Rough semi-realistic isometric of JA2 is better that 3D realistic graphics, and here's why

[trueman11]

At one point I was wondering why do old games like Jagged Alliance 2 and Fallout feel so much more immersive to me than modern realistic 3D games... And observing my experience, I have come to a conclusion that my mind just can not believe in what it sees, no matter how realistic the graphics are. Moreover, my mind resits more with the amount of graphical details provided, it even tires the mind to look at all those fancy spick and span modern graphics. But with JA2...it's like I get immersed into a story, like reading a book, it's like my mind fills in the blanks, and can feel the ground under my feet from the simplest sound of steps on a dirt road, or feel the grass touching my legs like if it's me walking through it, or it's me opening that door touching that handle, or gripping that weapon, or lying prone on the cold ground, hot sand, cool grass... I don't see small faceless figurines, I see full fledged people as if I am standing next to them; I am not reading that dialog, I am hearing it spoken into my ear by that person; those are not notifications I am reading, I hear those steps close to me; those bullets are flying next to me, those buildings are as real as if I can touch them right now... Small background sounds and subtle idle animations and all those details bring that isometric world to life, and I lose myself in it for 12 hours, 24 hours, for more...

I don't know what kind of process works there, but it's filled with that sense of wonder for me like when I was reading adventure books early in my life... And I don't know how it is for others, but this feel will always come to me when I enter the world of Jagged Alliance 2. And I think it's because immersion is not created by graphical detail, at least not for me, I need that space, those gaps for my mind to expand itself into them and immerse itself, lose itself in another world...

Share your impressions, perception, experiences of JA2, if you feel like doing so.) Cheers.)

P.S. Btw, I was just remembering a modern game that kind of reminds me of that feeling - it's called Sable. I didn't get a chance to play it yet, but check it out, if you're curious.)

Edited April 3, 2023 by trueman11

[Hendrix]

I know I mentioned in another thread long ago that nowadays I view games Baldur's Gate 1&2 and Fallout 1&2 more like interactive books than games. Being an avid reader (or atleast I used to be) filling out the "blanks" in the games came natural to me.

Back in the mid 90's to early 2000 me and a friend used to make up stories and narratives while we played Heroes of Might and Magic 2&3 togheter.

However I do not think I have ever been as immersed as you describe in your post above@trueman11. But sure I have often "trembled" with fear when an unexpected black shirt has suddenly turned up at point blank range from my merc or interupted them and unleashed hell upon my team.

But to be as immersed as you, well I both envy and feel sorry for you. Envy because of the level of immersion, but is it then at all possible for you to get any joy from a more modern game? I mean would you even need a new game? Would it be possible for any developer at any budget to succeed to give you that level of immersion? I do not write this as critique to you I just wonder if it is possible and what would be required?

Myself I have realised that JA2 1.13 with all it's moddability has spoiled me and in no way will we get a JA3 with all of it's features. Again in another old thread I listed what I require to view JA3 as a true successor to JA2 and I wont make that list again. To sum it up as short as possible without details I hope to see the strategical, financial and tactical gameplay we saw in JA2's strategical/laptop screen and a tactical combat that is a mix of JA2 and Silent Storm.

So far I stay optimistic but very cautious since even small deviation from vanilla JA2 core concept could spoil the game for me. And who knows, maybe I wont like JA3 when it is released, but a fair amount of companies have started to actually "fix" their products aftet release or maybe expansion shows up down the line. Maybe we get a revive of the franchise and a JA4 that is good? Maybe I win the eurojackpot lottery and I can finally buy the damn IP and create my own JA game! 😂

[Acid]

The old Jagged alliance games and fallouts had real life scenarios and elements while still looking and playing like a game, 3d and modern graphics does take away some of that game look and feel those older games had, modern Fallouts are a good example, but if done right, 3d can still be fun, lets hope JA3 gets it right. 

 

 3d though works in immersive style games like Red dead redemption, modern flight sims or multiplayer games like war of rights.

Edited April 4, 2023 by Acid

[DougS2K]

5 hours ago, Hendrix said:

I know I mentioned in another thread long ago that nowadays I view games Baldur's Gate 1&2 and Fallout 1&2 more like interactive books than games. Being an avid reader (or atleast I used to be) filling out the "blanks" in the games came natural to me.

Back in the mid 90's to early 2000 me and a friend used to make up stories and narratives while we played Heroes of Might and Magic 2&3 togheter.

However I do not think I have ever been as immersed as you describe in your post above@trueman11. But sure I have often "trembled" with fear when an unexpected black shirt has suddenly turned up at point blank range from my merc or interupted them and unleashed hell upon my team.

