Splattercat's Beta Preview

[Solaris_Wave]

I just recently saw this video on YouTube. Splattercat's channel is very good and has introduced me to many games that I didn't know were being made (and causing my Steam Wishlist to grow ever larger), therefore it is nice to see JA3 appear on his channel.

https://youtu.be/bqBvKm07G5E

 

I still can't get YouTube links to appear as a playable video from the forum, despite clicking Share and Embed Video. They insist as appearing only as a link.

Edited April 23, 2023 by Solaris_Wave

[chr_isso]

He's making some valid points in his summary, e.g. not knowing the exact percentage of his chance-to-hit which might be JA-style but could be too frustrating for players coming from other games.

So i opt for options and making the game as accessible as possible to appeal to a lot of players.

but then again, he says he didn't play the OG JA2 but the game feels like JA to him. Like .. what?

So I guess the game is on the right way but still needs a lot of polish.

[Solaris_Wave]

He also said that JA1 was the better received game when compared to JA2. That is not true but I nevertheless wanted to post his preview because he has introduced me to games I would have never have known about.

I really don't have a problem not knowing the percentage chance to hit and I have been playing turn-based squad strategy games since the 1980s. Unless you are a killer robot, you can't narrow down to a precise percentage your chance to hit. A vague indicator is just as suitable, such as an thickening, pulsing outline or colour temperature around the enemy when checking to shoot. At least that way you know you can make a shot in the first place. It can be separated by a percentage bracket: 0-25%, 26-50%, 51-75%, 76-100% with each of those brackets affecting the outline around the enemy. Either that or just have the merc tell you they have no chance making that shot.

I know people are used to seeing a percentage but there is no reason why JA3 can't innovate.

[scope112]

2 hours ago, Solaris_Wave said:

He also said that JA1 was the better received game when compared to JA2. That is not true but I nevertheless wanted to post his preview because he has introduced me to games I would have never have known about.

I really don't have a problem not knowing the percentage chance to hit and I have been playing turn-based squad strategy games since the 1980s. Unless you are a killer robot, you can't narrow down to a precise percentage your chance to hit. A vague indicator is just as suitable, such as an thickening, pulsing outline or colour temperature around the enemy when checking to shoot. At least that way you know you can make a shot in the first place. It can be separated by a percentage bracket: 0-25%, 26-50%, 51-75%, 76-100% with each of those brackets affecting the outline around the enemy. Either that or just have the merc tell you they have no chance making that shot.

I know people are used to seeing a percentage but there is no reason why JA3 can't innovate.

The MERCS actually give many cues about CtH. Not sure why nobody is picking up on this. Mercs often say that they either have a bad feeling about the shot (indicating low CtH) and that they feel confident about the shot (indicating high CtH)

[Solaris_Wave]

3 hours ago, scope112 said:

The MERCS actually give many cues about CtH. Not sure why nobody is picking up on this. Mercs often say that they either have a bad feeling about the shot (indicating low CtH) and that they feel confident about the shot (indicating high CtH)

I see that as a good opportunity to lessen the visual clutter with the overlays and player aids. Some people want visual representation regardless of anything the merc might say, however.

[BossWeapons]

4 hours ago, scope112 said:

The MERCS actually give many cues about CtH. Not sure why nobody is picking up on this. Mercs often say that they either have a bad feeling about the shot (indicating low CtH) and that they feel confident about the shot (indicating high CtH)

Yeah, I noticed the same. People try taking difficult shots when the character cearly says "Not gonna happen." in the background. Many of the people playing don't seem to understand the range indicator either. I don't know how much range makes a difference in this game, but shooting from outside the effective range in all the previous JA games severely diminished the changes to hit anything.

[Solaris_Wave]

A good way to do it would be to have a maximum range of a weapon, which would essentially be effective range rather than actual maximum. Outside of this range, a merc could say, "It's too far!". If you try again, they take the shot. A bullet beyond the effective range can potentially hit but accuracy drops off sharply and damage is reduced. This is to represent the slowing velocity of the bullet.

