Stats vs. perks

[Povok]

What are your thoughts about the perks/traits mercenaries have?

 

I'm thinking about how it's going to affect gameplay and defining characteristics of each mercenary. Are they going to obtain them through leveling? I'm a bit concerned about that. I believe I saw Gus having 12? Sure, more expensive mercs should be better, but not to the point where "rookies" with similar stats are useless compared to them.

Having few (fixed) perks ment you knew exactly who to hire for what job, because they had an edge in that field and you knew exactly who you would prefer to use, while enybody else could still do same job, just not that good (stealthy approach, night attacks, auto weapons...). With the ability to hoard perks through levels you just need a high level merc. 

[Elite77]

Perks need to be more complicated, and I would rework a lot of them to be more similar to JA2 1.13 (I don't know if 1.13 ones are different to vanilla ones, I imagine some are), however the reason why the perk system is a bit simple in my opinion is because the expectation is that you'll only get 10 level ups, which means you do have to limit the number of perks availible.

But of course there are other ways around this, like having perk books that give you perk points to spend, which are fairly rare, or having perks come from different places other than level ups, can be a consistent bar that fills up with XP, but the bar doesn't grow or get larger like the level up bar. Is it a bit ugly, sure, but does it solve the problem, maybe.

[Grim]

AFAIK, there are talents, speciality traits, psychological trait, and perks. (names?)
Talents are the special action or passive unique to a character.
Speciality traits are equivalent to JA2 perks (ambidextruous, auto weapons...)
Psychological traits are like in JA2 (hidden there), fear of insects, psycho, ...
Perks are the boni you can get each level (so 9 max?), from the perk table, with unlocks by attribute level (70/80/90) and number of perk points already spent in the line.

Now you can be more precise about what you want to talk about 😉

[Povok]

23 minutes ago, Grim said:

AFAIK, there are talents, speciality traits, psychological trait, and perks. (names?)
Talents are the special action or passive unique to a character.
Speciality traits are equivalent to JA2 perks (ambidextruous, auto weapons...)
Psychological traits are like in JA2 (hidden there), fear of insects, psycho, ...
Perks are the boni you can get each level (so 9 max?), from the perk table, with unlocks by attribute level (70/80/90) and number of perk points already spent in the line.

Now that's a nice piece of information. 

I was interested in a way Perks are granted/assigned/obtained. It makes more sense like you described it (tied to attributes rather than just level).

[ninjalex]

Nice Grim to be clear about what we are actually talking about. My opinion:

Traits are fun, and a part of what makes JA so special in my opinion.

I'm holding out on judgement of talents, but I'm a bit concerned that it's gonna be a bit too gamey (oh this one mercenary is the only one that can do this super generic thing that is a special talent).

Perks are gonna be interesting, but I'm afraid it makes it way too much RPG-y with special abilities unlocked through perks. I'd rather see the ability to develop traits, like for example x amount of kills during night time improves your night ops traits, stealthing around improves stealth. And that those traits were defined by sort of "novice, advanced, professional, expert, master"-skillbracket

Edited May 29, 2023 by ninjalex

[Elite77]

51 minutes ago, ninjalex said:

Nice Grim to be clear about what we are actually talking about. My opinion:

Traits are fun, and a part of what makes JA so special in my opinion.

I'm holding out on judgement of talents, but I'm a bit concerned that it's gonna be a bit too gamey (oh this one mercenary is the only one that can do this super generic thing that is a special talent).

Perks are gonna be interesting, but I'm afraid it makes it way too much RPG-y with special abilities unlocked through perks. I'd rather see the ability to develop traits, like for example x amount of kills during night time improves your night ops traits, stealthing around improves stealth. And that those traits were defined by sort of "novice, advanced, professional, expert, master"-skillbracket

Game-y, RPG-y.

This entire comment sounds like somebody who has no idea what they are talking about, and just want to make a comment for the sake of making a comment.

Perks need a rework to be more granular, and the times when you get a perk point should also be changed. Aside from that, there are no problems with this.

[Grim]

I am a little worried about mercs with level>1 since they will already have perks attributed. They can end up being very bad, or at least not what you'd want, where low level mercs are blank slates. You can put their perk points where you want while they level.
This is part of the gameplay, sure, but since low level mercs often have excellent attributes and low cost, they might be the only way to go, leaving the higher end mercs to the bin.
 

[Jaywalker]

45 minutes ago, Grim said:

I am a little worried about mercs with level>1 since they will already have perks attributed.

This has always been a problem with the mercs: they might have traits you don't want or even none at all.

