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Outdoors 'n' stuff


Hendrix
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@GODSPEED

Figured we could have an outdoor topic aswell, so we don't overwhelm the gun topic with too much non-gun related stuff. 😂

 

Finally the first day of moose hunting!

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A calm morning with a fantastic sunrise. It's really something (atleast for me) to just sitt there for a few hours, sipping on some coffe, watching the black grouses, buzzards and ravens fly by and just enjoying being outside.

Caught a glimpse of a big moose bull with a nice set of antlers aswell. However we do not shot large bull's before october (after mating season) and I didn't have a clean shot either. But it is always fun to atleast see animals.

 

On a side note me and the wife went hiking last weekend to the high coast area near were we live. Cooked some lunch on the gas stove and enjoyed the view.

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 9/3/2022 at 4:11 AM, Hendrix said:

@GODSPEED

Figured we could have an outdoor topic aswell, so we don't overwhelm the gun topic with too much non-gun related stuff. 😂

Glad one of us has a head on their shoulders!! I'm pretty good at hijacking topics with unrelated stuff.



Those photos are friggin'awesome!! 🤩

I've gotta give it to you, you have a good eye for composition.

[Unrelated to photos]
You being a hunter and all, I figured you'd enjoy photography for the simple reason that many techniques for breathing and steady aim are as useful in shooting as they are in photography. Especially when we deal with slightly darker settings and especially long zooms for bird photography (or anything with long zooms). It's so easy to get crappy shots because of our normal breathing and simply "shaky" hands. Also for macro photography, which I've been practising a little.


A few shots of my recent excursion in the woods.

I always think that you don't need to be a "good" photographer when capturing nature... nature on it's own is already art.

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  • 1 month later...

Those are wonderful photos you have taken! I'm not into Autumn as a season because where I live, nothing turns a golden or reddish colour here. The leaves just turn yellow, die and fall to the ground as it gets more and more windy and rainy.

I should imagine it looks great where you are, when Spring arrives. The photos you took of late Summer were very nice.

Edited by Solaris_Wave
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On 11/10/2022 at 1:58 AM, GODSPEED said:

Went camping a month ago. Beautiful time of year! Really love Autumn.

How is hunting coming along?

Awesome pictures @GODSPEED! Especially the last two!

 

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The wife and me went for a short day-hike in early October to a nearby hill top. I love to cook and eat outside! 😁

Yeah, September and October (were I live) can present wonderful days indeed, and not only from a huntering perspective 😂.

The hunting has been slow however, there were few animals in the area during September and we had some bad luck in October were we just didn't get chanses that were good enough. For instance I had a small moose bull about 100 meters away from me but he had his back turned against me so there was just no angle for me to get a good shot.

We've got about half the amount we "normally" do. But that's a part of it, there's never a guarantee. But we still got time to hunt so hopefully a few more kilos of meat will end up in the freezer.

 

On 11/10/2022 at 7:38 AM, Solaris_Wave said:

I'm not into Autumn as a season because where I live, nothing turns a golden or reddish colour here. The leaves just turn yellow, die and fall to the ground as it gets more and more windy and rainy.

Yeah that does not sound like fun, November's a bad month here. Cold, dark and lots of rain and wind! It is hard to get any energy because the sun is not up yet when you go to work in the morning and it has already set before you get home. It gets much better once the snow comes and brighten things up.

Overall I really enjoy living in an area were there is 4 distinct season though.

Were do you live @Solaris_Wave?

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I live in the South-East of England and in a large town so much of it is built up. There is a really nice park here however, with lots of paths and several lakes. You get to see wildlife every so often such as deer and rabbits. It is different to where I grew up though, in another county (county, not country), where there is lots of woodland to go for walks. I lived in a village for many years, so even though the county is right next to the one I am living in now, it was more rural.

That is a fantastic view in the photo you have taken!

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On 11/12/2022 at 6:40 PM, Solaris_Wave said:

That is a fantastic view in the photo you have taken!

Thanks, I live at the very edge of an area called The High Coast. The area has dozens of hill tops perfect for short day hikes. It is one of Swedens most popular hiking areas.

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  • 1 month later...

@Hendrix
I finally followed your advice about hunting clothes 😁

I've wanted a good comfy and warm jacket to do photography in winter; which means not moving that much in snowy, damp, windy and cold temperatures.

