Proposal for Weapons DLC

[Solaris_Wave]

I have had a look at the firearms that are in JA3 and I was surprised by the lack of certain weapons. I don't know if any weapons DLC is already planned by Haemimont but I have some suggestions for guns that would, in my view, fit the African setting of using pro-Russian equipment and other weapons often shown in photos.

I know that we have the potential to create our own weapons but it won't be easy to create the 3D models, such as what you see on the weapon modification screen. The quality of the models created by Haemimont are truly excellent. Therefore, it would be great to see officially modelled weapons.

I haven't gone crazy with suggested weapons because you can have lots of guns for the sake of it, many of which in terms of games purposes all behave the same. I have included a few rarer weapons that would be inline with the era and would have a uniqueness to them to make them a worthwhile choice in deciding whether to equip them or not. Also, despite the more simplified and common weapons typical of an African themed nation, there are already guns in the game that you would be less likely to see, such as the Steyr AUG, Benelli M1014, AA-12 and Barrett M82.

My suggestions are as follows:

HANDGUNS:

Colt M1911

Beretta M93R

Glock 17

Glock 21

Makarov

Stechkin

 

SUB-MACHINE GUNS:

Ingram MAC-10 .45 ACP

Sterling

Heckler & Koch UMP .45

FN P90

Skorpion vz. 61

 

BATTLE RIFLES:

Heckler & Koch G3 (or) CETME

SKS

 

MACHINE GUNS:

RPD

RPK

PK

 

SHOTGUNS:

Mossberg M500

 

GRENADES:

RGD-5

 

There could be many other firearms and the ones suggested have not been done so because they are especially favourites of mine (I haven't actually included my favourite firearms). I suggested the M1911 pistol due to its commonality, age and the recent inclusion of .45 ACP calibre weapons, with the Thompson M1 SMG example mod. Including .45 ACP weapons would be a nice addition to the game as the calibre is a good deal more powerful than 9mm Parabellum against human targets, easy to use with suppressors but very slightly less range and penetration to armour. As there are not many SMGs that use the calibre, I included the MAC-10 (the .45 ACP version), which would be a good counterpart to the Uzi, and the UMP .45 which while rare and not really something you would see in Africa, it came in around the same time as the H&K G36, which is in the game.

The Beretta 93R would be a good counterpart to the Glock 18 as it is another select-fire pistol. Unlike the G18's full-auto mode, the 93R is 3-round burst. Less bullets fired but more accurate.

The Makarov was included due to the vast amount of Russian firearms in many parts of Africa. If AKs are present, Makarovs should be as well. So far, JA3 doesn't have many handguns and none of them are Russian. It would need to fire a new calibre but 9mm Makarov is an easy calibre to make in terms of game purposes. It just needs slightly weaker values from 9mm Parabellum.

The Stechkin is a full-auto capable pistol that fires 9mm Makarov. This would be a good alternative to the Glock 18 and 9mm Makarov ammo would be abundant.

I included the Glock 17 as a high capacity, semi-auto only variant of the Glock 18. It would be cheaper and more common. The 3D model would be easy to create as it would just involve removing the fire selector from the model and texture. Likewise, the Glock 21 could use the same model as the G17, as in terms of dimensions it is not much larger to be noticeable in this game. Therefore, just changing its data to fire .45 ACP and hold less cartridges would be sufficient. You have then got yourself a higher capacity M1911 but with less accuracy than that gun.

The Skorpion could be dual-wielded, like the MAC-10 (and Uzi, although the standard size Uzi isn't really for single handed use). It can have a suppressor. Cheap, common and with plenty of available ammo, it would be the Eastern European alternative to the other small SMGs. It’s most common calibre is .32 ACP/7.65mm Browning, which is weaker than 9mm. This would involve creating another calibre but again, you downsize the properties of 9mm Parabellum. There are other models though, such as the vz. 65, that fires 9mm Makarov. Nowhere near as common, but if you really didn't want to go to the trouble of creating too many different calibres to randomly have in the game, having the 9mm Makarov version would be a good compromise.

The FN P90 and Five SeveN would be two of the rare exotics, especially for the time. They would fire the 5.7x28mm calibre, which would once again have to be created. Damage wise it is slightly better than 9mm Parabellum, has more range and accuracy, and is designed to penetrate body armour. In terms of SMGs and handguns, having an armour-piercing pistol calibre would be a good inclusion.

The Heckler & Koch G3 or earlier CETME rifles are very common in Africa. If you have the FN FAL in the game, you should have the G3. It would have plenty of modding options.

