GODSPEED

Okay.. I've noticed some of us have had many ideas, reserves, worries, hopes and dreams for Jagged Alliance 3.. I would like if this topic could become a more "concise" location to keep track of what are each and everyones idea of what is absolutely NECESSARY for them to consider Jagged Alliance 3 a game they could imagine being a success (in terms of holding the Jagged Alliance name, not talking financial success here). For myself, the bare minimum would have to start with Mercs individual personalities. Without this, the game loses one of its core unique features and simply turns into another turn-based tactical game. Another feature I deem an absolute NECESSITY is the same CLASS-LESS system as in Jagged Alliance 2. I would really HATE to see locked classes with perks and levelling as the modern xcom (and derivatives) have turned into. A Strategic Layer ("World" Map) AND a Tactical (Combat) Layer are also a must! While I also prefer a turn-based system, I've played many real-time with pause and also systems like 7,62 High Calibre and Back in Action.. I'm okay with those systems. As long as you can pause to study your situation. I understand having real gun names in modern games often require many licensing agreements, which can be costly. That said, I would rather a wider variety of weapons with an accurate look, ammunition and realistic behaviour versus fewer guns but real name. I have many wants, but I'm open to new ideas.. or I'm trying to be anyways.

As much as I am sincerely trying to stay positive here. I don't think I feel anywhere as positive or "okay" with it as you guys do. Maybe it's in my mind alone? In any case, the more I refer to the video and look at the "actual" gameplay section, the further away from Jagged Alliance it feels. I feel like I'm looking at a skin or mod for Phoenix Point. Phoenix Point isn't bad... it's the only game in the past decade that I pre-ordered and played before release... I just find it decent at what it does with it's theme and setting. I simply don't want to see Jagged Alliance in that game. Honestly guys, I REALLY DON'T want to see Jagged Alliance go down that leveling, perk and class system like new xcom and phoenix point have. Having mercs "locked" to classes and weapon/gear would seriously piss me off above and beyond! That to me, would kill the game and warrant a refund. I mean, I could take overwatch and other changes, even if those wouldn't be my favorite.. but perks, classes and unlocks. NO THANK YOU! Custom abilities? Yeah, I mean I could wrap my head around it if it was abilities that more than one merc might have. Yes, I agree @Kordanor, mercs in Ja2 did have some unique "abilities", like Shadows Camo... but the "Abilities" we're very passive bonuses, not unique features that only applied to one merc. I guess that's what makes it different. They are all humans who can do most tasks, but simply at varying levels of speed and chances of a positive outcome. These new xcom-style classes lock characters out of everything but what they are allowed. In my mind, changing this roleplaying system that Jagged Alliance is famous for, would be like spitting on it and giving it the finger. I should be able to hand over a stick of TNT, a Dragunov or a lockpick to ANY merc and watch them succeed or fail at my own leaisure!

I'm not even certain how I found out about it. I think it just happened to be somewhere in YouTube because Jagged Alliance is a term I've used a few times here and there. It's being covered "extensively" by the Bear's Pit facebook.. but I found that out AFTER finding JA3 reveal video.. as I seldom visit facebook. I think a few more ppl came to these forums, but so far, there's been no input from the devs. So.. no answers or promotion from them on steam, social media or discord and family to come join their own forums. Maybe they figure that while they are on vacation, these forums would populate and it would give them plenty to look at when they get back to work? At this point, as much as I enjoy visiting and posting here... as you mentionned earlier, this forum will die out. It's already toned down so much.

...graphics aren't the end all be all. Sometimes you would care way more for a new story, new characters and new world map with all the same mechanics, engine and graphics. I guess that's the feeling I have when I want a Jagged Alliance 3. I don't want a re-imagining, a remake or a clone of this or that... I just want to play Jagged Alliance 2, but with new secrets, challenges and discovery to go through.. and with fresher graphics. Even with mod support... you have to have modders who care enough about the base product to want to invest their own time. Looking at the work that was put into 1.13 alone, not to mention some pretty good mods out there... these are things that have been worked on for years and years. Those modders are familiar with the JA2 engine, they might not want to split that time with a new engine and new problems to solve. Jagged Alliance 3 NEEDS a VERY strong foundation if modding can even make it better. Having done some pretty intensive modding of Skyrim (well over 200 mods and running stable), it doesn't really make the game better, because the writing is childish; the plot, the story and the "dungeons" are all very shallow... modding can go so far. Another good example would be 7,62 High Calibre; it's a gun nuts wet dream. Litteraly! You carry individual magazines and clips and can load various bullet types in the same magazine.. and some major mods have added MANY MANY weapons, fixed bugs and other technical issues. The game is still a real stiff dried out piece-of-bread. You could literally wack someone on the head with it and it would hurt.. no amount of modding will make that game "easier" or better to play. Mods can make something good a little better, but they cannot make something bad become good. And I won't settle for acceptable when it comes to the Jagged Alliance name. Jagged Alliance Back in Action is as acceptable as acceptable gets, it's okay as a tactical wanabee-isomteric game, but it failed at being a proper Jagged Alliance.

