Wounds should be more serious.

[CersaisAdvocate]

From playing the game I have to say that wounds feel much too harmless for both your mercs and the enemy. In JA2 I was used to bandage every wound asap as unbandaged wounds always had bleeding and debuffed your mercs considerably. Also wounded enemies where much less of a danger. At the moment there seems little difference in the performance of a soldier with full HP compared to one with 1 HP left.

[brato]

I agree. Especially for the enemies. An almost dead enemy is just as deadly as a strong one.

[D13]

Yes, it is one of JA3's most unfortunate omissions. During JA2 combat it had a tremendous effect on tactics, both for attacks (should I target the wounded enemy and kill him, or target the healthy enemy and wound him?) and defense (cover was much more important). I like that we can target more body areas, but something like permanent bleeding (even if just 1-3 HPs per turn, unlike the "real" bleeding) or an AP reduction would already add a sense of urgency to wounds. Alternatively, effects like "inaccurate" or "slowed" could last until bandaged.

I guess it would have made JA3 too easy, as enemies hardly seek proper cover or even lie prone. Combined with the relatively small maps that makes them easy to hit, which under JA2 rules would diminish their main strength: having lots of APs to run and attack).

The current implementation would have been good as part of the "forgiving mode" option though. Spiraling down from "slightly wounded" to "less able fend off enemies" to "severely wounded" to "immobile last stand" to "dead" could be quite harsh in JA2, although it added a lot.

[5Cents]

Again i remember me on the sometimes unforgiving JA2.

Sometimes one of my mercs bleeded to death, cause my stupid mercs just forgot some 1st Aid Kit and in Vanilla it wasnt possible to craft your one bandage.
And on the long way back to Drassen Airport Depot, there was no cure..ups,..

In JA3 almost deadly wounds for mercs felt like more a scratch to me. Might be also the reason why i found JA3 so easy, even in hardest difficulty level. You just dont need an Doc, because every Merc can easily heal himself and it didnt take so long. In my Game, there werent any occuarances of enemy offensives, so i could stay in just occupied sectors for a while, as long as needed to heal my one merc.

For enemy soldiers, hm, it appeared to be the same like in older ones. One good placed heatshot and the enemy was dead. On body its a bit different, thats okay. Otherwise it would been way too easy. Too less enemy and too stupid.

Edited August 10, 2023 by 5Cents

[sandman25dcsss]

@5Cents

Custom settings mod allows to increase number of enemies. People fight 30 enemies on starting island.

Edited August 11, 2023 by sandman25dcsss

[Elder III]

I would like a game setting where Wounds (when you lose enough Health to have a "number" of wounds after the battle) would not heal on their own, but required medical treatment by a competent Medic (sat view Operation). If you don't treat the wound you have a small % lower stats, perhaps 10% per Wound until treated?

[Mordante]

Maybe having wounds causes you to have a minus (amount depending on wound level) to attacks/skills would make them more consequential.

[5Cents]

2 hours ago, Elder III said:

I would like a game setting where Wounds (when you lose enough Health to have a "number" of wounds after the battle) would not heal on their own, but required medical treatment by a competent Medic (sat view Operation). If you don't treat the wound you have a small % lower stats, perhaps 10% per Wound until treated?

I dont wont to citate a well known JA2 Mod..:D
..but for a JA3 one, it could be an option simply increase the time-cost to heal a wound properly. So healing wounds could take a looong time, a few ingame-weeks or so.
What also could be imaginable, would be an permanent health lowering of health points, received from a certain amount of wound. That would be feeling fair and unforgiving and also more realistic, for me.
Alternatively, these permanent wounds could also only been healed by dedicated Docs, plus beeing in a hospital setting.

But most player wont like that and it wouldnt feel like original JA any longer, but getting closer to that popular JA2 Mod, again..: D
But again, i would like it.

Edited August 11, 2023 by 5Cents

[sandman25dcsss]

Making wounds more significant would encourage using stealthy snipers even more. No, I would like wounds completely removed and mercs heal to 100% HP automatically at the end of each fight. Then I would happily use shotguns, double anacondas etc.

[Raeven]

18 minutes ago, sandman25dcsss said:

Making wounds more significant would encourage using stealthy snipers even more. No, I would like wounds completely removed and mercs heal to 100% HP automatically at the end of each fight. Then I would happily use shotguns, double anacondas etc.

That would be undercutting the mechanic that has always distinguished JA from all other RPGs ever made.

Lack of instantaneous healing is the basis of why the game plays as it does and how it makes you feel like fights are dangerous and meaningful.

Take that away, and it's just another RPG like many others.

Edited August 11, 2023 by Raeven

[5Cents]

40 minutes ago, sandman25dcsss said:

Making wounds more significant would encourage using stealthy snipers even more. No, I would like wounds completely removed and mercs heal to 100% HP automatically at the end of each fight. Then I would happily use shotguns, double anacondas etc.

So you actually wanting the exact opposite direction, the topic is asking about..😅

Sometime, when Editor will arrive, you could solve your problem with upgrading enemys health bar and armor and eventually increase Docs effectiveness while decreasing wounds your mercs will get. Or lowering weapon-stats, for your case of interest, sniperrifles.

[sandman25dcsss]

1 hour ago, Raeven said:

That would be undercutting the mechanic that has always distinguished JA from all other RPGs ever made.

