The portraits

[WILDFIRE]

Hello Devs and Jagged Alliance fans,

 

I wanted to create this topic to talk about the portraits in general. I think they are very important to transport the expressions of the mercs and how they feel. At the moment they are not animated so I thought about that decision. Maybe its a design philosophy, because you can see their expressions on the 3D models? Or are animated portraits too distracting in an 3D environment?

 

Overall I think they could be a little bit more alive so that you can see what the mercs think, feel and what the morale is. They could wink with their eyes, breath and move their head a little bit to make everything a little bit more immersive. If they could move their lips and talk that would be the next big step.

 

Also I think some portraits look very similar to the ones in JA2 (Buns, MD) but others are really different (Fidel). Maybe some could be improved. So what do you guys think?

[Biff]

I hope they don't animate the portraits, because it's just too easy to screw up. I'm a big fan of JA:Back in Action, but the portraits on there are ridiculous. They look like clones and move in sync at times... Scary stuff!

[Biff]

Sorry for double posting, but it doesn't look like there's a way to link a picture and then continue writing underneath it?

Another thing about non animated portraits is that they make modding so much easier. It takes way too much effort to change JA2 portraits. I've been modding/tinkering with that game for decades and I still can't make a decent portrait for it, whereas whipping up new portraits for games like Baldur's Gate or Fallout Tactics is extremely easy.

[Acid]

Like me some animated portraits, if they could do them for JA2 why not JA3?, maybe because they were 2d images and easier to animate?, but like Biff said, with modding maybe someone could make their own animated portraits.

[Acid]

Looking at the current pictures of the Mercs in JA3, all they really need is the mouth and eyes to move and forehead might wrinkle or drop when making an expression, don't really need the head to turn

Edited August 28, 2022 by Acid

[WILDFIRE]

7 hours ago, Biff said:

I hope they don't animate the portraits, because it's just too easy to screw up. I'm a big fan of JA:Back in Action, but the portraits on there are ridiculous. They look like clones and move in sync at times... Scary stuff!

Yes I am totally with you on that. If animated portraits are done the wrong way it will look really bad. At the moment I am not 100% sure if I myself really want animated portraits, because maybe it doesnt work in an 3D map with 3D models. So its maybe better to keep them as they are.

 

The current radio animation underneath the portraits is maybe the best solution. We are all just so used to animated portraits because of JA2 but if it looks scary and bad we dont need them. And as you mentioned the modding will be way easier for sure.  

[Flowable]

just wanted to share:

All JA2 characters remade at higher quality using AI! : JaggedAlliance (reddit.com)

spoiler alert nearly not all characters though

Edited August 28, 2022 by Flowable
not complete

[Acid]

They look good, now can you get them to move or are they just a static picture?

[PsyOp]

On 8/28/2022 at 1:53 PM, Flowable said:

just wanted to share:

All JA2 characters remade at higher quality using AI! : JaggedAlliance (reddit.com)

spoiler alert nearly not all characters though

They look amazing...way better than the official portraits I've seen for this game!

[FairyWilbury]

On 8/28/2022 at 7:53 PM, Flowable said:

just wanted to share:

All JA2 characters remade at higher quality using AI! : JaggedAlliance (reddit.com)

spoiler alert nearly not all characters though

 

The problem with this AI interpretation (same as with the recent craze of animating old photographs with AI) is that the personalities get lost. The faces look similar but give a different vibe due to slight differences in expressions etc. 

Re JA3 faces, as seen in the trailer, don't look outrageous - like in Back in Action, but still too generic for my taste. 

[WILDFIRE]

I think the JA3 portraits dont look bad but could be improved. When you compare JA2 Fidel with JA3 Fidel he does look very different. Buns and MD look better in my opinion. Overall the JA3 portraits are way better than BIA for sure but that were just generic clones. Maybe they could look more gritty and serious. Some are too colorful and cartoony for my taste.  

[LoboNocturno]

On 9/2/2022 at 7:54 PM, WILDFIRE said:

I think the JA3 portraits dont look bad but could be improved. When you compare JA2 Fidel with JA3 Fidel he does look very different. Buns and MD look better in my opinion. Overall the JA3 portraits are way better than BIA for sure but that were just generic clones. Maybe they could look more gritty and serious. Some are too colorful and cartoony for my taste.  