Look, I'd just like to say, that we don't really agree on some of these points.. but I appreciate we can keep a civil discussion.. argument.. without it turning to the way "debates" turn out on Steam. So 👍 to you for keeping a level head with me.. I know I can be a little abrupt. 😇 Well, if you are satisfied with changes such as the ones you mention.. I am happy for you. Personally, I do not find those changes acceptable for Jagged Alliance 3. Why not simply create their own IP? Why try to revive a series that has some pretty hardcore fans that have been dissapointed to hell and back, but not learn that changing too many elements will lead to the same? Is it because they wan't to create the next "popular" turn-based game, but they also want to drag in old-time fans of the series as a freebie? Yes, Jagged Alliance was way more 'basic' compared to it's "sequel". But, Jagged Alliance 2 didn't CHANGE mechanics, they simply added elements and complications. Just like 1.13 didn't change anything, other than ADD technical details, information and options for higher difficulty and re-instated features that Sir-Tech rushed and put aside or decided to disable due to fears the game being too difficult. I have a very deep feeling, from all the previous attempts at reviving the Jagged Alliance name, that changing, removing or replacing many of the established elements of Jagged Alliance 2, will simply alienate the real fans. That's just what I think.. whether I am right or wrong.. I can't know. Honestly, the points you make aren't bad, or wrong.. I respect your opinion; but I also am of the opinion that as long as the game is not complete and released, I would rather fight, push, argue and debate for something that is AS CLOSE AS POSSIBLE to Jagged Alliance 2, or with even more complexities.. not simplifications. In my mind, accepting and agreeing, even to minor changes, will lead a company to be "lazy" and simply go on with whatever plan they've decided (if they even care about what we think?). Maybe the game will have completely different mechanics, and I will really enjoy it.. but maybe I will just want to go back to JA2 1.13.. (and at least I can play that more and it runs just fine). I will always push for more complexities, more realism and more depth because that is what I love. Just like I sincerely wish X-Com would get a REAL remake/remaster.. especially X-Com Apocalypse.

I feel younger thinking about CS pre-source engine!! Apart from "online" back when I found the bear's pit and 1.13, I had never even heard of anyone I knew who even had knowledge of that game. I myself had picked that game up from the discount bin in very early 2000's. Chances are a heavy gamer might have a fleeting memory of a magazine article, or a demo? I had figured if we like our comments on the videos, the comment becomes more popular, maybe helping find other JA players in those comments. 🙄 to think of trying to gain traction for JA3 by commenting about JA2 on YouTube. What's wrong with us? 🤣

I posted a comment on this video:

It was just meant as a little humorous sarcasm. 😘

Xmas 2022 right?

Haha! I've been spoiled with 1.13 and forgot about the Warsaw Pact 7.62 from standard JA2. 🤣 Even so, Jagged Alliance had some interesting weapons for a small pc game from 1999.

Good idea! Should we maybe post the suggestion on the same video? I'll go check out his channel this evening after work.