Got a "cheap" (not a high-cost brand) winter jacket with the RealTree Winter camo.. because I've wanted some snow-themed camo for a VERY long time.

I like it more than my military jackets. Useful large cargo pockets with magnetic closure. Waterproof material, very large zippers under the arms for keeping cool when I hike. Nice amount of outer pockets and hand-warmer area behind the cargo pockets. Inner breast pockets for things I want to keep warm (camera batteries for example, cellphone). Also, a very quiet soft material. Removable hood and slits to help your back breathe but keep the water out.

I seriously appreciate you giving me your opinion about military clothing vs hunting clothes. I understand what you meant about comfort and more useful features. 🍻 It may not have the extreme ruggedness military clothing has, but I'm not that hard on my stuff anyways and have kept cheaper jackets in great shape for years.


So, I've been looking at many different hunting clothes (I find it fitting for photography in nature).. and was wondering if you have an opinion about camouflage, I've been seeing realtree, mossy oak, and a few others. Do you think it really makes a difference? (I've been starting to try my hand at bird photography, wonder how "effective" hunting camouflage really is).

You have a favourite?

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@GODSPEED Nice jacket! Happy to hear my advice to check out hunting clothes worked out for you! 🍻

Sounds and looks like a good choice! That pattern has been in use for a long time around here, both the winter and forest style. My own experience is that winter camo should not have to many coloured areas. I got one winter camo set that is just to aggressive to be of any use.

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It is just a cover set to wear above your normal clothes. A few years ago I bought a "real" function set like the one below and I chose a less colourful one. 

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The set I own is not insulated as the one in the picture above but the pattern is the same.

My buddy use a set in this pattern that works very well.

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As for my opinion on camo, I think we humans over emphasis on the importance because of our own predisposition to vision. Most stuff works as long as it is nothing to crazy. Just try to chose clothes with about the same colour palette as the area you are going into. My own set is in a kind of greenbrown-ish colour.

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The one on the picture above is a new model of the jacket I use but the colour looks to be about the same.

As long as you are staying quiet and still and try to find a spot next to a tree or rock so you can stay in it's shadow, most animals will not notice you easily. Coughing will most likly reveal you to every animal in the vicinity. Having a small fire going can help to hide your scent.

 

The efficiency of camo patterns varies alot depending on the area you are in, what works good in one area might not fit in another one. Our human vision is also an enemy because what we might think works, animals might catch on quickly to. So either ask hunters bird/animal watchers etc. in the same area what camo they use or a nearby hunting-store might know what works.

The only advice I really can give you to depend upon is that as soon as you start moving it does not really matter, many animals are very attuned and reacts with flight to movement. Try to move slow and keep low and to shadows, steping on twigs is a big no no (sadly sometimes you just fuck up). Oh and do not forget to cover your face and hands aswell. If you really really need to not be seen by an animal, you might consider to get a camo net of some kind to cover your spot.

Sorry for a very incoherent post, been writing it on and of on my phone. 

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Those camo patterns in the second and third images are a lot better. Just enough to break up your profile so you are not one solid block of colour but not so much that it defeats the object of ‘blending in’.

Out of curiosity, have you ever taken photos, or had a friend take photos, of you wearing those different camo patterns to see how they blend in with a snow covered woodland? How obvious would you be in the distance if wearing the clothing in the first image?

Also, it is interesting to see a lack of velcro, or so it appears. There are pros and cons to using velcro pockets and I know it was some time ago when velcro was being phased out of United States BDUs (to be possibly replaced at some point by ‘silent velcro’) but I can imagine the scenario of creeping up on an animal with superior hearing, only for them to run away as soon as they hear that RRRRIIIIIIIIIIIP as you attempt to get something out of your pocket, maybe with birds taking flight for added effect. Either that, or the animal is of the angry variety and is now charging towards you.

 

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I did not have any photos specifically taken for that reason, but here are a few others that to atleast some degree serves the purpose. We are going to hunt again in late January - mid February so I will try to remeber to take a few photos then.

First 3 photos are of me and the camo set I use today. First photo is just me skiing, the 2 others are from 2 different hunts on different years.

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In the photo below the set was new and had a kind of blue-ish shine to it, so the set needed to be used and get a little dirty to serve its purpose.