The SKS is common but nowhere near as common as the AK-47. While it might seem unnecessary to have, I was thinking that maybe, due to it having a folding bayonet as standard fitting, it could have a quick and close range melee attack.

For the machine guns, again there are currently not enough Russian weapons other than the RPK-74 and if there are AKs, there really should be other inclusions. I was thinking about the RPD, which is still extremely common, especially in third-world nations. It requires its own drum magazines but fires 7.62x39mm, like the AK-47. As an alternative, there is its replacement, the RPK. This is not the same as the RPK-74. In reality, the RPK-74 (and AK-74 and AKS-74U) should really be firing 5.45x39mm, while the RPK fires 7.62x39mm. I don't know why that was changed for the game, unless it was for simplification or due to lack of time. 5.45x39mm weapons would need less Action Points to fire, compared to its larger brother, due to lighter recoil. They would have greater range and be more accurate. Due to the unpredictable nature of 5.45mm, to replicate it in the game, it would cause higher criticals or higher chance of bleeding.

My lone shotgun suggestion is because there are no pump shotguns in the game. Slower to fire than the semi-auto M1014 and Auto-5 shotgun, it would have a higher reliability and require less frequent repair. Much cheaper and can fire all varieties of shotgun ammunition, unlike semi-auto shotguns.

Finally, I included a common Russian anti-personnel frag grenade to coincide with the other Russian equipment. These should be widely found throughout the game, compared to the German WWII Stielhandgranate or 'stick grenade'. Shorter distance throw than the stick grenade but quicker AP cost to throw.

[CersaisAdvocate]

Nice topic. I would love to see the As Val and the Vss Vintorez. In ja2 1.13 I had a night ops Squad armed with these. I had to pay a lot Bobby Rays bills to get the ammo, but damm... They ruled the night!

Aside from that nostalgia if they should bring a DLC dedicated to weapons I would like them to focus on weapons that demand new mechanics or animations. Flamethrower, Katana, under barrel shotgun.

Edited August 30, 2023 by CersaisAdvocate

[Solaris_Wave]

I had thought about an under-barrelled shotgun attachment, like with the M4 Masterkey, but there doesn't seem to be a lot of use for it in the game (from what I have personally seen so far). It was meant for door breaching as opposed to close-in firepower.

I avoided firearms that you wouldn't really expect to see in a poorer African state, bar a few. Most weapons considered 'cool' and even featured in JA2, I left out of my suggestions. Otherwise, I could start suggesting firearms such as the FN F2000, AN-94, Bizon, M60, H&K USP or MK23 SOCOM, SIG 552 Commando and so on. Even civilian hunting rifles for African game or more WWII-era weapons such as the STG44, Lee Enfield and PPSh-41, I omitted. There are other firearms in the game that either cover that purpose already (and you don't want to saturate the choice of weapons) or need new calibres to be added. One of the biggest omissions with JA3 is incorrect calibres for several of the guns. By doing so, it has made certain viable weapon choices more unnecessary and also risked the proposition of creating new calibres. If corners were cut, is it being suggested not to bother?

If and when I mod the game, I will overhaul many of the guns in terms of damage per bullet, calibre used (I will fix the Gewehr 98, MG42, AK-74, AKS-74U, RPK-74, Peacemaker, Anaconda, Desert Eagle and Barrett M82) and Action Point cost. However, I am still currently trying to get my head round how the game is modded. I thought it would be just a case of loading up the built-in Mod Editor and changing a few things. It doesn't seem that simple.

[CersaisAdvocate]

I think a weapons DLC could also be a Bobby Rays DLC. So there would actually be room for things like the FN2000 imho. We do not need a DLC to get 15 AK variants. 

I would like to see the SKS though.

[Solaris_Wave]

I would personally consider the F2000 to be one of those 'exotic' weapons. It never really caught on. That said, if it was going to be in the game, it would be better if it was fully modelled with its bespoke attachments. It had its own optics and grenade launcher attachments.

I didn't suggest 15 different AKs for my suggestions. The game already has the AK-47/AKM, AK-74, RPK-74 and AKS-74U. What should have been done was to give the -74 models their own calibre. Then, with my suggested additions, you would have three different machine guns as support weapons. All three don't have to be included but I pointed out that the RPD is very common, even though it was replaced by the RPK (itself very common). The RPD uses an ammo belt that is fitted into a drum (but isn't a drum mag) and holds about 100 rounds of 7.62x39mm (what the AK-47 uses). The RPK replaced the RPD to be more common with the AK and accepts box magazines and drum mags. Both LMGs are so common that either one could be added. To make it worthwhile though, all the -74 models need the 5.45x39mm calibre. The two calibres do act differently in performance in various ways, so it wouldn't be a case of having lots of the same gun.