I think that would make more sense than simply being told, "No, you can't." or the bullet being totally fine up to so many spaces away and then somehow magically falling to the ground, one space after that max distance.

[chr_isso]

14 hours ago, Solaris_Wave said:

He also said that JA1 was the better received game when compared to JA2. That is not true but I nevertheless wanted to post his preview because he has introduced me to games I would have never have known about.

I really don't have a problem not knowing the percentage chance to hit and I have been playing turn-based squad strategy games since the 1980s. Unless you are a killer robot, you can't narrow down to a precise percentage your chance to hit. A vague indicator is just as suitable, such as an thickening, pulsing outline or colour temperature around the enemy when checking to shoot. At least that way you know you can make a shot in the first place. It can be separated by a percentage bracket: 0-25%, 26-50%, 51-75%, 76-100% with each of those brackets affecting the outline around the enemy. Either that or just have the merc tell you they have no chance making that shot.

I know people are used to seeing a percentage but there is no reason why JA3 can't innovate.

okay, but there is no indication if the circle size doesn't change depending on chance-to-hit.
e.g.: When you hover over an enemy that is in the open field and close to the merc (e.g.) 80% hit chance, the initial circle should be small. By investing points, the circle gets so small that it actually means: 100% hit chance.
Take the circle as the standard distribution of shots, like in World of Tanks.


The smaller the cicle the higher the chance to hit.

But: in JA2 and JA3 the circle could be VERY small and still mean an unlikely chance to hit.

So if you got like 10% chance to hit, the circle should be ridiculously big. You invest points, but the circle will only get a little smaller.. since you try an headshot from 100 meters with a desert eagle and no optics/laser on it..

what I'm saying is: i dont need numbers, but a reflection of likelyhood to hit in the circle.

[Claudius33]

8 hours ago, Solaris_Wave said:

I think that would make more sense than simply being told, "No, you can't." or the bullet being totally fine up to so many spaces away and then somehow magically falling to the ground, one space after that max distance.

Free aim is available.

[Solaris_Wave]

Sorry, @Claudius33, I didn't understand what you meant when you quoted my post and said that free aim is available. Please could you tell me how those two things relate?

[Claudius33]

Sorry @Solaris_Wave, my English is rather rusty, I haven't had any opportunity to speak for almost 4 years. I misinterpreted what you said. Don't mind my post.

Edited April 25, 2023 by Claudius33
spellcheck

[Solaris_Wave]

No problem. Your English is actually fine.

[Solaris_Wave]

After watching his play-through of the Beta in his video, a few things have stayed in my mind. I will also post this in @WILDFIRE's Known Beta Issues thread, to try to keep things together.

• Dead enemies really should be lootable. If Haemimont are concerned that it is a quick way to rapidly get better weapons without paying for them, there can be caveats to using such equipment. The weapons can be poorly maintained, especially if they were carried by basic enemies. The guns could be under 50% maintenance level, increasing likelihood of jamming or failure. The poor maintenance will also slightly reduce damage, accuracy and range. Ammo carried by fallen enemies can be limited in what is remaining, forcing you to scavenge in the beginning. Certain other items will most likely be damaged or destroyed due to taking fire from your mercs. This can mean that any available body armour might be worthless.

 

• Gunshots need to be louder. The Browning Hi-Power sounded fairly quiet and I could hear a sound effect of a ricochet or of a bullet passing through the air (maybe part of the same sound file as the gunshot?), which was just as loud. I know it is a 9mm Parabellum pistol but a slight increase in volume wouldn't be a bad idea.

 

• Headshot damage seems weak, even if the headshot I saw was 'only' from a 9mm round. Maybe it is just the Beta but the enemy took damage and nothing else happened. I think that any headshot that doesn't kill or is absorbed by armour (helmet and/or face plate) should affect the target with additional effects, whether it is being stunned or a penalty to attributes. Also, there should be a possibility to incapacitate the target. The chance should be there where they end up unconscious.