As much on you as on them. Not only does seeing an enemy soldier fumble his grenade and take out his friendly a unique occasion to laugh at in a battle.. the same can be really frustrating on your end. This unpredictability creates a new level of drama and "fun". I don't really mean hit chances... those are also displayed in Jagged Alliance 2 1.13 whether you play with the NCTH or OCTH. Those are always useful, because they are the estimation that merc makes for your to judge your attempt. But even there, the Hit Chance isn't a dice roll, there is the mercs attributes that also come into play that can lead to a wrong chance-to-hit. The mercs experience, level & marksmanship will affect a mercs display of the chance to hit, meaning Flo's 85% chance to hit is EXTREMELY unreliable compared to Tarballs 85% chance to hit. The new systems are flat percentage with no other layer to take into account. Interrupts are a fundamental part of the Jagged Alliance series! I'm not sure how to explain it better than, it's a true RPG mechanic, a statistic and comparison between characters on your screen that they managed to blend in so well with the skills of each merc that the feeling of interrupts is absolutely natural! When in life do you say: "okay, I am now going to save time to watch this area....?" Sir-Tech managed to create an turn-based RPG with REFLEX mechanics... it feels like when you play paintball, airsoft or any other type of similar sport where you can tell the experience and speed a person has by how quickly they react to encounters. I'm sorry, but overwatch is a board-game feature! Something to simplify the system to avoid rpg/stat calculation. I have nothing against overwatch, but I don't understand why it is "okay" to accept a lower standard from JA3 when we have a deeper and more advanced system in a game made in 1999. They aren't creating a new IP here... they are calling it JAGGED ALLIANCE 3. The name should reflect the legacy it is trying to continue. Sidestepping is a normal movement to use... I've never really felt like it was odd to use it.. don't use it, and you wil so often get slapped in the face walking across a window or a corner. It's basic tactical movement! And sidestepping doesn't make you ignore being interrupted. I would like you to explain what you mean when you say that most ppl won't use interrupts... how can you not use it? it's an automatic feature coded into the game. It's among the most unique turn-based features in turn-based games. It relies on RPG stats and comparisons between characters that negotiate the interrupt. It's a system that ressembles many RPG calculations. I'm not certain what you mean... weapon damage, weapon range, are all in Jagged Alliance 2. They all have quantifiable stats.. but the RPG mechanics create an organic feel because not everything boils down to the simplest mathematics like in modern xcom and derivatives. Why is the simplification of a great system such a problem? Because when you remove elements of what made Jagged Alliance such a great game... you lose the core of what it is. Jagged Alliance isn't only funny mercs, it isn't only a world map to conquer locations, it isn't only interrupts or rpg stats... it's everything combined that made it unique. At that point, why are they even making a Jagged Alliance game? The I.P. is not known for it's simplistic take on TBS, but it's complexity and multi-layered systems (and personality, but that's not being discussed here).