But to be as immersed as you, well I both envy and feel sorry for you. Envy because of the level of immersion, but is it then at all possible for you to get any joy from a more modern game? I mean would you even need a new game? Would it be possible for any developer at any budget to succeed to give you that level of immersion? I do not write this as critique to you I just wonder if it is possible and what would be required?

Myself I have realised that JA2 1.13 with all it's moddability has spoiled me and in no way will we get a JA3 with all of it's features. Again in another old thread I listed what I require to view JA3 as a true successor to JA2 and I wont make that list again. To sum it up as short as possible without details I hope to see the strategical, financial and tactical gameplay we saw in JA2's strategical/laptop screen and a tactical combat that is a mix of JA2 and Silent Storm.

So far I stay optimistic but very cautious since even small deviation from vanilla JA2 core concept could spoil the game for me. And who knows, maybe I wont like JA3 when it is released, but a fair amount of companies have started to actually "fix" their products aftet release or maybe expansion shows up down the line. Maybe we get a revive of the franchise and a JA4 that is good? Maybe I win the eurojackpot lottery and I can finally buy the damn IP and create my own JA game! 😂

And if all else fails, the devs did state there would be mod support so hopefully someone can come along like they did for JA2 and make some killer mods. A 1.13 mod in the future for JA3 would be blissful.

[Taurean]

I get that point. And i agree a lot with it. The more detailed a game becomes with it's graphics, the less you have to use your imagination, and thus the less work your brain has to do... and that takes a lot of the fun and challenge away.

But that's the challenge for the developers i guess. Make it interesting even with good graphics. And that's what i'm hoping for.

[Hendrix]

1 hour ago, DougS2K said:

mod support

Yupp, let us hope that the tools are powerful enough to be able to make what we want. They have stated several times that they are aware of the importance modding has had for JA2.

[Hendrix]

Forgot to mention in my first post in this thread that sure I do get immersed in the way that I can picture the mercs high fiving each other after a intense battle or thanking one another for a patch up or save from a nasty situation.

Still remember my second attempt at playing JA2 vanilla, I had hired Wolf and Grizzly (don't remember who else) and since I still didn't really know what I was doing, a couple of days into the campaign I had put Grizzly in a bad situation in one of the forest sectors west of Drassen, he'd taken 2 or 3 hits and several red shirts were closing in for the kill. I was able to get Wolf close to the situation and in quick succession dispatch the red shirts whit his shotgun. When the last enemy fell Grizzly stated: "I knew there was something I liked about Wolf!" That simple line of dialogue completely hooked me and to this day in almost every new JA2 campaign I start, I team the 2 togheter.

Magic, Ice and Blood are another group I often team together.

[trueman11]

On 4/4/2023 at 3:37 PM, Hendrix said:

But to be as immersed as you, well I both envy and feel sorry for you. Envy because of the level of immersion, but is it then at all possible for you to get any joy from a more modern game? I mean would you even need a new game? Would it be possible for any developer at any budget to succeed to give you that level of immersion? I do not write this as critique to you I just wonder if it is possible and what would be required?

It's interesting that you ask this. I do prefer new games with simpler graphics, or at least with not ones leaning towards photorealism. Like Sable that I mentioned, it's actually a pretty new game, but it maybe not modern in the graphical sense, it has it's own style and feel I haven't seen anywhere before. Another one with similar feeling of immersion that I've seen is Death Trash, and it too has old style graphics. I don't really know what it depends on, but the feeling seems to come from the game's world, not from graphics. I would venture a guess that the closer graphics come to reality, the more I subconsciously tend to "compare" the game's world to the real world around me.

On 4/4/2023 at 3:37 PM, Hendrix said:

Myself I have realised that JA2 1.13 with all it's moddability has spoiled me and in no way will we get a JA3 with all of it's features. Again in another old thread I listed what I require to view JA3 as a true successor to JA2 and I wont make that list again. To sum it up as short as possible without details I hope to see the strategical, financial and tactical gameplay we saw in JA2's strategical/laptop screen and a tactical combat that is a mix of JA2 and Silent Storm.

So far I stay optimistic but very cautious since even small deviation from vanilla JA2 core concept could spoil the game for me. And who knows, maybe I wont like JA3 when it is released, but a fair amount of companies have started to actually "fix" their products aftet release or maybe expansion shows up down the line. Maybe we get a revive of the franchise and a JA4 that is good? Maybe I win the eurojackpot lottery and I can finally buy the damn IP and create my own JA game! 😂

Good point about moddability. If that kind of moddability will be possible in JA3, I think all that devs have to do right is the core and the feel. From the comments to JA3 trailers on YouTube there's a lot of skepticism about the style and the tone, that it deviates from JA2's seriousness too much. I myself find the style a copy of oh-so-many modern XCOM clones I've seen, and that by itself fills me with skepticism. I don't find the style looks anything like JA, it's more modern XCOM-Phoenix Point-Mutant Year Zero. Not getting Jagged Alliance vibes at all.

