Why do (supposedly) wise scouts get into fights?

[wilku]

How come that smart (Wisdom 90+) mercs, who go SCOUTING (not fighting), end up mauled by animals or in shootouts with an enemy, and in 3/4 cases end up wounded? This is so annoying: 3hrs of scouting, 13hrs of healing...

The Wisdom stat is surely not showing how wise the mercs are...

[Solaris_Wave]

I have noticed this as well. There is supposedly some risk vs. reward but it happens quite often where your scout(s) get wounded and then need a lengthy healing process. I thought the whole point of reconnaissance was to check out the area, make note of its layout, study enemy activity but avoid contact with them. They shouldn't get into combat to the point of being wounded. It takes long enough to recon as it is, let alone need to be healed after.

They can't be very good scouts if they are getting into a firefight. Also, if they did, it would let the enemy know there are threats nearby. Plus, if your mercs can be wounded in the process, then why can't enemy soldiers receive casualties as well?

[Povok]

11 hours ago, Solaris_Wave said:

There is supposedly some risk vs. reward but it happens quite often where your scout(s) get wounded and then need a lengthy healing process. I thought the whole point of reconnaissance was to check out the area, make note of its layout, study enemy activity but avoid contact with them. They shouldn't get into combat to the point of being wounded. It takes long enough to recon as it is, let alone need to be healed after.

This. 

It's quite annoying when I try to coordinate/synchronize/optimize activities/operations and then this rather lenghty process causes more wounds to my mercenaries than actual firefights.

This is why I usually send scouting those mercenaries that have more of a supporting role and are usually staying back (if they are at all included) in firefights due to ther inefficiency/fragility.

[Biff]

Yep. And it makes no sense that the game thinks MD and Barry are better scouts than Shadow and Mouse!

I think the whole scouting system needs reworking.

[Povok]

Nah, i'd say it just needs adjusting and it would be much beter.

For example:

1. Remove the option of them being wounded. Instead just have them retreat with less intel and info why they retreated.

2. Use cumulative value of more attributes to determine proficiency of a scout (hp + dex + agi + wis) or at least 2 (agi + wis).

 

On this point I must add that including more attributes in the fomula to determine proficiency in other operations would also give more "balance" to the game.

Examples of (not so) more complex fomulas: Repairing: (DEX + 2xMEC)/3, Training: (WIS + 2xLDR)/3, Crafting (WIS + DEX + 3xEXP)/5...

[Biff]

Oh yeah it should calculate agi + wis for sure, and maybe even check if the merc has any stealthy traits.

And higher chance of fights if you send a psycho out scouting.

[D13]

I think scouting needs to become more valuable, and by that I mean making the game harder without scouting.

For example, instead of showing enemy numbers and types in nearby sectors by default, that information could be revealed only as the result of a successful scouting operation. If that operation was performed by mediocre scouts, show basic information, like ranges ("5-10 enemies in this sector"), and exact numbers and details only if scouts are good at scouting. It would not require constant scouting throughout the game - one can successfully take sectors without knowing what to expect, which can even be more fun - but for certain key battles, one would want to scout, and that's where scouting would shine.

Similarly, why show enemy routes by default - instead, scouting could reveal shipment routes (because scouts discover the tracks left behind by frequent shipments, and mingle with the locals to gather intelligence about usual shipment schedules, and so on).

In JA2, the strategic map would initially show enemy groups as question marks, and only reveal their numbers after reaching adjacent sectors. JA2 also left you in the dark about where a group of enemies was headed. JA3 shows the precise composition of enemy attack squads right after their departure, including their ETA, even behind enemy lines, all without scouting. So after JA3 gives me all that valuable information for free, I can spend resources on scouting, often only to learn that a map has a "flanking opportunity" and a "vantage point", which I could have figured out myself by looking at the map.

[VidarNL]

1 hour ago, D13 said:

I think scouting needs to become more valuable, and by that I mean making the game harder without scouting.

For example, instead of showing enemy numbers and types in nearby sectors by default, that information could be revealed only as the result of a successful scouting operation. If that operation was performed by mediocre scouts, show basic information, like ranges ("5-10 enemies in this sector"), and exact numbers and details only if scouts are good at scouting. It would not require constant scouting throughout the game - one can successfully take sectors without knowing what to expect, which can even be more fun - but for certain key battles, one would want to scout, and that's where scouting would shine.

