Burst/Auto fire balance - A different root cause

[Solaris_Wave]

5 hours ago, Xeth Nyrrow said:

JA2 had a chance to dodge so maybe they added it already. Personally I don't like this and would prefer making melee attacks be expensive AP wise but deadly. Stabbing with a knife should be quick but less lethal unless you hit the head. Swinging a sword or other bigr melee weapon should take a lot of AP since it's much slower than pulling a trigger but be very damaging. This all assumes getting in melee range to a target is difficult which is currently quite in doubt.

The only thing I am wondering about is if the cost in action points to perform a melee is so high, that by the time your merc has got within one space of the enemy to perform a melee hit, would that merc have run out of action points? Cue the enemy turn and the bad guy turns round, sees your merc crouched next to him, kills him and raises the alarm. Cue your turn again, a load of swearing and reaching for the Quick Load key.

Clearly a melee attack would take up considerable action points and the battle would be deadly (only one person is going to survive) but I can guess that running out of action points could be a recurring and frustrating issue. Your merc would have to level up a lot to gain more action points and also, would have to really risk the approach towards one enemy, maybe over a number of turns.

Melee should always be tense and risky, with the outcome being deadly for either combatant. I just don't know if a high AP cost will make it more frustrating than just difficult.

[Godzilla]

There are many factors to consider regarding melee like the fact that melee is already very difficult because it requires somebody to be in spend a lot of AP getting close and leaves the merc very vulnerable to attack if they dont finish of the opponent.

[Xeth Nyrrow]

It's really tough I think to get melee right because it's quite unrealistic in the vast majority of situations the game will put you in. So it has to be fun and rewarding but not too strong all while being somewhat believable. They already admitted on stream it's probably too strong and might get nerfed. My concern is if those nerfs which might be higher AP costs, damage adjustments, or increased target dodging will make melee nearly useless while ignoring the potential root cause of a lack of interrupts? I hope I'm wrong but time will tell.

[Godzilla]

15 minutes ago, Xeth Nyrrow said:

It's really tough I think to get melee right because it's quite unrealistic in the vast majority of situations the game will put you in. So it has to be fun and rewarding but not too strong all while being somewhat believable. They already admitted on stream it's probably too strong and might get nerfed. My concern is if those nerfs which might be higher AP costs, damage adjustments, or increased target dodging will make melee nearly useless while ignoring the potential root cause of a lack of interrupts? I hope I'm wrong but time will tell.

Melee isnt supposed to be a mainstream combat type, its supposed to be niche or used in a small percentage of encounters when you suddenly end up in very close proximity to somebody.

It shouldnt bevseen as a viable alternative, but if somebody has very high stealth and has OP stats to that character you can see how stealth melee attacks could work.

The idea that all weapon and combat types should be equal or equally viable in all types of combat scenarios is a vast mistake.

Edited May 16, 2023 by Godzilla

[DonBilbo]

It’s a game after all and melee combat has to work as a game mechanic. You can try to come from a realistic stand point and try to derive from that, but I think you have to make more concessions for melee to work as a game mechanic (compared to shooting), because attacking a gun wielding opponent with a melee in reality could get you killed really quick if you can’t surprise him. If you get spotted it’s a death sentence. Do you want to risk your mercs life every time you try to go melee? This is also the reason that you don’t get incapacitated if hit by one bullet and can get healed up again easily. That’s also a game compromise and not realistic, but easier to balance.

We should grant them the artistic license to make melee work as a game mechanic so it’s a useable and balanced risk reward without getting you killed if the coin toss is not in your favor. IMHO you have to derive further from reality to make melee work in game which is ok for me because it shouldn’t be useless but also not OP. 

[Godzilla]

6 hours ago, DonBilbo said:

It’s a game after all and melee combat has to work as a game mechanic. You can try to come from a realistic stand point and try to derive from that, but I think you have to make more concessions for melee to work as a game mechanic (compared to shooting), because attacking a gun wielding opponent with a melee in reality could get you killed really quick if you can’t surprise him. If you get spotted it’s a death sentence. Do you want to risk your mercs life every time you try to go melee? This is also the reason that you don’t get incapacitated if hit by one bullet and can get healed up again easily. That’s also a game compromise and not realistic, but easier to balance.

We should grant them the artistic license to make melee work as a game mechanic so it’s a useable and balanced risk reward without getting you killed if the coin toss is not in your favor. IMHO you have to derive further from reality to make melee work in game which is ok for me because it shouldn’t be useless but also not OP. 

It wont get you killed, you just have to be really good at melee. Again the idea that every playstyle must be equally viable is very incorrect.

Every merc I had ended up using ARs and similar real guns. If you use niche weapon types you accept the greater difficulty that comes with it.

Edited May 16, 2023 by Godzilla

[Jaywalker]

The correct way to handle balistics would have been the way Phoenix Point did it: there is no CTH, because there is no CTH calculation.
In Phoenix Point, when you fire your weapon, you fire it randomly within a certain cone that represents the potential spread resulting from the accuracy of the weapon being used and the accuracy of the shooter.
Weapons of different classes have different damage values, and there isn't a single/auto setting, if you fire an AR or SMG, it's a burst of 4-6 shots, if you fire a rifle or a handgun it's 1 shot.
The damage model is also designed to support this design, and you can even add aiming levels via modding.