Going through the gameplay part of the trailer that was revealed on September 17th, there is one thing that was really bothering me and for some reason, I couldn't put my finger on it until today. I was overwhelmed with mixed feelings of excitement, surprise but also wariness and disappointment. Pretty sure most understand that. One of the "features" that reminded me why I really dislike the modern twist on turn-based mechanics, is the predictability of everything. I'll TRY to be brief (that never works for me) and I will only try and point to a few glaring issues I have when comparing what I see in the gameplay from the perspective of new vs old ja/xcom. PREDICTABILITY was the word of choice; what made this come to mind, is the dual-grenade throw of Fidel, the movement and (yet to be really proven, the overwatch features) featured in the trailer. FIDELS DUAL-GRENADE THROW Old X-Coms & JA2 had a way of hidding gameplay mechanics to make the game feel organic and "natural". Almost ANY action you take could be met with a wide range of unpredictable elements. Take for example, the grenade throwing. In Jagged Alliance 2, handling grenades was not something you'd necessarily trust Biff with. Why? Because many elements come in the way of how accurate the placement of that grenade would be. That UNPREDICTABILITY leads to you THINKING and having to MAKE A CHOICE. Is it worth it to hand over a grenade to a merc with poor strength, dexterity and agility to maybe see him fumble that grenade into a friendly merc, or completely miss his mark, maybe leaving him standing in the middle of the laughing redshirts? You NEED to pop a smoke grenade so you can go stick a regen into Raven, who's down to 1 HP. But the smoke ends up not hiding her from the laughing redshirts. Raider hates his job and you! Why did you give the task of throwing that grenade to Flo? She nearly took her eye out in the process! You took a chance. You made a willing decision and took a chance and regretted it. UNPREDICTABILITY goes WAY beyond the percentage on that chance to hit when you fire a gun. It's from taking any action, like moving, detecting a mine (or not), throwing a grenade, kicking in a door, punching a redshirt...Situations and choices that can turn to your advantage or disadvantage in a single mistake, from either side. Now, let's take the modern method of throwing a grenade; you see EXACTLY what squares will be affected, you know EXACTLY where it will land. You take away all REASONING, THINKING, GUESSING, LEARNING and CHANCE out of the equation. You already KNOW how much damage it will make, you already know everything. You lose that organic feel and "natural" feeling that comes with different people taking the same action. Fidel throws 2 grenades that show two circles that overlap in the middle.. all assumptions are that whatever enemy that overlap lands on, takes double damage. There is no skill, no learning, no experience (from your own mistakes) to corect future choices you make. Everything is calculated and handed over to you with the precision of a board game. MOVEMENT AND OVERWATCH In Jagged Alliance 2, to move, you try and calculate to the best of your abilities, the effects of moving from A to B. How is that "UNPREDICTABLE"? Because, you can be interrupted, you can spot an enemy, or you can notice something that will make you change your "plan". In modern mechanics, you KNOW where such and such enemy is, you KNOW who has an overwatch active. There is no guessing, taking a chance, no "judging" the situation. In the modern system, you know exactly up to where you can move, and you already are aware of everything around you. Nothing feels natural or organic; it's like a board game. Another feature in modern turn-based games I really dislike is the overwatch feature. This mechanic relies almost exclusively on the chance-to-hit, marksmanship or accuracy stat. You KNOW that the first enemy to step into that cone of vision will be shot at. Regardless how good that enemy is. The amount of times this feature can be abused because you can let the enemy come pile up to your overwatch cones when you feel like playing defensively. It requires no deep thought, or management. In Jagged Alliance 2, you do not know what enemy you will face, you do not always know if that enemy will avoid an interrupt or not. Higly experienced mercs have a great chance to interrupt redshirts and cheap enemies.. but less experienced mercs can and will get in precarious situations if you do not manage them properly. This UNKNOWN creates such great battles, firefights, drama and situations that in turn can come and change your plan or your strategy. Maybe you thought these last few nemeies were going to be dead easy, in turn you end up with 2 mercs on the brink of death. Now, you can either decide if you leave them behind to rest up, or take a few days break to treat them... or do you chance them on your next assault? All this UNPREDICTABILITY, all these unknown factors are part of what makes Jagged Alliance such a great game.. also why the old X-Coms need a REAL remake/remaster... wanting to shoot that enemy, but missing and taking down a support structure, watching floors crumble down. Damaging property you were supposed to NOT damage. There is nothing wrong with the predictable nature of turn-based mechanics... But Jagged Alliance is great because it contains so much unpredictability (among many of its unique features) that make this kind of game shine as a video game. What makes me a little sad from the gameplay trailer is a feeeling that instead of building on what made Jagged Alliance 2 such a unique game, they are working out how to dress up modern xcom mechanics into Jagged Alliance clothing.. ...and, no! Knowing the difference between an AK-47 and an AKM is not what makes a real fan of Jagged Alliance... that's the superficial part of the game. The core, the mechanics and the personality is what makes Jagged alliance.

So far, from the trailer, the merc icons and the AIM recruitment page do not show animated faces. Everything seems static. Your guess is as good (or bad?) as mine. I don't want to be the "negative" person here, but I don't think we can expect that. Look, I know this trailer is still not the complete product (well, I hope so anyways).. but currently playing JA2 and (unfortunately) comparing what I see in the trailer... I feel like the more questions we ask about things we loved or were unique from JA2, lead to some negative response and as much as I want a JA3.... these questions and the answers I think inside.. lead me to feel the same as for pretty much every previous JA attempt. 😔

That is where they stamp part of the serial identification numbers/code on AK's. Year of manufacture as well as factory stamp should be found there. Maybe they hid some date code... but that is doubtful, as I can't recall where I read it, but they mentionned they are working on the game and they don't want to give a date.. I would guess they simply replicated (or made up) the writting they had on the replica they used for the artwork.

+1 Demos seem to have been making a comeback in the last couple years! 👍

PLEASE NO! Modern gaming is already gone so deep down the drain... we don't need early access crap from a big dev/pub! Let Haemimont Games make a good polished game and release in a complete and unbroken state.

So far, from the trailer, it seems to be this kind of Action Point system. I guess we'll need to wait on the devs to know more details.. one "fear" I have, is a turn-based system where once you've taken an action, like and attack, you then cannot move... regardless of AP system. Not sure why this would be.. but hopefully, they've come up with a complete freedom AP system. Hey, if you do not like calculating AP's anymore, that's ok. What matters is to have fun playing what you like... I still like calculating them 😇. A certain cover indication is useful. That, I have to admit. I do think there is a fine line between cover indicator and cover system though. Because of the grid based system in JA2, it could sometimes be dificult to know what is in cover or not due to angles and corners. I would rather this game not turn into a hunt for cover acknowledgement like in the modern xcom games. Some judgement and common sense needs to come into play as well.

