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Rant of an old fart, as well as some wishlisting


Low_K

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So I only just recently found out about this announcement and being a JA2 veteran, and having every spin-off, sequel, Kickstarter etc. (although I never played the online game) of that masterpiece, this actually doesnt look half bad.

I'll do a quick synopsis of the (mostly wasted) efforts companies tried to make a worthy successor to Jagged Alliance 2 (a game from 1999, some of the Younglings might not even been born then). Some might bring back memories for us old farts.

-7.62 High Calibre/Hard Life- They tried to do something different with the franchise, if I recall correctly they were first hired to make JA3, but later were taken off the project. they made these spin-offs, which were not too bad but not great either. I could not get them to work properly on current pc, so my memory might be a bit rusty.

-Jagged Alliance- Back In Action. A surprisingly enjoyable game although the change to the 3d portraits and the real-time-with-pause combat steered heavily away from the original. Furthermore, the voices were a miss as you would not recognise any of the originals. You had equipment showing on your 3d portrait and it was advisable to get as much face covering clothes as you cpuld, as to not having to look at those ridiculous portraits. There was no player customisation though but the story and setting were the same. It is a bit of an underrated game. But with many missing features it really wasn't a JA3. The sequel, Crossfire, was a cheap cash grab and not enjoyable at all.

-Jagged Alliance Flashback- A Kickstarter project which I had high hopes for. this was, again, a major disappointment. There was player character customisation and prettier graphics, but there the pro's ended. This disgrace of a game was another feeble attempt to slap the Jagged Alliance name on something and not refusing staying true to the original. Some key features were missing; The laptop was not there anymore, one of the major things that defined JA2! The militia system was barebones, and that is saying it nice, as you could not even assist militia with the defense of the sector, not even when your mercs were in the same location! But they royally screwed up the voices. You could see that funding ran out as the game felt rushed and was a major disappointment.

-Jagged Alliance:Rage!- Other than the named mercs and JA name, this is nothing more than a cheap mobile game where they hope on sales due to the name. the gameplay is basic and I didn't enjoy it.

One thing all those wannabe-Jagged Alliance games had, was one major flaw; The voices and banter between the mercs. That was one of the most fun features which made playing JA2 so enjoyable. As all of those companies had access to the original code (one can imagine as they have the rights from Sirtech), why not add the original voice files in the game? Hell, I play XCOM2 with the Jagged Alliance voice mods and those voices are so great (exceptions there, like Ira (oh how annoying was she)), playing XCOM2 always takes me back to Jagged Alliance when I hear Wolf, Red, Scope or anyone else through the headphones. Luckily the voices in this 2021 trailer are more akin to the originals! Fidel, Ivan and Vicki all sound great! This is hopeful. The facial expression of Ivan when Fidel threw his grenades, makes me hope there will be banter and connection between the mercs. This would be a very good feature!

Now some wishlisting for the Devs;

Please add the different websites which you could access through your laptop. Especially I.M.P. (to create your custom character) but also the other great webpages you could visit like M.E.R.C. and Bobby Ray's.

Another great addition would be to make the game open ended, like in JA2. Other than the start town, you were free to conquer everything as you saw fit. There were different endings and side quests etc. Please also add these features in the game.

I am afraid that with the current cancel culture, I doubt we will see the beheadings of the original. One can hope, but I really doubt it. I am also very worried that they will tone down the gore. The exploding heads were awesome back in the day, but in the current climate I doubt they will add this to the game. The blood trails were a feature which also need to be added to this game. It was always fun as hell to follow that last wounded enemy and finish him off when found. If the Devs read this, please do add all those features, even if you have to put it behind a settings slider. Make Jagged Alliance proud again!

The mention of Coop makes me even more excited! I always loved to be able to play JA2 in coop. Players all controlling different mercs squads. So not that one player recruits them and the other player can also use them. No, Human players all have access to A.I.M. and can hire their own squads and do their own thing on the map, independant of the host. Joint attacks on provinces are possible, questlines can be shared and so on. Hopefully the plans for coop are like this, make it so that every human player is their own contractor, but with a common goal of overthrowing the dictator. This would be more awesome than awesomesauce!

The trailer looks great, but as the gameplay is from pre-alpha, I think a realistic release date is late 2022/ early 2023? I think many of my fellow Forumites would be eager to Alpha/Beta test the game so that we can assist you, the Devs, with making the sequel Jagged Alliance 2 deserves! I know i would sign up in an instant!

Thanks for reading, not much to read yet on the, rather newly created, forums so hopefully this helped some. Please feel free to disagree with any points or correct me where I am wrong.

 

 

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I think you might confuse the 7.62 people.

