Weapon tiers

[Raeven]

Figuring out the best weapons in the game is a little difficult because different weapons allow different mods.

For example, as far as I can tell, the auto-5 is the best shotgun in the game because it can have an extended barrel and increase its range to 20 with sabot shells.

Another example is the mp5k, which has a non removable barrel that reduces the AP to 3 but also reduces the range. On @DougS2K's spreadsheet it's listed as the base (unmodded) AP of 4 but since the "mod" is not removable, it's really 3.

Basically, the spreadsheet as it currently exists doesn't really show what weapons are best, but there's no straightforward way to represent that since mods are so variable. 

Any other guns that people have noticed are more powerful than you would necessarily think?

Edited July 31, 2023 by Raeven

[Melliores]

It is better to try to compare weapons by role instead of type.

For example, the Steyr AUG has a great sniper configuration. It is more accurate than a proper sniper rifle with 11 accuracy per AIM level, 13 with Match ammunition. It has also 36 range which only the M82 can better. Important to note -  the AUG only cost 4 to fire Single shot and 5 in burst. It can kill at least two targets per turn provided you can crit on your headshot. Give an AUG to Kalyna and use her special talent - penetration won't matter at all.

The Dragunov SVD has a scary Overwatch configuration - Light stock (one extra shot per Overwatch), Reflex sight and a Bipod. All this with 36 range and good critical chance. Give it 7,62 WP Hollow Point that you can buy from the Fleatown Market and handle it to a merc who can crit on Overwatch. It stops anyone in their tracks, better than any other burst weapon for Overwatch/Interrupt. 🙂

We can go on but first we need to define roles in which to categorize the weapons. 🙂

Edited July 31, 2023 by Melliores

[Solaris_Wave]

It sounds like I might have to spend so long revising each and every gun in a mod, that it is putting me off doing it in the first place.

Edited July 31, 2023 by Solaris_Wave

[sandman25dcsss]

At some point accuracy becomes less important than damage and critical because stealth kill chance diminishes vs harder enemies and the enemies have higher HP.

[Melliores]

With the right perks late game (Sharpshooter adding damage to your first shot and Anatomical knowledge giving you +50% crit damage) you can very much headshot any enemy with a 5,56 round. Now, probably not bosses, though everyone else is in peril of your sniper merc and their Steyr AUG or your weapon of choice. 🙂

[sandman25dcsss]

3 minutes ago, Melliores said:

With the right perks late game (Sharpshooter adding damage to your first shot and Anatomical knowledge giving you +50% crit damage) you can very much headshot any enemy with a 5,56 round. Now, probably not bosses, though everyone else is in peril of your sniper merc and their Steyr AUG or your weapon of choice. 🙂

My point is AUG is not good for snipers no matter which accuracy bonuses it has, too low damage.

[Melliores]

Not really - critical hits make any calibre viable with headshots. The fact that can do 2 aimed headshots per turn makes it even deadlier. If the enemy survives the first, there will be a second coming right after it. You can also do headshot bursts if you want to.

You can combine the sniper with a spotter who has a red dot on their fast-firing weapon. Having Marked on the potential targets will guarantee critical hits on that enemy till the end of the turn. Burst shot against a Marked target means all shots will be criticals.

Edited August 1, 2023 by Melliores

[sandman25dcsss]

8 minutes ago, Melliores said:

Not really - critical hits make any calibre viable with headshots. The fact that can do 2 aimed headshots per turn makes even deadlier. If the enemy survives the first, there will be a second coming right after it. You can also do headshot bursts if you want to.

You can combine the sniper with a spotter who has a red dot on their fast-firing weapon. Having Marked on the potential targets will guarantee critical hits on that enemy till the end of the turn. Burst shot against a Marked target means all shots will be criticals.

Why would I use 2 shots or special ammo if I can do the same with 1 basic ammo by using better weapon? Currently there is a bug with some perk/weapon mod combo which allows to shoot with 5 aim levels without spending any AP if it is your first action during turn (should be just 3 aim levels based on perk description). Of course you would not know about the bug if you don't use CtH mod, as vanilla displays both bonuses as single + lol.

Edited August 1, 2023 by sandman25dcsss

[Melliores]

You can use 2 shots with basic 5,56 ammo if you wan to. However if you simply do an aimed burst with your first attack, you won't need any second attack. That is because you have better accuracy than sniper rifles and can take the accuracy hit from the burst fire.

Yes, you use more ammo this way, but by the mid game you will have plenty of 5,56, especially basic rounds. If you do not use that bug, the extra accuracy from the AUG and the attachments allows for a very stable headshot combo, be it either single shot from stealth or burst fire in regular combat.