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Next photo is of me wearing my old set, in this very circumstance it worked well because there was so little snow that winter, we did not even use skis or snowshoes. Sadly my backpack covers most of me but notice how well the set blends together with the rock in front of my right leg. Again during a normal winter with a more snowy landscape the set is just to aggressive.

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Last two photos are of my buddy, I would say he blends in nicely.

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My conclusion is that as long as you are in the wooded areas between the trees, most things work, but for the type of hunting we are doing here were you need to cross open areas the old set I have becomes to visible and it is difficult to get with in range of the birds.

 

Velcro is a big no no! Only parts of my sets that have them are at the end of the legs and arms to close of the openings and then you never touch it during the rest of the hunt. Most modern sets have zippers that are supposed to be silent or non aggressive sounding but even then I try to open them very carefully. "Swishy" sounding clothes are also bad. Funny enough is that most animals does not react alot to the actual sound of gunshots. 

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I can definitely see what you mean about that camo pattern being too busy. It looks as if it would only be ideal for very specific circumstances (just the right terrain position, just the right amount of trees and branches, and just the right amount of sunlight) and too complex almost every other time. Maybe that kind of pattern isn't so bad if you were in a tree line and you were some distance from anybody who was looking out for danger.

Meanwhile, those other patterns allow for more diversity in where you are and what the environment is looking like.

Thank you for posting them!

Edited by Solaris_Wave
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Yeah, no camo will ever be perfect for every circumstance. Therfore I would not advise people to get things that are to crazy, no matter how cool they look. I would guess that as long as you wear anything decent, staying low and in shadows you will be hard to spot from 50 meters. Hell, I had a moose come as close as 10 meters once just by staying perfectly still. Course the animal did not get my scent and mooses has very bad sight. Another time one of the other hunters dog barked at and scared a fox roughly 300 meters away from me. The fox came running through the bushes and passed were I was sitting so close I could almost touch it. I have lost count on the times I had capercaillie and black grouse either passed me within 30 meters and/or perched in trees within close distance. I am not braging here, just making examples how important it is to just choose a decent spot, stay still, be quite and be patient. You will likly spend many hours not seeing anything at all. I definitely lost count of the amount of days I haven't seen anything at all! 😂

I also advice to bring food, snacks, fruit, water, warm drink etc. for what is necessary for the duration. Preferably in a way were you don't make alot of noise bringing ut out of your backpack, so no plastic bags for example, use a container of some kind instead.

My experience is once you get hungry or become bored of nothing happening, some nutrition brings your spirit back up again for another hour or two.

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Some of those camo patterns give the impression that they are what the manufacturers expect civilians to believe are military grade designs. Either that or ‘tacticool’. Then again, when you see camo patterns in pink, red and orange, it makes me wonder what those are for, other than fashion. Even if pink can blend in with the horizon, the pink tone that is chosen, along with the added blacks just gives it a ‘tactical casual bedroom’ look.

Reading your comments shows just how patient you need to be and how patient snipers have to be, all to get that right opportunity to take the shot. When I read your second paragraph about needing food and drink, I humorously envisioned a sniper, decked out in a ghillie suit, lying motionless, totally dedicated to the kill…while his butlers stuck out like a neon sign, walking back and forth with noisy silverware containing his full course meal and beverages.

Then again, this probably happened during the colonial years. Some member of the aristocracy deciding to hunt animals with his huge gun, not far from his big white tent, gramophone, drinks cabinet and his retinue of servants and friends loudly moving around.

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8 hours ago, Solaris_Wave said:

Then again, when you see camo patterns in pink, red and orange, it makes me wonder what those are for, other than fashion.

I could not find a specific word for it in English (and I spent minutes of googling!), a direct translation from Swedish is Notice colors (by that I mean notice as in: be aware). Much like the stuff construction workers etc. would wear to make them visible.

They are used for safety reasons since many accidents of hunters shooting other people is that the hunter mistake them for animals or does not notice them while shooting at an animal, and yes that is still the hunters fault for not being absolutely sure of what they are shooting at and the backstop of the bullet fired.

A lot of hunting here takes place in groups hunting together, most of the people in the group will take up positions in the hunting area were they think animals might pass. Then there are a few dog handlers whom walk through the area with their dogs leashed or unleashed (depending on what the handler think is the best choice for the moment) to get the animals to move. The animals will be less aware of the hunters that have taken their spots since they have their focus on the dogs instead.