 

• I have said this before from my own experiences when playing JA2 and I will say it again. Body part aiming needs restrictions. There needs to be a situation where body part aiming is only allowed at close ranges, or with a scope and a high enough skill. Also, the target cannot be running. Any other situation just lets you choose the target and the hit location is random. The torso has the greatest chance of being hit, followed by the arms and legs, then the head, hands and feet. There needs to be a lesser chance of hitting the head anyway, especially as it causes the most damage and almost any hit there, if unarmoured, will cause penalties for the target's health and abilities. I was watching the video and all the way through, he just chose the head, when shooting a gun. Yes, there were misses but overall it was the sensible area to target. If you can freely and easily target the head all the time, why choose any other part of the body? You will always kill your target quicker that way.

[Claudius33]

I share your points. As you say, overall it's a game balance issue.

Considering loot, Vanilla JA2 has selected only lootable corpses. JA2 1.13 introduced the drop all option. I never used it, because as you say you get to much stuff too early. If you use the Sell to Locals 1.13 option you make even more money early.

If weapons maintenance takes really time, while your others mercs are paid but not active, perhaps a fair trade off.

Look at this : Simo Häyhä

"Häyhä used his issued Civil Guard rifle, an early series SAKO M/28-30, serial number 35281, Civil Guard number S60974. It was a Finnish Civil Guard variant of the Mosin–Nagant rifle known as "Pystykorva" (lit. 'The Spitz' due to the front sight's resemblance to the head of a spitz-type dog) chambered in the Finnish-designed Mosin–Nagant cartridge 7.62×53R. When fighting as a group leader with the rest of his unit, he used a Suomi KP/-31 submachine gun.

Häyhä preferred iron sights over telescopic sights, as they enable a sniper to present a smaller target for the enemy (a sniper must raise his head a few centimetres higher when using a telescopic sight), and can be relied on even in extreme cold, unlike telescopic sights which tend to cloud up in cold weather. Another disadvantage of telescopic sights is that sunlight may reflect off the lenses and reveal the sniper's position. Häyhä did not have prior training with scoped rifles, and therefore preferred not to switch to the Soviet scoped rifle (M/91-30 PE or PEM)."

Bottomline : you use a scoped weapon, you are unlikely to make a stealh kill, likely be detected, and less covered. That could somewhat make scoped sniper rifles less owerpowered. I don't think that the game considers the sun position though, that could be nice too.

Considering the record of this famous sniper, obviously you can make a headshot without a scope.

 

Edited April 26, 2023 by Claudius33
spellcheck

[Reloecc]

12 minutes ago, Claudius33 said:

JA2 1.13 introduced the drop all option. I never used it, because as you say you get to much stuff too early.

Little Off Topic: 1.13 has settings for "enemy drop has low condition" and also "militia uses sector equipment". In combination with balancing JA2 has: "Better equip you have, better equip enemy has." things works just nice. In result, enemies drop plenty of tommy submachines noone wants to use, but milita will be happy for them.

If it's about balance, if "enemies drop all" leads to unbalance, do things to balance it out:

• don't allow sector sell (only vendor sell)
• drop dmged equipment
• don't prepare loots elsewhere
• don't allow looting grass for meds
• don't give away free money
• make repairing long / hard with parts needed

[Hendrix]

17 minutes ago, Claudius33 said:

Bottomline : you use a scoped weapon, you are unlikely to make a stealh kill, likely be detected, and less covered. That could somewhat make scoped sniper rifles less owerpowered. I don't think that the game considers the sun position though, that could be nice too.

Considering the record of this famous sniper, obviously you can make a headshot without a scope.

The long range shooter in me has to make a statement here.

I understand Häyhä's preferences and consider them specifically situational to the Winter war, why?

1. Most of the the shoots were taken at a relatively short range, a skilled shooter with a rifle he is familiar with, would not have much problem landing a shoot at 300 meters using iron sights. Maybe not headshots but definitely 1/3 figure.

2. Due to the combat taking place in the winter in Finland, that means that the sun does not reach very high over the horizon. Making scope glare a problem due to the design of scopes at the time (no scope tube extension) and the sun at a bad angle.

By no means do I try to diminish Häyhä's incredible accomplishments in any way.