Meanwhile, the PK machine gun has more powerful ammunition than the AK-47, RPD and RPK. It is chambered for 7.62x54mmR, a long range cartridge. That cartridge is also what the SVD Dragunov should be using in the game (and not also be capable of firing in burst. Why was that done?).

Edited August 31, 2023 by Solaris_Wave

[CersaisAdvocate]

Yes I really would like some more realism regarding the calibers. I do not understand why they felt the need to simplify it the way they did. If it was ok for JA2 players it should be ok for JA3 players too.

[Solaris_Wave]

These are the guns that are using the wrong calibre and what they should be using:

 

Gewehr 98 is using 7.62x51mm. Should be using 7.92mm Mauser.

MG42 is using 7.62x51mm. It should be using 7.92mm Mauser as well.

Colt Peacemaker is using .44. But .44 what? There are different types of .44 calibre cartridges. Anyway, it should be using .45 Colt as that was the most common.

Colt Anaconda is again using some sort of .44. It should be .44 Magnum.

Desert Eagle is likewise. It can be upgraded to .50 something. It should be using .50 Action Express.

Barrett M82 is using apparently the same .50 as whatever the Desert Eagle can be upgraded to. The .50 calibre cartridge that the DE uses is most definitely not what the M82 uses. That should be using the much longer and more powerful .50 BMG.

The SVD Dragunov is using 7.62x39mm but should be using 7.62x54mmR.

The AK-74, AKS-74U and RPK-74 are using 7.62x39mm and should be using 5.45x39mm.

 

Now some could say, "Who cares?" Apart from the fact that I do and so do many others, if it wasn't important, then why bother having different calibres for any of the guns? Why not have them all use the same types? In my view, you either do it completely or don't do it at all.

Edited September 1, 2023 by Solaris_Wave

[5Cents]

17 hours ago, Solaris_Wave said:

These are the guns that are using the wrong calibre and what they should be using:

 

Gewehr 98 is using 7.62x51mm. Should be using 7.92mm Mauser.

MG42 is using 7.62x51mm. It should be using 7.92mm Mauser as well.

Colt Peacemaker is using .44. But .44 what? There are different types of .44 calibre cartridges. Anyway, it should be using .45 Colt as that was the most common.

Colt Anaconda is again using some sort of .44. It should be .44 Magnum.

Desert Eagle is likewise. It can be upgraded to .50 something. It should be using .50 Action Express.

Barrett M82 is using apparently the same .50 as whatever the Desert Eagle can be upgraded to. The .50 calibre cartridge that the DE uses is most definitely not what the M82 uses. That should be using the much longer and more powerful .50 BMG.

The SVD Dragunov is using 7.62x39mm but should be using 7.62x54mmR.

The AK-74, AKS-74U and RPK-74 are using 7.62x39mm and should be using 5.45x39mm.

 

Now some could say, "Who cares?" Apart from the fact that I do and so do many others, if it wasn't important, then why bother having different calibres for any of the guns? Why not have them all use the same types? In my view, you either do it completely or don't do it at all.

The same for me..

The incomprehensible weapon design of JA3 seems like an absolute indifference of devs for weapontopics or even worse idleness. Maybe smbd. decided there is no time, money or brain, to do it right, or they just didnt care and thought no one else would be interested in that topic, to have better  and more realistic feeling-weaponbalance,...we will never find out.

I think most JA3 players arent that keen in weapons or/and arent interested in, but as long youve got a glue, working with weapons f.e., or even only do it as an hobby, youre just wondering about some really obvious weirdness, concerning JA3 weapons.

The overall weapon appearence, like they are in the the game, really turned me off and was the reason i played JA3 only one time and that left it since then.

Maybe i'll play it again in a more distant future, after i had the time, to change and correct the whole weird things you already wrote about.

Edited September 2, 2023 by 5Cents

[Solaris_Wave]

21 minutes ago, 5Cents said:

The overall weapon appearence, like they are in the the game, really turned me off and was the reason i played JA3 only one time and that left it since then.

What did you not like about the weapon appearance? Do you mean the 3D models in the weapon modding and attachments screen? I thought that the models were very well made. That said, some of the modifications were rather silly. I would have changed the properties of the Red Dot sights a little, given some guns bipods as standard, removed some of the modding options (the long barrel for the MP5 is silly, altering the expensive and already feature-ready PSG1 with different stocks and so on, doesn't make sense) and made a few other changes.