Totally agree they are a lil cartoony, but a lil colourful outfit suits to Vicky imo. The best solution would be when we put helmets, vets, weapon holsters and backpacks to our characters it should also display it on them in the game. It was well made in JA Rage.

Also to use camo kits so our mercs can look nearly completely green. Shadow will be like that already from default i guess.

[Kordanor]

Developers already confirmed that you will not see armor on the characters (and with that definitely not on the portraits).

That kind of makes sense. It makes it easier to differentiate the characters and gives them more personality. In addition it's easier to work with potentially 40 different 3D models.

[LoboNocturno]

1 hour ago, Kordanor said:

Developers already confirmed that you will not see armor on the characters (and with that definitely not on the portraits).

That kind of makes sense. It makes it easier to differentiate the characters and gives them more personality. In addition it's easier to work with potentially 40 different 3D models.

Oooh for truth ? Guess i missed this important fact, too bad though. It would bring much more realism if it could appear on the characters.

[Grim]

47 minutes ago, LoboNocturno said:

Oooh for truth ? Guess i missed this important fact, too bad though. It would bring much more realism if it could appear on the characters.

Well there are two schools of thought on this topic, those in favor of armor and gadgets appearing on the model and portrait, and those in favor of a recognisable model at all times.
Both have been there for a long time in this genre of games, I remember several discussions about it in Wasteland forums for example.
I for one was in favor of a WYSIWYG approach (Everything must appear on the model and portrait), but over time I felt more in more inclined to go to the other side. As other people already said, all characters end up looking the same, and loose their personnality, especially when you have to equip certain gear for the stats and not the looks.

There are several options possible taking a bit from both schools. Toggles to show or not, models but not portraits, a generic visible armor when one is equipped...
I guess I'm Ok with their approach, with detailled portraits and models, very recognisable and representative of the character.

[LoboNocturno]

9 hours ago, Grim said:

Well there are two schools of thought on this topic, those in favor of armor and gadgets appearing on the model and portrait, and those in favor of a recognisable model at all times.
Both have been there for a long time in this genre of games, I remember several discussions about it in Wasteland forums for example.
I for one was in favor of a WYSIWYG approach (Everything must appear on the model and portrait), but over time I felt more in more inclined to go to the other side. As other people already said, all characters end up looking the same, and loose their personnality, especially when you have to equip certain gear for the stats and not the looks.

There are several options possible taking a bit from both schools. Toggles to show or not, models but not portraits, a generic visible armor when one is equipped...
I guess I'm Ok with their approach, with detailled portraits and models, very recognisable and representative of the character.

Hmmm i dont really think all characters would look the same or similar just by having different kind of helmet & vests. It worked very well in Rage (including putting gas mash and shades etc was really cool).

 

So there will be many different gears (helmet, vests and backpacks...) but we they will not appear on us but we will imagine like its on them like a ghost. 😄 XCom 2 also made it very cool how you could edit your soldiers, the suit pattern, colour etc, it gave us lots of freedom and very nice looks.

 

As example we will be having a Ivan in JA3 that will be starting still the end of game with a WW2 Soviet officer uniform in tropical African weather. I dont know but its very odd to me. 😆 At least with some gear appearance we could make look the characters much more modern and bring more realism to the game. 

[WILDFIRE]

On 9/6/2022 at 9:19 PM, Kordanor said:

Developers already confirmed that you will not see armor on the characters (and with that definitely not on the portraits).

That kind of makes sense. It makes it easier to differentiate the characters and gives them more personality. In addition it's easier to work with potentially 40 different 3D models.

Yes I totally agree on that. Every merc should be unique with their own outfits and look. Too much visible armor would be contra productive, because if more mercs use generic armor plates and helmets the more they loose their visible identity. Also I think that many soldiers wear the bulletproof vests under their clothes anyway, so that you cant see them. Sure that doesnt count for heavy armor but I think a unique look is way more important. 

