a kill box as the enemy were all bunched together. Instead, they got to respond first, spread out, set up two Overwatch cones and get the two Grenadiers into flanking positions.

 

What you could try if you haven't done so already is to set up Overwatch cones yourself, and only then start the attack. Overwatch should be triggered during the enemies' repositioning turn, and remain active for your following turn (assuming your Overwatch attacks have not been spent by then).

I find the resulting action quite realistic, considering that most mercs are not elite soldiers who can pull off perfectly synchronized attacks: while everything is still quiet, the first shot can be a well-timed head shot with the highest aim level. But then all hell breaks loose, and although the other mercs still have the element of surprise on their side, they can now only use the less accurate Overwatch shots.

To illustrate this with an example:

Out of six enemies, my initial attack with a grenade wounded two, killed none. After their repositioning turn, two are dead and three wounded thanks to Overwatch. The risk here is that you commit to Overwatch for your first turn, which means that you end up without APs after the initial enemy movement. But three Overwatch cones are still active, and they will be triggered again during the enemies' first proper turn.

[sandman25dcsss]

I payed more attention and noticed enemies always move instantly in my game, thus I think having another chance to shoot before enemies act is related to stealth kill (that special roll which I disabled via my mod). Even if my unit is still stealthy after killing enemy by dealing 100% HP damage, units move instantly.

[Solaris_Wave]

3 hours ago, D13 said:

What you could try if you haven't done so already is to set up Overwatch cones yourself, and only then start the attack. Overwatch should be triggered during the enemies' repositioning turn, and remain active for your following turn (assuming your Overwatch attacks have not been spent by then).

That is a good idea. I haven't really used Overwatch much but did start to use it recently for anyone overlooking doorways. I was hesitant to set up Overwatch before combat, especially for LMGs as they would be loud and you can't tell your mercs to hold fire but still set up an Overwatch position. I would prefer to initiate combat with suppressed weapons first and then continue with all other weapons. I figured Overwatch would just cause one merc to start firing before I wanted them to.

This might be a silly question but I assume Set Up Machine Gun is the same thing as Overwatch, just renamed? I assume it has the same properties. The reason I ask is that I am still uncertain as to the exact reason the Legion Butcher didn't get shot at and was allowed to run over to Barry and stab him.

 

2 hours ago, sandman25dcsss said:

I payed more attention and noticed enemies always move instantly in my game, thus I think having another chance to shoot before enemies act is related to stealth kill (that special roll which I disabled via my mod). Even if my unit is still stealthy after killing enemy by dealing 100% HP damage, units move instantly.

That is what frustrates me. They are allowed to react before the rest of your squad. You can get into excellent positions on unsuspecting enemies, kill or wound one and then the enemies are allowed to move out of the kill box and make the combat symmetrical. They even get to do it in low light or bad weather, when there should be even less chance to react to your perfectly placed ambush.

It is almost as if you are not really allowed to perform perfectly executed ambushes and that all combat must end up on equal footing.

[D13]

20 hours ago, Solaris_Wave said:

This might be a silly question but I assume Set Up Machine Gun is the same thing as Overwatch, just renamed?

For the most part, including its trigger and tactical purpose, I think so as well. But there are some subtle differences, such as increased accuracy, and the AP cost to end setup and become mobile again. (There is also the convenience of not having to draw the cone afresh every turn, which is something I would like to see for regular Overwatch.)

I don't know how much of a difference the accuracy penalty makes, but Grizzly has an MG specific talent, and in its description it sounds quite severe:

[agris]

this is a very good feedback thread. i hope one of the developers has read it and circulated the main points amongst themselves.

it's a shame there's no developer engagement on these forums.

[Solaris_Wave]

I have pointed the developers to both this thread and my other recent one on weapons DLC, now that a new developer thread has been started. Hopefully, it can be of use to them.

Maybe now that the game is out on PC, is due for consoles, and sales have been positive, Haemimont will now have more free time to refine the game?

Edited September 15, 2023 by Solaris_Wave