The Hospital and the Training Base were pretty invaluable, as they greatly increased the speed of said services. Were they necessary? Nah.. I've played a few times without even bothering with them. But that's kind of the fun of it too.. whether something is worth it to YOU or not really. This is why they can't have too many of these or else it becomes a nightmare to defend too many locations. But I think it's important for the setting, the theme, the immersion and just for roleplay to have services and facilities that aren't ABSOLUTELY necessary to keep at all cost.

I ENJOY full realistic weight, equipment and pouch simulation. Having played a good amount of Airsoft, getting all kitted out was a big part of the fun for me. But while that is what I'd like, I think it would be more realistic to expect at least JA2 style inventory with basic weight limitations. I do like how some games put it with weight levels; where you do have a hard limit, but you also have various other levels of weight that will give negative aspects like lowered agility, movement speed, etc...

CEPHEUS PROTOCOL Real-time, tactical, zombies... a good time-killer I'm planning on trying out soon!

What kind of facilities or sectors on a map, that create strategic locations to capture, defend, destroy or infiltrate, would you like to see? So many questions... so many devs on vacation... Enjoy your time off! ...'cause when you get back... there will be hell to pay! (Well, maybe not "hell", but these forums and us crazies). Anyways, it's as much a question for devs as a question to get our minds thinking and just dreaming; While I was looking at the screenshots, I noticed the one that has the huge cannon.. While I think this is flavour decoration for theme and setting, I would like to think that this could potentially be a very important location. Maybe this is a cannon you could use to "soften" certain areas before you assault them. Imagine a well fortified sector that would be extremely hard to capture/assault, but if you had this artillery sector, you could launch a few shells, maybe softenning up some defenses, breaching a few walls, eradicating a few redshirts... giving you brand new options when assaulting that sector that was previously too hard. I also enjoy being assaulted (the pain baby!! 😍) as much as assaulting, so I think having strategic locations that provide a benefit create that extra layer of strategy, as you don't want to lose them. One of the most interesting locations I seriously enjoyed as much for the idea behind it as the creepy feeling it gave, was the Tixa prison sector in JA2. I still remember the first time finding that prison.. that feeling was incredible! So much mystery, drama and it was just such a neat area to go through.

Actually, just repeating a comment from the Map Editor post.... @SWi74 mentionned random sam sites... ...which, naturally, is a great idea! This got me thinking of Modern Vehicle SAM. You get a vehicle that could "slowly" move on the map. Those could easily become "missions" on their own as you could have the option of either destroying of trying to capture them. Damage them too much, and they become immobilized, creating a location you would have to defend. Moving it around would cost a good amount of fuel, and it would move "slowly".. it isn't a Jeep.. and it's a strategic asset you have in EXTREMELY short supply. The country could eventually replace a few (also not quickly) so it's not like you can completely control a whole country with a few mercs you know. Mobile SAM would give you that randomized location problem to solve, creates a goal/mission for you to achieve in any way you see fit.. and it also feels realistic at the video game level.

JA2 had a few map elements that were randomized each "New Game"... like the location of Skyrider, Hamous, Hick Farm, etc.. I always liked that feature, but I would prefer well designed maps vs generated maps. I've never played a game with generated maps that felt well designed. For a game like JA, I feel the most important for map design, is giving enough options for tactical decisions. Enough to feel like the next time you play, you will have a few other options how you approach a combat situation. Can I swim around to the dock? Can I climb the fence? Cut the fence? can I blow up that wall? Climb that roof? or maybe I just want to sit around and snipe from that treeline? Can I litter the road with mines and attract the redshirts with some fireworks? 'New-xcom' is the type of game that almost requires generated maps, because the maps are so generic and plain... in JA, the map NEEDS to make sense compared to what the world map looks like; the road HAS to be at the right place, this base needs to make sense, know what I mean? BUT! I love the idea of having a different sam site.... BUT..... 2021. I would prefer MOBILE SAM VEHICLES 🤪 Hey, if you're going to randomize the location.. what better AND realistic than actual realistic SAM mobile vehicles? (naturally, it won't be moving around like an agile jeep!!!)

Yes, they wanted to keep Flo. In exchange, you could pretty much take all the stuff in their crates without them opening fire. If you found that farm early in your game, it has the potential to upgrade your squads armament up a notch, especially if you we're still with basic cheap smg's and pistols.