First there have been works on a Jagged Alliance 3 (Akella)/ Strategy First. Later on there has been works on Jagged Alliance 3D by GFI. They lost the license though and the game was renamed to Jazz: Hired Guns. And because renaming it once wasnt good enough they renamed it again into "Hired Guns: Jagged Edge". These people then also made "Alfa Antiterror". Alfa Antiterror even states "By the makers of Jagged Alliance 3D" on the box.

Regarding Multiplayer: Just wanted to throw in that's its not the first time of Multiplayer in JA. JA Deadly Games was basically focused on multiplayer.

Ofc there also has been the Abomination of Jagged Alliance Online - A browsergame. Let's forget about that.

However in a preview of the original Jagged Alliance 3 it was also stated that the game will have multiplayer. If I remember correctly there should be up to 3 players leading different merc teams. I think I read that in a German magazine. Dont have it available right now, but might in a few months and have another look.

[quote]o, Human players all have access to A.I.M. and can hire their own squads and do their own thing on the map, independant of the host.[/quote]

I think you are overglorifying it a bit without thinking about how it would work mechanically. ^^
If all players actually play on the world map and do battles. How is it supposed to work? If player A is engaged in a combat do you want to wait until he is finished? Or do you want to take over one of his characters or even play the enemy so it doesnt get boring?

If thats not the case, then you would probably play in realtime and simultaneous turnbased for the players in combat, meaning day/night cycles wont work and the single player experience would suffer.

Playing multiple groups simultaneously works in a browsergame, but in a "real" game it would be super complicated. I got no idea how they intended to do it (if they actually planned it) in the original JA3.

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While it's pretty easy to get lost in requests and things we want in JA3... one thing that I believe most real veterans of JA2 would like, are the personalities.

This is one of the major element that made JA1&2 so special. While most games simply have a male/female with stats and maybe the option to kit out differently, Sir-Tech brought us a wide variety of cutlures, stereotypes, caricatures and takes on all sorts of personalities, from the humouristic, to the psycho, to the soldier, the loser and everything in between. They weren't afraid to touch on feminism, sexism, racism and complete weirdos.

All this, plus the fact they were all fully voiced by someone with a pretty accurate culture to the merc being portrayed gave us some realism and feeling of attachment. We could shape a team based on our own personal biases, personalities, stats and ideals.

That said, where I differ from you, and maybe from most, is in the use of all these mercs from JA2.

I think using old mercs we've grown to love and hate, all with unique dialogs, voices and personalities makes it near impossible to "replicate" with precision. Thus, when you will play this new game, seeing/using these mercs will feel "off". It won't be right.

I really liekd how Jagged Alliance 2 introduced fresh new faces, while retaining a few old ones. Gus being a veteran. Mike being on the other side... etc...

Seeing these old faces in the video, as if they had not even aged feels weird. I mean, 22 years since those characters. I am not certain if it is simply to ease us into this game, just because of nostalgia? (or a complete lack of understanding the original games)?

Let those old dogs sleep. Keep a couple of the young faces of JA2 be old retired mercs in the new game.. or old timer vets like Gus was.

Not only for the modern-day social drama, but for the sake of just getting on with new stories, new INTERESTING and FULLY VOICED  personalities that will keep us coming to get a hang of the chemistry between them.


I would also love to go on about having realistic weaponry and loadouts... but I feel like, unfortunately for JA, that is NOT Heamimont games' strong point.

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@Kordanor "First there have been works on a Jagged Alliance 3 (Akella)/ Strategy First. Later on there has been works on Jagged Alliance 3D by GFI. They lost the license though and the game was renamed to Jazz: Hired Guns. And because renaming it once wasnt good enough they renamed it again into "Hired Guns: Jagged Edge". These people then also made "Alfa Antiterror". Alfa Antiterror even states "By the makers of Jagged Alliance 3D" on the box."

Ah yes, I remember now! Hired Guns:Jagged Edge! Totally forgot about them! still must have it somewhere on disc in the attic come to think of it. Might be fun to dust it off sometime, if it still works. Can't remember much from that game.

Good points regarding the multiplayer. I was so excited that I forgot about the mechanics, hehehe. As you state it like that, it might pose a problem. The battles in JA2 could take a while so I agree that it would not be preferable for the other players to wait for them. But then I wonder what kind of multiplayer we will see in JA3 as they state it is one of the features. JA2 1.13 added multiplayer and I could only find some footage of deathmatch gameplay, not from the coop gameplay. I never played the multiplayer part of 1.13 and I wonder how that works. We will have to wait for more details on that feature then, the fact that they added coop multiplayer is already awesome in my book!