So even if you are fully aware at the animal you are aiming at you can easily get tunnelvision and not notice the dog or handler behind the animal especially if they don't wear a color that makes them stand out. It can also be the other way around, the dog handler does not notice the guy sitting at his hunting spot behind the animal. Still the fault of whomever pulls the trigger, no doubt about that. 

Many hunting groups here have a mandatory use of such colors during hunts, I myself always keep a orange beanie or pilot cap in my backpack if I need it and if I am situated on a spot along a road I also have a orange vest I can wear. Most animals does not seem to react much to specifically orange. Moose don't seem to react to it, red deer on the other hand takes of like it's on fire when they spot it.

Pink has become a popular substitute for orange since there is a rise of women whom hunt. I cannot say if the animals reacts more or less to pink than orange.

Red was used earlier but has in many cases been dropped in favor of orange, red has a strange way of blending in so you don't notice it so easily.

 

9 hours ago, Solaris_Wave said:

Reading your comments shows just how patient you need to be and how patient snipers have to be, all to get that right opportunity to take the shot.

Like everything else, sometimes you are just damn lucky and other times it does not matter if you have done everything right. It is always a game of chance and probability. The more time you spend in the woods the more likely you are to spot animals. Again our vision is our largest enemy because we often assume that just because you don't see any animals, it does not mean that they are around.

 

9 hours ago, Solaris_Wave said:

When I read your second paragraph about needing food and drink, I humorously envisioned a sniper, decked out in a ghillie suit, lying motionless, totally dedicated to the kill…while his butlers stuck out like a neon sign, walking back and forth with noisy silverware containing his full course meal and beverages.

Maybe Shadow has become comfy with age? 😂 

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On 12/26/2022 at 11:21 PM, GODSPEED said:

I've wanted a good comfy and warm jacket to do photography in winter; which means not moving that much in snowy, damp, windy and cold temperatures.

Sorry if this is basic stuff for you @GODSPEED, I don't know how used you are at staying still for hours in cold weather.

Two of the guys I hunt with has gotten problems with their necks (pain and stiffness) due to spending long time sitting still in windy weather. So bring something to protect your neck!

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Read over your conversations. Interesting stuff!

I do have to admit, for myself, the camo was maybe slightly more "looks" than really a necessity. I don't hunt, so it's pretty debatable if camo for me was necessary. Being kind of a big fan of camouflage, but trying to also look at other options that don't look too military, I've always wanted a nice winter camo for a winter jacket.

These were my initial choices:
Finnish M05 (Winterized version?)
More white shell..

But, I really wanted to test out your advice. So I decided to look away from military stuff, and focus more on the comfort and practicality for MY situation. Glad I did! 😉

I've recently also spotted this jacket from a local hunting clothes company that I am really having to keep myself from checking out with, cause it's my favourite looking pattern so far:
Sportchief - "Voltage" Winter Coat



Yes, @Hendrix, about neck, that is something I do have to get. Even if jackets zip up high enough, it's never really "tight" enough to keep the cold out.

I'll try getting a photo of the jacket I got in some wooded area near me. I hate selfies with my phone, cause my arms aren't long enough 😂.


About the winter camo; I do think it is the more "complicated" one, because there is a huge variety of weather conditions that can make the textile appear a completely different tone than the surrounding landscape. For example, today I went to hike in the woods and it's been a very grey period the last weeks. Around 15:00-16:00, the tone of the surrounding landscape was much warmer than if the sun was out; making the snow appear warm white. So when looking at the sleeve of my jacket versus the ground, I could tell my jacket felt like a cooler tone of white than the snow around me. I think on a sunny day, my jacket would have looked way close to the snow though.


Anyways, I managed to spot a small herd of White-tail Deer and not spook them... although, I don't think that is that hard. Maybe common, but nonetheless, I find these beautiful creatures.


 

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Great pictures @GODSPEED! And do not overestimate how "easy" it might be to get a picture of animals. You did not spook them, that's always a good job done!

 

Must confess that I looked at those Finnish M05 camos several times. If you look at the pictures Varusteleka has taken of the sets being used outside it is very much the same type of environment here where I hunt.

That Voltage jacket looks good! But I am not sure the camo patern would work well here, maybe the white one.