 

[trueman11]

4 hours ago, Hendrix said:

Forgot to mention in my first post in this thread that sure I do get immersed in the way that I can picture the mercs high fiving each other after a intense battle or thanking one another for a patch up or save from a nasty situation.

Still remember my second attempt at playing JA2 vanilla, I had hired Wolf and Grizzly (don't remember who else) and since I still didn't really know what I was doing, a couple of days into the campaign I had put Grizzly in a bad situation in one of the forest sectors west of Drassen, he'd taken 2 or 3 hits and several red shirts were closing in for the kill. I was able to get Wolf close to the situation and in quick succession dispatch the red shirts whit his shotgun. When the last enemy fell Grizzly stated: "I knew there was something I liked about Wolf!" That simple line of dialogue completely hooked me and to this day in almost every new JA2 campaign I start, I team the 2 togheter.

Magic, Ice and Blood are another group I often team together.

That is the demonstration of the power of JA2, anyone who really have played it can tell numerous stories like this one, it's quintessential JA2 moment. No two combat situations feel alike, and it never gets boring or repetitive, at least for me it never got. The process of playing that game feels like a real story. For me it creates endless replayability. And I actually finished the game once or twice only, because the process was so fun I never ever really felt like rushing towards the win, ending the game. JA2 really does hook me, it's the reason I avoid playing it when I don't have LOTS of time.)

And 1.13 adds so much stuff and variation to the game...I still plan to try using the disguise mechanic to infiltrate Meduna and kill only the queen, without any territory takeover (except the first sector, obviously).

[trueman11]

19 hours ago, DougS2K said:

And if all else fails, the devs did state there would be mod support so hopefully someone can come along like they did for JA2 and make some killer mods. A 1.13 mod in the future for JA3 would be blissful.

They have to get the core elements and the tone right though. Right now the tone feels off to me.

[trueman11]

17 hours ago, Taurean said:

I get that point. And i agree a lot with it. The more detailed a game becomes with it's graphics, the less you have to use your imagination, and thus the less work your brain has to do... and that takes a lot of the fun and challenge away.

But that's the challenge for the developers i guess. Make it interesting even with good graphics. And that's what i'm hoping for.

Graphics don't have to be bad or even lowdef, they just have to be unique, have their own feel. Right now I get the modernXCOMclone feeling from trailers. It's a challenge to create something that stands out in the ocean of modern games. And I think they should try to make it look more like JA2, it will preserve the continuity-tone in the graphics, and will help JA3 to stand out among modern games. Of course there are many elements to a game's tone, like voicing and dialogue, sounds, etc. - have to get those right too. It's a challenge, but it is the challenge devs took upon themselves.

 

 

[trueman11]

@Hendrix Another thought about graphical realism in games, is that they all become alike. I thought about this after responding to comments here. Graphically realistic games tend to blend in together, they don't stand out, they're all alike in a sense. The same could be said about UI in games - it all is starting to blend in together, like all those modern XCOM clones - Phoenix Point, Mutant Year Zero, Gears Tactics, Phantom Doctrine, etc, etc... An example of a huge downgrade in UI style and loss of character and tone is Crusader Kings games - CK and CK2 each have their own unique unforgettable style, which CK3 has lost in my view, CK3's UI style is bland, boring and the game is losing it's character because of that.

So it is not that graphical fidelity is bad, it's that it tends to overshadow more important style and uniqueness, that give the game it's character. For example, many YouTube comments on the JA3 trailers are precisely about the game resembling something else, but NOT Jagged Alliance - the graphics, the UI, the dialogue, voicing, overall tone of the game - they all seem to get criticism because they are losing unique Jagged Alliance identity. (Music is very important too btw.)

After all, games are about unique world building, not about imitating the real world or worlds of other games. And Jagged Alliance 3 should feel connected to overall Jagged Alliance series, at least in it's core gameplay elements and tone-character-style. And what I see in trailers reminds me more of numerous XCOM clones, than Jagged Alliance. In fact Jagged Alliance 3 in trailers doesn't resemble Jagged Alliance at all.

P.S.: Here are some of the most immersive games I have played in my life: X-Com UFO Defense (UFO Enemy Unknown), Fallout, Gangsters 1&2, Nox, GTA 2, Hitman (Codename 47, Silent Assassin, Contracts, Blood Money), Majesty, Max Payne, Half Life, C&C Tiberian Sun, Operation Flashpoint, Uplink, Xenonauts, Neon Chrome, Medieval 2 Total War, Warcraft 3. And of course Jagged Alliance 2 (Wildfire and 1.13).