While scope glare is a thing, in a modern setting (I would estimate the at least 50 years) any sniper worth a damn would know how to prevent it with todays design of scopes. Scope glare is very much a video game mechanic to balance snipers.

If someone takes 1 shot at you from 300 meters or more, in the very best case you have a general sense of direction where the shot came from. A scoped sniper rifle even unsuppressed is a very stealthy platform.

[Claudius33]

I'm far from having your expertise, I trust you.

Edited April 26, 2023 by Claudius33
Syntax

[Hendrix]

@Claudius33

I hope I didn't come across as a wise ass, and by no means am I any sniper. I just hunt and practise long range shooting at a recreational level.

[Claudius33]

@Hendrix Not at all. I shot 10 rounds with a MAS 56 rifle, a few shots with a MAB something pistol, a couple of bursts with a MAT 49 and two bursts with a LMG, can't remember which one. As you see my experience is very limited.

[Hendrix]

@Claudius33

But it is endlessly more than none! 🙂

Hunting has always been a part of my life, long range shooting is a relatively new interest. Did go through army conscription training roughly 20 years ago. So that's my experience in short.

[Claudius33]

@Hendrix I made my military service in the French Navy as an IT teacher a long long while ago. Assembly language and Fortran time 😇. 

Best memories : one week onboard a classic submarine and that invitation to the shooting range by one submarine crew which gave me the opportunity to try the MAT 49, the pistol and the LMG.

[Solaris_Wave]

Some very good points here when talking about lootable items. It is hard to know what is the best choice. I had forgotten about the possibility of picking up all the low quality items and selling them on for early money. I suppose that, as a way out, you could have it so the vendor refuses them, saying they are in poor condition and that they already have a surplus of such stuff.

It is knowing what option is the best one:

• If you don't have lootable items, why not? Would people playing the game think it is silly that you can't, especially when minutes beforehand, those enemies were using that equipment against your mercs?
• If they aren't lootable, there could be the excuse (which could be said as audio near the beginning of the game) that each merc doesn't want to use poor equipment or that they prefer to use their own.
• Maybe have it so that only some items are lootable. Ammunition and first aid kits would be a good example. Then again, would a merc trust such ammunition and medical kits?

Maybe Haemimont have chosen the best option in terms of balance, despite it raising the question why nothing can be looted. Maybe having the aforementioned speech about not wanting to use such equipment would be a good compromise and explanation.

 

Finally, regarding the visibility of scopes in WWII compared to today, I don't think it was that common to camouflage scopes back then. Other than maybe wrapping some kind of fabric around the scope to hide its profile, from photos I have seen, they were always in original black coating. Today, they can be painted in different colours and have meshes over the lenses to break up possible glare.

Also, against the white winter background, as well as glare from the lower sun and the closer ranges, without any kind of cover or different colour, the traditional black coating of a scope is going to show up easier.

[Hendrix]

6 hours ago, Solaris_Wave said:

Finally, regarding the visibility of scopes in WWII compared to today, I don't think it was that common to camouflage scopes back then. Other than maybe wrapping some kind of fabric around the scope to hide its profile, from photos I have seen, they were always in original black coating. Today, they can be painted in different colours and have meshes over the lenses to break up possible glare.

Also, against the white winter background, as well as glare from the lower sun and the closer ranges, without any kind of cover or different colour, the traditional black coating of a scope is going to show up easier.

Extension tubes for scopes are a very effective way for a shooter to shadow the lense from the sun. On my own rifle you can clearly see the line were the extension tube starts on the scope. 

[Solaris_Wave]

Very nice looking rifle. I am not familiar with that one. Is it chambered for .308/7.62x51mm?

[Hendrix]

@Solaris_Wave nah it's the national pride 6,5x55 SWE 🇸🇪😁. The Rifle itself is a Sig Sauer 200 STR (Scandinavian Target Rifle) used for a bunch of different competitions around here.

It is possible however to switch the barrel to a 7.62x51 instead. Magazine and bolt works with both calibers.

There's even .22lr conversion available for practice.