 

On 1/8/2023 at 12:56 AM, GODSPEED said:

Yes, @Hendrix, about neck, that is something I do have to get. Even if jackets zip up high enough, it's never really "tight" enough to keep the cold out.

I prefer tubes instead of scarves, I fold it in on itself so it is like a dual layer. I find that tightens the gap in the neck of the jacket well since that allows the jacket to close up all the way.  https://www.varusteleka.com/en/product/sarma-neck-tube-merino-wool/29253

For the hands I normally wear wrist warmers. https://www.varusteleka.com/en/product/swedish-wrist-warmers-wool-surplus/24381

Or a pair of wool liner gloves. https://www.varusteleka.com/en/product/sarma-tst-l1-liner-gloves-merino-wool/59505

The good thing is that I can wear gloves under the wrist warmers if I need, and if it is really cold I always keep a pair of old leather mittens with a thin wool insulation in my backpack.

Not saying this is what everyone should use, just what works for me.

 

On 1/8/2023 at 12:56 AM, GODSPEED said:

About the winter camo; I do think it is the more "complicated" one, because there is a huge variety of weather conditions that can make the textile appear a completely different tone than the surrounding landscape. For example, today I went to hike in the woods and it's been a very grey period the last weeks. Around 15:00-16:00, the tone of the surrounding landscape was much warmer than if the sun was out; making the snow appear warm white. So when looking at the sleeve of my jacket versus the ground, I could tell my jacket felt like a cooler tone of white than the snow around me. I think on a sunny day, my jacket would have looked way close to the snow though.

Yeah I know exactly what you mean, the set I use today I still find has a unnatural bluish hue sometimes depending on the light, typically during dawn and dusk. I just remember a tip I heard about taking a photo of the camo in the environment you are going to use it and apply a black and white night time filter to the camera. This would then allow you to see if the camo shines or stands out to the background apparently. Never tried it myself though so I can not say for sure if it is reliable.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I don't have any experience with hunting or different types of environment vs. camouflage myself but I am wondering if the actual material and fabric can contribute negatively to how it shows up under certain light? Reading both of your comments, @Hendrix and @GODSPEED, it sounds as if it isn't just the camo pattern that might look out of place in the terrain it is meant for (if it looks too busy or too sparse) but also, if the fabric creates a certain hue to it when the sunlight hits it a certain way.

You see photos showing how good winter camo can be, such as in WWII but those photos are invariably in monochrome, which in essence helps make those outfits blend in even more with the almost monochrome environment (whites, greys and blacks).

Lots of experimentation is being made all the time to create better camouflage, either for personnel or for vehicles, with most of it being active and adaptive. I was wondering though about something a little less expensive or elaborate. Something along the lines of merely allowing the fabric to change its tone as the sunlight changes throughout the day, rather than more fancy chameleon-esque camouflage. As I have no experience in personal camo and the fabrics used, I could be looking into something in a round about stupid way and overthinking something wholly unnecessary, but certain fibres might end up being excellent for warmth and water resistance, while being a little too shiny (and noisy when moving around)?

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On 1/21/2023 at 10:41 PM, Solaris_Wave said:

I could be looking into something in a round about stupid way and overthinking something wholly unnecessary,

No, I think you are right on the spot of the problem but I don't think it is achievable. Just as you stated, light changes both the color of the fabric and the surroundings and getting a fabric to match that is in it self hard to do. Snow shifts greatly depending on the strength of the sunlight, the angle of the sunlight and depending on the weather. Several days of cold weather for instance can create large snow crystals that strongly reflects the light. However if the temperature is around 0 the snow can become grayish. Then upon that (again just as you stated) not only does the fabric have to quiet but also water resistent and breathable. Further upon that, for military use you would also want the fabric to be able to cover you from thermal vision. I am not sure if all this is actually achievable. It might simply be more realistic to develop some kind of cloaking device like we seen in the Predator movies or other active camo tech.

During my army conscription we used an all white snow dress on the outside of our uniform, however due to the usage through the year it was mostly the arms and hood that were still somewhat white, the rest of the set had become beige or black. Also since we carried LBE vests our torsos were still green. So I am not sure if the dress would have mattered much at ranges bellow 300 meters. But then I do not think it was supposed to either. 

Couple of the older guys I hunt with told me that in the 80's they would get white painters coveralls and use green/brown/grey paint to camouflage the coverall. The camo itself worked well, however due to the fabric of the coveralls being cotton, the fabric would suck up so much moisture it became very heavy.