I have accepted the game's use of scrap to make attachments, even though being able to actually buy and re-use attachments would have been more realistic. I also enjoyed ordering shipments of weapons and equipment in JA2. Incorrect calibres, incorrect damage numbers and other things like the SVD Dragunov firing in automatic really makes me wonder why that was done. I can only think it was done for game balance, simplicity and lack of time.

Some of the weapons included in the game, at the expense of others, seems odd. Why is the Colt Peacemaker in there but not the Heckler & Koch G3? The latter is more likely to be in Africa. Why no M1911, a pistol as ubiquitous as the Browning Hi-Power? My only explanation for the Peacemaker is that the merc, Tex is supposed to be proficient in old revolvers. So he could continue using a Peacemaker throughout the game, Haemimont chose to make the gun appear often and give it common ammo, which works with other guns. The M1911 would have been the correct choice for some of the other American mercs.

Edited September 2, 2023 by Solaris_Wave

[CersaisAdvocate]

If you could mod the game so that you get components back when you replace an attachment you could use specific components for the attachments. You could then rebuild the JA2 system.

I like JA3 but I think the developers did create some problems. In JA2 I could have all the ammo you can imagine lying around in Drassen and still could have intense situations where on merc throwes a clip to another to keep his gun shooting.

[5Cents]

3 hours ago, Solaris_Wave said:

What did you not like about the weapon appearance? Do you mean the 3D models in the weapon modding and attachments screen? I thought that the models were very well made. That said, some of the modifications were rather silly. I would have changed the properties of the Red Dot sights a little, given some guns bipods as standard, removed some of the modding options (the long barrel for the MP5 is silly, altering the expensive and already feature-ready PSG1 with different stocks and so on, doesn't make sense) and made a few other changes.

I have accepted the game's use of scrap to make attachments, even though being able to actually buy and re-use attachments would have been more realistic. I also enjoyed ordering shipments of weapons and equipment in JA2. Incorrect calibres, incorrect damage numbers and other things like the SVD Dragunov firing in automatic really makes me wonder why that was done. I can only think it was done for game balance, simplicity and lack of time.

Some of the weapons included in the game, at the expense of others, seems odd. Why is the Colt Peacemaker in there but not the Heckler & Koch G3? The latter is more likely to be in Africa. Why no M1911, a pistol as ubiquitous as the Browning Hi-Power? My only explanation for the Peacemaker is that the merc, Tex is supposed to be proficient in old revolvers. So he could continue using a Peacemaker throughout the game, Haemimont chose to make the gun appear often and give it common ammo, which works with other guns. The M1911 would have been the correct choice for some of the other American mercs.

Misunderstanding.

Im fine with the appearence and the models are almost perfectly fine for me. They are reasonable and well made. For example, attachments are way better. From the looking the JA3 weapons resemble much more the original weapons than JA2.
The have done it well.

I meant the inner values, that dont make any sense in my modest opinion (shot a lot of infantry-weapons by myself) and i found JA2 weapon values more appropriate fitting a semirealism/arcade game-setting).
Apart from that, wrong calibers, you already mentioned above and other fantasy things.

Its only a small factor, i know. But for me it seems like a weak and listless implementation and also an unnecessary fault (even for balancing reasons) because I think, actually JA3 is not that bad and has a good foundation.

[5Cents]

I mean, it is just not possible to create a real lifelike weapon model for a game and i dont think, it will ever be. There are too many different factors which are involved, target and effects. F.e. a badbad guy could survive an 7.62 and the other one could die of a well placed single .22 bullet or a shrapnel in his toe, f.e, true story.

But nobody asked for that kind of impossible realism, me neither.

The minimum and easiest way, you can do, in trying represent weapons, is the minimum size, rough, average values and milspecs. But here, i dont see coherence in JA3 and still wondering why they have done such an unnecessary complication. Particularly if you dont know something better, would make it a lot more easier, to just orientate in real guns, than create an own odd fantasy-value system.

So its an given away point for the game.

Edited September 2, 2023 by 5Cents

[Solaris_Wave]

6 hours ago, 5Cents said:

I mean, it is just not possible to create a real lifelike weapon model for a game and i dont think, it will ever be. There are too many different factors which are involved, target and effects. F.e. a badbad guy could survive an 7.62 and the other one could die of a well placed single .22 bullet or a shrapnel in his toe, f.e, true story.

But nobody asked for that kind of impossible realism, me neither.

The minimum and easiest way, you can do, in trying represent weapons, is the minimum size, rough, average values and milspecs. But here, i dont see coherence in JA3 and still wondering why they have done such an unnecessary complication. Particularly if you dont know something better, would make it a lot more easier, to just orientate in real guns, than create an own odd fantasy-value system.