It probably could have been handled better, e.g.: by reinventing the attributes a bit more instead, but it's not exactly a deal breaker if they can account for this in the pricing or at least make the presets reasonable for what the merc is known for.

[Image Miroir]

As JA2 was released a long time ago, they had to rethink the skills to introduce options like hacking.

They could also think about percentage going higher than 100%, and level beyond 10 (maybe 20). It could help to make a one-man army and eventually run/finish the game with a single merc.

But whatever, the game's done and it's fine for me like that. Waiting for JA3 to be released...

[ninjalex]

On 5/29/2023 at 12:50 PM, Elite77 said:

Game-y, RPG-y.

This entire comment sounds like somebody who has no idea what they are talking about, and just want to make a comment for the sake of making a comment.

Perks need a rework to be more granular, and the times when you get a perk point should also be changed. Aside from that, there are no problems with this.

Not surprised that you don't understand what you're reading. Thanks for your intelligent contribution.

And this is why you shouldn't huff glue as a kid.

[Elite77]

2 minutes ago, ninjalex said:

Not surprised that you don't understand what you're reading. Thanks for your intelligent contribution.

And this is why you shouldn't huff glue as a kid.

You assume there was something to understand. There was nothing. That's why you're not using quotes or explaining what you meant, because you realize how dumb your original comment sounded, like somebody who just wanted to write something in order to write something. No real substance or meaning.

Maybe if you stop being dishonest people in real life would like to be around you, ninjalex, you know? Just some good advice 😉

Edited May 30, 2023 by Elite77

[ninjalex]

9 minutes ago, Elite77 said:

You assume there was something to understand. There was nothing. That's why you're not using quotes or explaining what you meant, because you realize how dumb your original comment sounded, like somebody who just wanted to write something in order to write something. No real substance or meaning.

Maybe if you stop being dishonest people in real life would like to be around you, ninjalex, you know? Just some good advice 😉

You are incapable of comprehending a text that consists of more than two sentences. I've tried to bring out the teaspoon, but you still don't get it. So it's a waste of time. But hey, enjoy spewing your toxic shit all over this forum.

[Elite77]

Just now, ninjalex said:

You are incapable of comprehending a text that consists of more than two sentences. I've tried to bring out the teaspoon, but you still don't get it. So it's a waste of time. But hey, enjoy spewing your toxic shit all over this forum.

So you claim but your claims have so far had very little weight to them.

Just sounds like you're mad because I'm right and you're wrong, dude. It also sounds like you're deliberately non-engaging and not providing an argument for your side. Feel free to try to justify yourself, me and everybody else who's not a moron knows the truth.

[ninjalex]

On 5/29/2023 at 1:46 PM, Grim said:

I am a little worried about mercs with level>1 since they will already have perks attributed. They can end up being very bad, or at least not what you'd want, where low level mercs are blank slates. You can put their perk points where you want while they level.
This is part of the gameplay, sure, but since low level mercs often have excellent attributes and low cost, they might be the only way to go, leaving the higher end mercs to the bin.
 

Would maybe hamper late game if you prefer a certain play style and the elite mercs have sub optimal perks for how you want to play. Then I guess the developer has two options two circumvent the problem:

1. Mercs get hired at their current level with perk points available, and you can choose perks yourself first time around you hire them (removing the problem, but also makes character a bit of a blank slate which feels off when you're hiring high level mercs)

2. Mercs come with set perks, but include a "reset" option, but that would also feel a bit gamey, like how many times should you be allowed to respecc. Like some skill tree reset from WoW.

I'd probably prefer option 1. But we'll see how it works out when the game is actually released. Maybe the perks aren't that high impact.

Do we have a list somewhere of the perks? Are there any that looks to be...a bit game breaking so to speak.

[MateKiddleton]

No problem with perks or traits, but talents could be completely busted depending on what they do (extra movement for example is usually op in these types of games). Appreciate that talents give mercs uniqueness, but needs to be carefully balanced and not outside the realms of reality.

Edited May 30, 2023 by MateKiddleton

[ninjalex]

10 minutes ago, MateKiddleton said:

No problem with perks or traits, but talents could be completely busted depending on what they do (extra movement for example is usually op in these types of games). Appreciate that talents give mercs uniqueness, but needs to be carefully balanced and not outside the realms of reality.

It does seem like some key gameplay elements are locked behind perks:

 

[MateKiddleton]

Since perks are based on stat thresholds, and those particular examples are dealing with the interrupt mechanic, that seems fine. But probably depends if you can still interrupt with no remaining AP. Too hard to say without playing the game.

[Castle]

Stats are fine, perks can be reworked.