 

Any way, the wife and I went snowshoeing yesterday. It was a bit cold (-15) but it only became a problem when you stayed still for a while.

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In some ways, you would think that a semi-adaptive camo (instead of a more expensive fully adaptive camo) would be easier to create for an individual to wear, when compared to having something on a vehicle. And yet, it appears that progress of different types of camo seems to be more apparent for vehicles. Maybe because the camo is electronically powered and a vehicle will have that in place. I recently saw a picture of a tank's thermal image being changed to that of a car. That certainly is impressive but I am wondering if it will give the game away when the enemy commander or gunner sees four cars moving together in a wedge formation!

Seriously though, some kind of photo sensitive fabric might be possible to create for a single soldier. I am sure the focus would be on completely hiding the wearer by changing their profile in both actual and thermal vision, so it truly mimics the surroundings like a chameleon, whether that is some light-bending, transparent Predator cloaking system (which would probably be electronic anyway) or different technology; but what about some kind of fabric that already has a fixed camo pattern design (which needs to be just right for the environment, like the problems faced today) but it will deepen or brighten depending on the level of sunlight? It wouldn't change the whole outfit either. If the sunlight was stronger on your right arm, for example, then only the arm would change its tone. Again, I could be talking nonsense and this material would need to be light and easy to wear so you are not sweating for the benefit of the camouflage (which would raise your thermal output).

I don't know how much existing camo blends in with the surroundings as sunlight changes throughout the course of the day but from your written accounts on here, it does sound like an issue.

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@Solaris_Wave so we took a photo of me standing next to the treeline to see how the camo works. In my defence I do not try to hide, just standing in front of a snow covered tree next to the road. Sorry about low resolution.

You be the judge how well it works or not. 🙂

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Edited by Hendrix
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I must say that whatever camo you are wearing has got to be good because I can't even find you in that picture! I have looked for some time, wondering how tall you would be against the trees or whether I am even missing a joke, where you aren't in the photo at all and just took a photo of a scene and pretended you were in it 😆.

Whatever the situation, I think it proves the importance of camo because if I was struggling to spot you, imagine the scenario where you are a sniper waiting to shoot an enemy. Any amount of time where you don't know where the sniper is, is advantageous to the sniper themselves as they have more time to line up on you, pull the trigger and end your life. Not only that, but you have given me a scenario where you have said that somebody is definitely present in the scene and I am supposed to eventually see you within that picture. It is creating a scenario where you are saying, "Somewhere within this scene is an enemy sniper. The longer you take to spot them, the less chance you have at surviving."

Now imagine not expecting somebody to be there and just walking along, trying to be alert for danger, but still getting shot. There might not even be anybody waiting for you here but there could be farther up, half a kilometre away. No wonder artillery has been called in to get rid of snipers in the past.

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2 hours ago, Solaris_Wave said:

where you aren't in the photo at all and just took a photo of a scene and pretended you were in it 😆.

Exactly! That's the best camo,  having people look where you are not. 😁

Jokes aside. I belive the low resolution helps alot to.

Here's another picture for reference, taken while I am standing in the same spot. But I thought I was to easy to spot here.

IMG-20230128-WA0002.thumb.jpg.23cc8c472d78153fcd66c67a680c11c6.jpg

 

2 hours ago, Solaris_Wave said:

Now imagine not expecting somebody to be there and just walking along, trying to be alert for danger, but still getting shot. There might not even be anybody waiting for you here but there could be farther up, half a kilometre away. No wonder artillery has been called in to get rid of snipers in the past.

Yupp, a sniper would (atleast normally) not take a shoot as close as this picture since that would give them away emidiatly. I would guess they rather not be closer than 500 meters (at the very extreme) from their target and at that distance you would have 0 chance to spot them before it is to late. 

But just as you said, if you are not expecting to find something or someone, you are very likly to miss them. So hiding from plain eye vision is fairly easy.

Here's a link to a retailer for the camo the Finns use, scroll through the pictures and you can se some field pictures.

https://www.varusteleka.com/en/product/sarma-tst-l7-camouflage-anorak/58285

https://www.varusteleka.com/en/product/sarma-tst-l5-thermal-jacket/58315

https://www.varusteleka.com/en/product/sarma-tst-l4-recon-smock/51301

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