Similarly, why show enemy routes by default - instead, scouting could reveal shipment routes (because scouts discover the tracks left behind by frequent shipments, and mingle with the locals to gather intelligence about usual shipment schedules, and so on).

In JA2, the strategic map would initially show enemy groups as question marks, and only reveal their numbers after reaching adjacent sectors. JA2 also left you in the dark about where a group of enemies was headed. JA3 shows the precise composition of enemy attack squads right after their departure, including their ETA, even behind enemy lines, all without scouting. So after JA3 gives me all that valuable information for free, I can spend resources on scouting, often only to learn that a map has a "flanking opportunity" and a "vantage point", which I could have figured out myself by looking at the map.

I mainly use scouting to find hidden stashes. Sometimes it's nice to see a vantage point right away, but a good look at the sector would tell you that too.

 

I agree that you really shouldn't know much info about shipments and enemy groups way off on the other side of the map. Scouting could/should show troups in the area, maybe a day away.

[Solaris_Wave]

8 hours ago, Biff said:

Yep. And it makes no sense that the game thinks MD and Barry are better scouts than Shadow and Mouse!

I think the whole scouting system needs reworking.

I haven't played the game enough to employ Shadow yet but that seems nuts that he is less capable at recon than a field medic. My current team is my I.M.P., Mouse, Buns, Livewire, Barry and Fox. I previously had M.D. and Nails but I had to let their contracts end as I was lacking money at the time. My current gameplay loop seems to be struggling to push forward enough to make money (I only have one mine and it says it is nearly empty), while spending the majority of my time healing everyone, who are always tired and/or wounded, due to battle or reconnaissance. Meanwhile, the Legion militia just fires away happily in full-auto, rarely missing and never worrying about ammo.

That means that by the time everyone is healed, days have gone past and contracts are due to be renewed, which I might not have the money to do.

[sandman25dcsss]

I tried to create a mod which removes the wounds outcome, but it is harder than I expected, probably will try again some day. But at least I learned that only average wisdom matters for amount of gathered intelligence and also created a mod which prevents mercs from exploding on revealed mines.

Edited August 25, 2023 by sandman25dcsss

[sandman25dcsss]

After more research I see max stat is important too, it determines which events are possible and their chance while scouting. But I still cannot find where all those events are described, maybe some events even use different stat (not wisdom), code supports it.

[Solaris_Wave]

On 8/26/2023 at 3:29 PM, sandman25dcsss said:

After more research I see max stat is important too, it determines which events are possible and their chance while scouting. But I still cannot find where all those events are described, maybe some events even use different stat (not wisdom), code supports it.

Maybe a failed recon attempt could mean that no information was collected as the scout was spotted and drew fire (which is then shown via text). That should be enough as the time taken to perform the Scout action would still be the same, success or failure. Maybe a high failure result could be implemented which then creates the chance of wounding the merc but it shouldn't be the norm. Instead, it should act as a deterrent to trying to use that merc to scout as they are not careful and quiet enough.

[sandman25dcsss]

11 hours ago, Solaris_Wave said:

Maybe a failed recon attempt could mean that no information was collected as the scout was spotted and drew fire (which is then shown via text). That should be enough as the time taken to perform the Scout action would still be the same, success or failure. Maybe a high failure result could be implemented which then creates the chance of wounding the merc but it shouldn't be the norm. Instead, it should act as a deterrent to trying to use that merc to scout as they are not careful and quiet enough.

As far as I can see wounds are not related to failed scouting attempts, wounds can happen as outcome of successful scouting.

[Solaris_Wave]

1 hour ago, sandman25dcsss said:

As far as I can see wounds are not related to failed scouting attempts, wounds can happen as outcome of successful scouting.

Which is annoying in its own right. Not only is it a pain to have to spend a long time healing after spending a long time scouting, you are punished for scouting in the first place.

"How dare you successfully scout out the area! We must wound your merc to teach you a lesson!" 🤨

[sandman25dcsss]

1 hour ago, Solaris_Wave said:

Which is annoying in its own right. Not only is it a pain to have to spend a long time healing after spending a long time scouting, you are punished for scouting in the first place.

"How dare you successfully scout out the area! We must wound your merc to teach you a lesson!" 🤨

From realism perspective it makes some sense though.

[Uncle Nick]

IMO, look at it as just gameplay RNG. Everyone knows you always plan for the worse, something can always go wrong. You could have US Marines go on a training Ops in Australia, then crash their helo killing 3 highly trained aircrew and injuring a bunch of marines. RIP.