[Solaris_Wave]

The Jagged Alliance series, along with Silent Storm, are notable of this genre where each soldier under your control has a personality. It stands to reason that they should look unique on the battlefield and if they were all wearing the same armour and camouflage, they would end up looking too similar (kind of like in JA2 anyway when they all had camo on their skin). Having unique 3D models for every merc, which then have further versions depending on every type of clothing available in the game, would create a lot of work as well. Different height, build, gender, skin colour and every type of clothing is a lot of 3D models. I would be happy with just seeing the equipped gun model change, depending on what they are armed with.

It differs to games like the original X-COM trilogy, where they all looked generic male or female and only really looked different if their suit or armour changed. X-COM: Apocalypse gave them a portrait picture too but other than that, they all looked alike and had no in-game personality, except for what names you decided to give them (I always named them after the Colonial Marines in Aliens).

[WILDFIRE]

Guys dont get me wrong I love customization in many games and I hope we can change tons of weapons, items and so on, but to keep every merc special I guess the best way are unique outfits.

 

Maybe every merc can have multiple unique outfits divided in different categories. For example one classic outfit and one for jungle, desert or a special unique camouflage outfit. It would be nice if every outfit could have special stats so that you have to choose the best outfit for every environment. 

 

Shops and NPCs could also sell outfits or you can get them from special personal missions where some mercs tell their own little story.

[Wigen]

A well-known youtuber who does in-depth reviews of old classics finally got down to Jagged Alliance 2.

Edited October 28, 2022 by Wigen

[Solaris_Wave]

Great video! I was watching it with a grin on my face and fond memories of JA2. It was a big game and yet had no bloat, was well put together (I still think it looks good and don't mind the now retro graphics) and was from a time when no company 'suit' mentioned anything about micro-transactions, season passes, live services or kill streaks. Simply because those sorts of things didn't exist.

[WILDFIRE]

I played JA2 and watched so many JA2 gameplay videos lately and noticed how alive the conversations are because of the fine animated and detailed faces. Still to this day it is unmatched how everything feels alive and that your mercs operate in a believable world. 

 

So I red the first dev diary and saw the screenshot with the conversation and I guess just like the portraits the faces wont be animated. I think this could be a big atmosphere killer. JA2 feels so alive, because your squad talks directly to you with these fine detailed faces.

 

I think in the end just a stiff picture of a merc with voice acting cant transport the emotions enough. You must see the pain in their eyes when they get hurt or when they are happy or angry. That is so well done in JA2 and that is the reason why it is so special, because no other game does that!

 

So please devs think about the animated faces. Its so important for the atmosphere. The eyes and mouths need to move in some way so that everything feels alive. Stiff pictures cant transport the emotions.  

[LoboNocturno]

16 hours ago, WILDFIRE said:

I played JA2 and watched so many JA2 gameplay videos lately and noticed how alive the conversations are because of the fine animated and detailed faces. Still to this day it is unmatched how everything feels alive and that your mercs operate in a believable world. 

 

So I red the first dev diary and saw the screenshot with the conversation and I guess just like the portraits the faces wont be animated. I think this could be a big atmosphere killer. JA2 feels so alive, because your squad talks directly to you with these fine detailed faces.

 

I think in the end just a stiff picture of a merc with voice acting cant transport the emotions enough. You must see the pain in their eyes when they get hurt or when they are happy or angry. That is so well done in JA2 and that is the reason why it is so special, because no other game does that!

 

So please devs think about the animated faces. Its so important for the atmosphere. The eyes and mouths need to move in some way so that everything feels alive. Stiff pictures cant transport the emotions.  

%100 agree, in game the portraits MUST be LIVELY animated !!!!! And once they die the SKULL 💀 must come in, its a tradition since Jagged Alliance 1. PLEASE bring it, otherwise it will be a minus for sure.

[WILDFIRE]

Yes and I think it is necessary that you can see the wounded faces of the mercs with all their expressions when they get hurt. I know it is not easy to do that but its so typical jagged alliance.

 

I think if you use 2D portraits it cant be too hard to animate. 3D faces would be very difficult to create and to animate for sure but in 2D that must be possible. If its done the right way the pay off is totally worth it. Think about JA2 without the animated faces for all the characters. It would not be the same game anymore.   

 

[Acid]

I agree, the portraits look good they just need to be brought to life, get the eyes to blink and mouth to move when they talk, I'd prefer that over the sound bar underneath. But if its not possible, then we'll just have to put up with it.