Picking up injured

[Acid]

Maybe this has been mentioned somewhere but I haven't seen it, will we be able to pick up our downed merc's and carry them to safety? 

same as with the enemy, will they heal their wounded and pick them up? could make for some interesting gameplay.

[Solaris_Wave]

I would definitely like to see that in JA3. For your mercs, I would consider it necessary. If you are in a firefight, you might want to get that fallen merc to a safer spot to carry out aid. Then after that (or instead of), try to carry them off the edge of the map.

For the enemy, it would certainly add to making them feel more human, instead of just being AI 'bots'.

Edited May 2, 2023 by Solaris_Wave

[Hendrix]

Yeah! Come on Haemimont, Wages of War had this back in '96! You want to get beaten by a 27 year old game? 😁

As @Acid and @Solaris_Wave wrote. It would create an amazing atmosphere if the enemies would sometimes try to carry their wounded to safety and administer first aid.

[Solaris_Wave]

I honestly don't know why this hasn't been in more games of this genre. There have been two situations that I have always remembered, that could have gone a lot better if you were able to carry the wounded.

When I played the original X-COM back in the 90s, there was a situation at a Terror Site where I had a man down. This was during one of my first play-throughs and I assumed that you could carry the wounded. He had been incapacitated in a park area and I sent two soldiers over to him. I got one soldier to collect his fallen weapons and equipment while the other provided cover. I was then looking in vain to see how I could carry him with the second soldier. The option wasn't there so I had to get one soldier to use their medikit on the incapacitated soldier while exposed out in the open and two enemies were firing back. It didn't help that the first soldier then had to waste time dropping all the kit they had picked up, so that the now revived soldier was able to collect his gear.

I couldn't see it in the manual about carrying the wounded but seeing as the designers previously made Laser Squad, where you could pick up fallen or dead soldiers (but there was never really a need to do so, due to lack of First Aid options), I figured that X-COM would be the same.

 

For JA2, it was actually quite disheartening. It was my first play-through of this game as well. It was near the beginning of the game, in an otherwise open jungle area. My mercs were spread out and not that well equipped due it being near the beginning. Nails was by himself and was hit, causing him to start bleeding. He didn't have First Aid on him. I tried getting him out of there but he was shot again and he collapsed. I tried to get another merc (I can't remember who she was but it might have been Buns) over to him but she was pinned down until my mercs managed to kill the enemy that was preventing her from doing so. That took two turns before I could get her to run over to where Nails had fallen. She patched him up and stopped the bleeding but his health was very low. She stayed by him because I found out I could not carry him. This didn't help at all because there were two enemies now that were shooting at her, one being visible and another hidden from sight but able to fire.

My mercs were slowly finishing off the enemies and moving up but at the same time there was still that one enemy that was shooting but unable to be spotted. I didn't want to move Buns(?) that was staying with Nails, who was still unconscious, because I didn't want her to get shot as well. At this point, that hidden enemy decided to move up and fire at Buns. He missed but the bullet hit Nails, causing another wound and for him to die. Buns couldn't carry him to a safer spot and him lying there, almost dead for multiple turns, only to be finished off near the end of the battle was a sad ending.

[Image Miroir]

Picking up is definitely a plus as it opens the way to other possibilities and mission (like enemy capture).

Now if they're no time to exploit "picking up" I see no reason to add so burden to development team.

[WILDFIRE]

@Acid: Great idea! Also for rescue missions where you have to protect your team members and to fight the enemies at the same time. So maybe some missions could have time limits where you have to bring your team to the helicopter/boat or they will bleed to death.

[Lunokhod]

19 hours ago, Acid said:

Maybe this has been mentioned somewhere but I haven't seen it, will we be able to pick up our downed merc's and carry them to safety?

I thought about this too, but nobody will do it. Bro they can only copy/paste 24 years old ja2 in 3d with cartoon style and xcom camera. Thats what its all about. There won't be any cool new stuff. Very lowskilled developers team. Its not ja3... its ja2:3d...

[Image Miroir]

So far, the game looks good and interesting.

There are a lot of possible options and improvements, but they can arrive later in a DLC or a JA4. What we need is a decent game with a supportive community, and enough of sales to fuel more Jagged Alliance sequels.

[Stuurminator]

21 hours ago, Hendrix said:

It would create an amazing atmosphere if the enemies would sometimes try to carry their wounded to safety and administer first aid.

It would affect the atmosphere for sure, but perhaps not for the better.

There's a reason tactical combat games typically don't depict enemies begging for their lives or screaming in agony or calling out for their mothers when mortally wounded, even though these things may be realistic. You don't want players to feel sympathy or pity for the enemy when you're expected to slaughter hundreds of them over the course of the game. Seeing enemies desperately try to save the lives of their wounded comrades, and being incentivized to gun them down in the process, is probably not the gameplay a lot of players are looking for.