So its an given away point for the game.

Some games have actually done pretty well to simulate wound ballistics and material penetration. However, they are lost in the sea of games that usually just give the enemy a number of hit points and two hit zones (the entire body and the head). Shoot the enemy in the body and they carry on as normal, right up to the point their health hits 0. Shoot them in the head and they die instantly from any gun and any bullet. Hence people thinking that 'clicking heads' is somehow tactical and realistic.

I think that, to make calibres translate well into computer games, you have to create enough different parameters to begin with. Which isn't really that hard, just more time consuming. You set an average velocity of a calibre, its damage against human tissue, animal tissue if appropriate, damage against body armour and damage against different types of wall and object material. For damage against human tissue, you create as many different body hit zones as possible and then the various damage values to reduce hit points, chance of a critical hit and then a percentage chance of a single shot incapacitation. The latter point would mean that all bullets could potentially drop an enemy in one hit but more powerful bullets would have a higher chance. That way, you don't have to shoot a bad guy 8 times with a .380 Auto before they die. One of those 'weaker' bullets might get a knock out hit before all the hit points of an enemy is reduced to 0. That would simulate hitting a vital organ.

Some bullets are better against animals than others, some are better against body armour and some are better going through internal walls. Something like a .50BMG round will blow through most things but smaller bullets aren't always inferior at punching through or doing damage than larger bullets.

Once those calibres are set up, you then work each gun around those calibres. You create parameters for a gun's weight (the heavier it is, the slower to aim but better control of recoil), its length (how manoeuvrable it is), its barrel length (again, manoeuvrability but also range, accuracy and effect on bullet velocity and damage), its fire modes and rate of fire (how many bullets it can fire with a short press of the trigger, how much recoil that creates, how quick it empties a magazine). It all sounds like excess busy work, but if you can plan out what categories to have and then program them all in, it doesn't take a lot of work to see how every calibre and gun fits into a points system.

[LoboNocturno]

I think especially after the console release there will be coming a few DLC`s "new mercs, new outfits (skins) for already existing mercs, new enemy types (also skins, the Legion should look just like in the console release video imo), surely also new weapons.

[Solaris_Wave]

Is the console release definitely being worked on? Not that I will buying it, as I am a PC gamer again, that might explain why Haemimont are relatively quiet at the moment.

[D13]

@Solaris_Wave Yes, it already has Xbox and Playstation entries, and there's this "Console Announcement Trailer":

 

[Starwalker]

My guess is that it is as it was with JA2: The game designers did not have enough time to do enough research before management wanted the game on the shelves. JA2 also had only a few guns and the values on some did not make sense, compared to other in-game guns. A lot of this was corrected by 1.13, which also added a lot of guns, among other things.

Thus a DLC with new guns would be nice. Maybe someone could make a poll to see which guns are the most wanted by the community?

[Solaris_Wave]

2 hours ago, Starwalker said:

My guess is that it is as it was with JA2: The game designers did not have enough time to do enough research before management wanted the game on the shelves. JA2 also had only a few guns and the values on some did not make sense, compared to other in-game guns. A lot of this was corrected by 1.13, which also added a lot of guns, among other things.

Thus a DLC with new guns would be nice. Maybe someone could make a poll to see which guns are the most wanted by the community?

That would be a good idea, with the poll. If you haven't already done so, check out my thread on Weapons DLC. I think it would be better to keep things fairly authentic to the country and within the timeline. Therefore, nothing too fancy. You can also risk saturating the weapons list with too many guns that, from game purposes, behave identical. A poll might rein things in a bit with some of them. Seeing as the timeline is 2001, there is still plenty of room for a varied weapon list that behaves differently enough (and still remaining realistic).

[Hjalfnar_HGV]

I would recommend to add another MG: the MG3. Yeah yeah, it is basically the MG42 but it would be possible to give it some attachments (officially optics, stock, however I have even seen field mods for a carry handle, laser/UV dot and forward grip) if they add the old German ammunition, this gun would instead be using 7.62NATO. Actually surprised nobody has made a mod for it yet, after all it would be super simple since the gun is already in the game, more or less.

[Solaris_Wave]

I was wondering why, if Haemimont didn't create 7.92mm Mauser ammunition, they didn't just rename the MG42 to the MG3 and work from there. I suppose the MG42's presence is more to do with the leftover German WWII weapons in Grand Chien. While thinking about it, the Gewehr 98 should really have been the shorter Kar98K, if we are talking leftover WWII German rifles.