Thanks for correcting me, I get sometimes overzealous for games which I really look forward to. 🙂

@GODSPEEDIn my rant I talked about the personalities and banter between mercs. Luckily we both agree that the feature is one of the most important things to add. But I am also very worried with this feature in present times. As I said regarding the beheadings and exploding heads, nowadays we have a cancel culture so I highly doubt they can get away with the stereotypes and behaviours of the original mercs and will have to change some voice lines. 

yeah we differ from not using the old mercs. I like to see the old mercs return in the game, but am not opposed (and actually would applaud that) if they also add some new mercs. While the idea of the change in mercs from JA:DG to JA2 is great, I still feel that having this game a reskin of JA2, albeit a different country, will help to get old players into the game. Like I said, I grew fond of certain characters from JA2 and that is why I still use their voices in XCOM2. Jagged Alliance 3 maybe takes place a few years after the fall of Deidranna, as it would explain the not ageing of the original mercs. Some new mercs could be added to the roster, a bit like in the Expandables films.

More likely, imho, this game is no sequel to JA2 story- or setting wise, but just a new adaption, or remake of Jagged Alliance 2. That Deirdranna, Arulco or Elliot will not excist in the Jagged Alliance 3 world. The start (hopefully) of a new Jagged Alliance era with many sequels, which then may use the old JA:DG to JA2 merc evolution. A bit like a reset of the franchise.

Regarding your point about realistic weapons; the weapon graphics in the trailer look not too bad. As for other equipment, the trailer doesn't show that part. So maybe you could explain that note a bit further as I might not understand what you mean.

On a sidenote, I am rather glad that they do not show the equipment on the portrait (while it was necessary in "Back in Action", I never liked it in 1.13). The character portraits in JA3 look great, so no need to cover them with gear. To make it more clear, I wouldn't mind having gear changes on the character models themselves though. So that if you wear some body armour, your character shows it on its body in the tactical combat phase.

Also thanks for your reply!

 

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5 hours ago, Low_K said:

Regarding your point about realistic weapons; the weapon graphics in the trailer look not too bad. As for other equipment, the trailer doesn't show that part. So maybe you could explain that note a bit further as I might not understand what you mean.

On a sidenote, I am rather glad that they do not show the equipment on the portrait (while it was necessary in "Back in Action", I never liked it in 1.13). The character portraits in JA3 look great, so no need to cover them with gear. To make it more clear, I wouldn't mind having gear changes on the character models themselves though. So that if you wear some body armour, your character shows it on its body in the tactical combat phase.

Jagged Alliance is a little "dated", so I won't compare to that too much. But I will compare my thoughts with JA2.

Where I find it is difficult to make ideas in my mind, is that we've been so well treated with the 1.13 mod. To me, it has become unimaginable to play JA2 without the basic features of 1.13, like the resolutions and incredible amount of weapon choices.

I remember when Flashback came out, how empty it felt; as much for lack of character, as for lack of items. Yes, I know, they actually wanted to "remake" JA1, not JA2. But, as a big fan of JA2 1.13, it is hard to swallow to go back to such a low-tech style as JA1.

I would hope that JA3 would expand on the choice of weaponry found in stock JA2, more attachments, various ammo types, more guns, more liberty in the way I approach the map.

7,62 High Calibre was a gun nuts wet dream. 1.13 gave us something similar, but in the world of JA2.

 

I am afraid, like you said, with current cancel culture, the we get something very "lite" like Xcom.

 

Jagged Alliance 2 managed to have some sense of humour, but at the same time, it was able to talk about, and show a gritty world. While graphically basic, hie many games have you beheading a terrorists head to go cash it in for some sweet money!? Or finding crows eating the remains of all the bodies your team left in a small village?

To the be treated to a funny video of that totalitarian Deidranna smacking Elliot around..

..anyways, I'm ranting too.

 

 

I also always disabled the portrait gear stuff. With modern resolutions, I can't see how they can't manage to show little icons next to portraits for effects and worn gear. Like Baldur's Gate.

I do really like the simple UI in JA2 though. How you can easily expand the mercs equipment with the right click. It was simple, efficient and it meant I didn't have to contantly fumble around ooening an inventory window.

I want more of that. I don't want an inventory window that overlay over the game world.

I think it would just be natural for equipment to show on the merc as well, almost necessary, no more excuses nowadays.

Anyways, it is complicated to have realistic expectations after seeing how far 1.13 has brought the tactical side of JA2.

 

I wonder if they even take notice of 1.13, or if they only compare to base JA2. What do you think?

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Nice JA history overview. I've always felt like all official games after JA2 are best ignored as they only harm the franchise. The 1.13 mod however was the best mod for any game I have ever experienced, improving upon most of the game mechanics and features. The striking realistic weapon and weapon customization variety is what launched this game to my personal top 5 games. Xcom is great, but its formula would be a terrible oversimplification. I wouldn't want to play a JA which has just bullets (with no specific caliber, type, etc).

JA2 1.13 with modern graphics is everything JA3 should aim for. The other titles are just irrelevant.

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