And most importantly, your regular single shot is only 4 AP, compared to 7 or 8 AP for sniper rifles. If you are engaging targets up close, you can do even 3 attacks per turn (with little to no aiming) and score headshots.

You are basically trading off some base damage for speed of fire and accuracy. 

 

Edited August 1, 2023 by Melliores

[sandman25dcsss]

5 minutes ago, Melliores said:

You can use 2 shots with basic 5,56 ammo if you wan to. However if you simply do an aimed burst with your first attack, you won't need any second attack. That is because you have better accuracy than sniper rifles and can take the accuracy hit from the burst fire.

Yes, you use more ammo this way, but by the mid game you will have plenty of 5,56, especially basic rounds. If you do not use that bug, the extra accuracy from the AUG and the attachments allows for a very stable headshot combo, be it either single shot from stealth or burst fire in regular combat.

And most importantly, your regular single shot is only 4 AP, compared to 7 or 8 AP for sniper rifles. If you are engaging targets up close, you can do even 3 attacks per turn (with little to no aiming) and score headshots.

You are basically trading off some base damage for speed of fire and accuracy. 

 

I mean better rifle allows to kill twice as many enemies. My snipers kill 2 enemies per turn losing 2 basic ammo. AUG does not allow it, it requires either more ammo, non-basic ammo or kills just 1 enemy.

Edited August 1, 2023 by sandman25dcsss

[Raeven]

8 hours ago, Solaris_Wave said:

It sounds like I might have to spend so long revising each and every gun in a mod, that it is putting me off doing it in the first place.

Modding weapons is fun though.

[Melliores]

@sandman25dcsss

 

AUG can do 3 single shots for 12 AP or 3 bursts for 15 AP. Or 3 single shots with 1 AIM level for 15 AP.

Average mercs have 12 AP, they will be able to take only 1 shot with a sniper rifle. Better mercs in the end game can have 15-16 base AP and yes, they will be able to take out 2 enemies per turn.

However the AUG will be able to take out 3 enemies per turn. Certain mercs like Ivan, Fox and Sidney can eliminate 4+ enemies per turn. Ivan gets 3 AP back on a kill, making him very potent with low AP cost weapons. Fox from stealth can kill one enemy and starts with full AP her turn, making it easy to kill 4 enemies on her first turn. Sidney gets extra AP at the start of combat.

As the game progresses and you get more AP, the AUG will be able to take out more enemies/turn than sniper rifles. The only downside is that you will need more ammo as you probably will be using bursts here and there.

In general sniper rifles are usually an overkill on the damage front, especially if you rely on stealth kills.

Edited August 1, 2023 by Melliores

[sandman25dcsss]

@Melliores

I think you do not use show CtH mod or my show stealth kill chance mod. Many enemies easily survive headshot from AUG, I see it because show CtH mod shows expected HP bar after shot.

You are right about more shots so it is possible to kill more than 2 enemies with AUG, I will enchant my AUG to take advantage of that and will use both weapons by my snipers switching as needed. Buns will be happy as she can switch weapons for free as far as I remember.

Edited August 1, 2023 by sandman25dcsss

[Melliores]

No, I am not using that show the chance to hit mod. Does it take into account potential crit hits as well ? For example add a yellow bar like it is available in Warhammer 40K Chaos gate?

The 5,56 weapons depend a lot on critical hits, hence the use of the red dot, hollow point ammo and the like. Buns and Kalyna actually make very good use of the AUGs and are in the same squad. 🙂

[sandman25dcsss]

51 minutes ago, Melliores said:

No, I am not using that show the chance to hit mod. Does it take into account potential crit hits as well ? For example add a yellow bar like it is available in Warhammer 40K Chaos gate?

The 5,56 weapons depend a lot on critical hits, hence the use of the red dot, hollow point ammo and the like. Buns and Kalyna actually make very good use of the AUGs and are in the same squad. 🙂

No, it does not take critical hit chance into account as far as I recall, though I am not sure. I can test it today by setting overwatch with Raeven (or how is the called, she is translated as Owl in Russian version, lol) and then checking if other mercs have better prediction because of guaranteed critical.

Edited August 1, 2023 by sandman25dcsss

[MateKiddleton]

The Commando is definitely better than it looks on paper.

[Jaywalker]

1 hour ago, MateKiddleton said:

The Commando is definitely better than it looks on paper.

Commando is an SMG that takes a GL, it is absolutely WILD.