There's also the fact that, in Jagged Alliance, first aid can save a merc's life but usually doesn't get them back in the fight, due to the penalties they suffer even after being bandaged. This is worth in the long run for the player, but since you're not expected to leave any survivors among the enemies, this means first aid on the enemy's part is just a waste of time.

14 hours ago, Solaris_Wave said:

I honestly don't know why this hasn't been in more games of this genre. There have been two situations that I have always remembered, that could have gone a lot better if you were able to carry the wounded.

Your stories sound a little strange to me. In the first XCOM, you absolutely could pick up unconscious soldiers. Their bodies were considered objects an appeared on the inventory screen. In Jagged Alliance 2, no one remains unconscious after being bandaged up, unless by "unconscious" you mean Nails's energy was completely depleted, and even then I wouldn't expect it to remain so for several turns.

9 hours ago, WILDFIRE said:

@Acid: Great idea! Also for rescue missions where you have to protect your team members and to fight the enemies at the same time. So maybe some missions could have time limits where you have to bring your team to the helicopter/boat or they will bleed to death.

I am 100% against this idea.

If a mercenary is badly wounded in the course of gameplay and has to be carried to safety? Fine, that's great. If a quest involves an NPC being wounded, or unconscious, or missing a leg, or whatever, and has to be carried to safety? Fine, also great. Both of these cases occurred in X-COM 2 (the new one) and were fine.

What I don't want is to load into a map and be told "oh no, Mouse tripped over a rock and is now dying, you better carry her to this waypoint in five turns or she'll bleed to death!" That's bullshit and not what Jagged Alliance is about.

[WILDFIRE]

@Stuurminator: As I mentioned I was talking about rescue missions where you have to protect your team or a VIP character. I think there could be some great intensive missions where you could loose an important character or merc if you can not save him within the time limit. Also maybe randomly one of your mercs gets captured and you have to rescue him. No one is talking about that you have to save a specific merc all the time in every combat situation.

[Hendrix]

1 hour ago, Stuurminator said:

It would affect the atmosphere for sure, but perhaps not for the better.

There's a reason tactical combat games typically don't depict enemies begging for their lives or screaming in agony or calling out for their mothers when mortally wounded, even though these things may be realistic. You don't want players to feel sympathy or pity for the enemy when you're expected to slaughter hundreds of them over the course of the game. Seeing enemies desperately try to save the lives of their wounded comrades, and being incentivized to gun them down in the process, is probably not the gameplay a lot of players are looking for.

There's also the fact that, in Jagged Alliance, first aid can save a merc's life but usually doesn't get them back in the fight, due to the penalties they suffer even after being bandaged. This is worth in the long run for the player, but since you're not expected to leave any survivors among the enemies, this means first aid on the enemy's part is just a waste of time.

Personally I think it could really add a layer to combat. Are you ruthless and kill every enemy, then you force them to fight harder against you and never give up. They won't show any pardon for one of your own downed mercs. On the other hand if you show mercy to downed enemies, maybe enemies could decide to give up instead when a fight is going badly for them.

[Grim]

Carrying downed mercs to cover would be a great addition indeed.👍

[Stuurminator]

4 hours ago, WILDFIRE said:

@Stuurminator: As I mentioned I was talking about rescue missions where you have to protect your team or a VIP character. I think there could be some great intensive missions where you could loose an important character or merc if you can not save him within the time limit. Also maybe randomly one of your mercs gets captured and you have to rescue him. No one is talking about that you have to save a specific merc all the time in every combat situation.

Maybe you should explain what you mean by "missions". JA doesn't have multiple "missions" except for in Deadly Games. Do you mean an optional quest?

In any case, the point is, I don't want my mercs to randomly be injured or captured. That's not Jagged Alliance's kind of gameplay. If a quest involves us evacuating an NPC that's already wounded when we show up, that's fine, but I expect the game to play fair when it comes to my mercs.

[Solaris_Wave]

10 hours ago, Stuurminator said:

Your stories sound a little strange to me. In the first XCOM, you absolutely could pick up unconscious soldiers. Their bodies were considered objects an appeared on the inventory screen. In Jagged Alliance 2, no one remains unconscious after being bandaged up, unless by "unconscious" you mean Nails's energy was completely depleted, and even then I wouldn't expect it to remain so for several turns.

I definitely couldn't pick up the fallen soldier in original X-COM. Maybe you played a patched version whereas (at the time) I did not.

For JA2, it was a long time ago so I could have got things mixed up a little in my description of that experience. It may have even been a case of Nails getting hit again while Buns (if it was her) was trying to patch him up. I just remember how it would have been easier if he could have been carried to a safer spot and being unable to keep him alive long enough.

Edited May 4, 2023 by Solaris_Wave

[WILDFIRE]

@Stuurminator: I talk about optional quests. I think there are many possibilities to create intensive rescue missions with or without time limits.