[Solaris_Wave]

I am going to give JA3 the benefit of the doubt and hope that it doesn't get influenced by the XCOM reboot.

 

But…

 

If I see just one…and I mean just one grey Sectoid alien running around Grand Chien, I'm going to fly over to Haemimont's offices and go full-on Chuck Norris on their asses.

[Hendrix]

16 hours ago, trueman11 said:

They have to get the core elements and the tone right though.

Absolutely. When this forum started there were many of us practicality screaming: DO NOT MAKE THIS XCOM RESKINNED TO JA! 

16 hours ago, trueman11 said:

Right now the tone feels off to me.

I know what you mean, personally I am still in the mindset of giving Haemimont the benefit of the doubt (like @Solaris_Wave wrote) when it comes to the tone of the game. From what little we have seen when it comes to gameplay I thought the animations looked a bit stiff, unfinished and a bit to cartoony but so far they have shown a very early build, maybe even just a proof of concept. 

Much like you stated @trueman11, JA2 has a very serious tone at it's base, it is a gritty story and narrative at heart, animations are in the realistic spectra rather than cartoon-ish, the same goes for the environment and colour palette. Arulco feelt like a third world war thorn country. The humor and silliness was then just a bit of sprinkle on the top. I really hope Haemimont can replicate that tone.

I have a very hard time to judge things before I see them as a whole, that's just who I am. So I am often able to ignore/not care about some smaller aspects I do not like, if a game as a whole is good. That does not mean that I eat whatever is served however, and to this day I have not played a single game that, to me, was perfect.

But I do think that we need to have realistic expectations of JA3, we won't get "JA2 1.13 3D with a new story". 

[SWi74]

4 hours ago, Solaris_Wave said:

I'm going to fly over to Haemimont's offices and go full-on Chuck Norris on their asses

I'll pick you up at the airport and film the whole Chuck Norris thing. Just let me know terminal 1 or 2. 😄

On 4/4/2023 at 2:35 AM, trueman11 said:

At one point I was wondering why do old games like Jagged Alliance 2 and Fallout feel so much more immersive to me than modern realistic 3D games

3D graphics have been trying to catch up to 2D for a long time. The most painful instances were the years when popular franchises transitioned. Heroes of Might and Magic is a perfect example. A third dimension was a lot to ask from both the hardware and the artists. Now it isn't. Watch the video about turning Diablo 2 from isometric to 3D for the Resurrected release. They built an instant switch between the old and new graphics. Using it, I noticed exactly what you are saying. I remembered the game looking exactly like the remaster, when it really looked a lot worse and only switching between the two proved that to me.

It's like cameras and HDR. How come my camera can't capture what my eyes are seeing? It has to combine multiple exposures to come close. Is the human eye that much better than a DSLR? It's actually the brain that does all the work instantly faking HDR - filling in the gaps between what is seen and how you think it would look up close and in detail.

Some games do amazing with very low detail. Journey, Pirates: Outlaws, Lara Croft: Go, Breath of the Wild... and of course the ones that go for 2D pixel art like Songs of Conquest which is NOT low on detail at all.

I don't think JA3 would suffer from realistic detailed 3D graphics, like Back in Action did. It's just one more indicator that it isn't the graphics that makes the game good or bad.

[Solaris_Wave]

Despite 3D being able to render well animated models and photomap real people onto those models, 2D is still easier to create. As long as you have a decent enough resolution (unless you are deliberately going for a retro, jagged pixel look), you can create a convincing enough sprite and let the player's imagination do the rest. I can think of games with beautiful sprites, such as Command & Conquer: Red Alert 2, Flashback, Crusader: No Remorse and No Regret, Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 and Fallout 1 and 2, to name a few. You aren't close up to the sprites and are either viewing from the side or isometrically, giving room for a bit of leeway as to how well detailed things really are. There is plenty of expression and animation frames in those games I mentioned and it was enough to immerse you in those games and just enjoy their graphics.

Taking those early Fallout games as an example, despite being sprites, you could tell that one of the outfits was based on Mad Max 2. The world was all sprite-based and conveyed a post-apocalyptic, broken down and hastily built on top society that was now the new and dangerous way of life. They were just as expressive as the 3D Fallout games of later years, with the exception that the 3D sequels had some wonderfully bleak wasteland visuals, the ability to see something in the distance and walk towards it, and that many of the animal-based enemies looked nastier in 3D. A good case with the latter situation are the Radscorpions and Deathclaws. Those buggers look more vicious in Fallout 3 and New Vegas than what the earlier games came up with.

I still really enjoy 2D games, especially ones with plenty of animation frames. Modern 2D games also get to feature coloured lighting, shading, higher resolutions and environmental effects that the 2D games of decades past didn't have the resources for.

Edited April 6, 2023 by Solaris_Wave