Lack of instantaneous healing is the basis of why the game plays as it does and how it makes you feel like fights are dangerous and meaningful.

Take that away, and it's just another RPG like many others.

I wonder if you played other RPGs. Most of them are similar to JA in this regard i.e. they don't autoheal you at the end of map. You really overestimate uniqueness of JA. Even XCOM2 makes you skip next mission(s) for heavily wounded or tired soldiers, lol. JA is for casuals because it allows you to heal almost dead mercs with meds between fights, xcom2 does not have this type of healing or at least it is rather limited and requires putting first aid kits in grenade slots.

Don't get me wrong, I like the game, but I am shocked to see so many design mistakes like making players waste time because mercs are tired (other games properly use this mechanic to encourage using other soldiers which makes zero sense in JA because of hire contracts and travel speed while JA does it for "realism") or making players waste time by "repairing" weapons which does not ever require any components, just time.

Edited August 11, 2023 by sandman25dcsss

[sandman25dcsss]

31 minutes ago, 5Cents said:

So you actually wanting the exact opposite direction, the topic is asking about..😅

Sometime, when Editor will arrive, you could solve your problem with upgrading enemys health bar and armor and eventually increase Docs effectiveness while decreasing wounds your mercs will get. Or lowering weapon-stats, for your case of interest, sniperrifles.

Don't worry, I have long term plans 🙂

My next game with be melee solo, then another game with pistols and shotguns only, then next game without stealth kills due to my mod etc. 

[Biff]

Quote

JA is for casuals because it allows you to heal almost dead mercs with meds between fights, xcom2 does not have this type of healing or at least it is rather limited and requires putting first aid kits in grenade slots.

That's not true at all. In JA2 it was always Dead is Dead mode. Almost every wound caused bleeding, and even a chance to cause permanent stat loss. Healing wounds took time and supplies which were limited, but you also had to maintain your battered gear during this, and hope you have enough ammo for the next fight, and watch for enemy patrols while you're healing.

You couldn't just retreat to your state of the art spaceship to be healed, repaired, resupplied like you can in XCOM...

Yeah JA3 is much more forgiving than JA2, but being wounded is still fairly punishing.

[sandman25dcsss]

2 hours ago, Biff said:

That's not true at all. In JA2 it was always Dead is Dead mode. Almost every wound caused bleeding, and even a chance to cause permanent stat loss. Healing wounds took time and supplies which were limited, but you also had to maintain your battered gear during this, and hope you have enough ammo for the next fight, and watch for enemy patrols while you're healing.

You couldn't just retreat to your state of the art spaceship to be healed, repaired, resupplied like you can in XCOM...

Yeah JA3 is much more forgiving than JA2, but being wounded is still fairly punishing.

As punishing wounds do you mean +50% damage and 30 grit in heavy armor which make wounds beneficial instead of disadvantage? People play solo melee merc who intentionally stays wounded all game. It is really an excellent idea provided how long it takes to heal a wound.

[Remi1987]

1. Bleeding should happen more often, with normal ammo as well on a let's say 25% change compared to these specific bleeding causing hollow-ammo.
2. And some de-buff effects that last 3-5-7 days after the wound is inflicted, so the 'heal over time' factor.

[CersaisAdvocate]

8 hours ago, sandman25dcsss said:

Making wounds more significant would encourage using stealthy snipers even more.

Well that is not completely true because if wounds would affect the enemy in a similar way when in JA2 wounding 3 enemies could be better in some situations when killing two.

Silenced sniper dominance has little to do with wounds and more with too little burst damage and the unrealistic efficiency of silencers.

[Biff]

2 hours ago, sandman25dcsss said:

As punishing wounds do you mean +50% damage and 30 grit in heavy armor which make wounds beneficial instead of disadvantage? People play solo melee merc who intentionally stays wounded all game. It is really an excellent idea provided how long it takes to heal a wound.

Nope, I didn't mean that oddball build. Running around half-dead, constantly managing your wounds, having fewer APs due to said wounds, and having to perfectly setup each turn to get 30 grit? That's a terrible way to play.

I said "fairly" punishing. Meaning you're fairly punished for making mistakes, and those mistakes can stack up and snowball to disaster, especially if your squad leader dies.

[5Cents]

Sinking morale, being constantly not getting healed, should also add an extra bonus of difficulty..could be go so far, that mercs would quit after a while and not willing to come back again..😅

But however, that would be far to difficult to implement, unfortunately.

[Beak]

Increase effects of wounds and healing time. Make snipers require hire marksmanship AND dexterity to make them viable, plus high AP costs.

[sandman25dcsss]

2 hours ago, Biff said:

Nope, I didn't mean that oddball build. Running around half-dead, constantly managing your wounds, having fewer APs due to said wounds, and having to perfectly setup each turn to get 30 grit? That's a terrible way to play.

I said "fairly" punishing. Meaning you're fairly punished for making mistakes, and those mistakes can stack up and snowball to disaster, especially if your squad leader dies.

You probably missed it was solo game, player used just IMP whole game. Melee can reliably kill 4-5 enemies every turn especially if having +50% damage, nothing else can.

[sandman25dcsss]

2 hours ago, 5Cents said:

Sinking morale, being constantly not getting healed, should also add an extra bonus of difficulty..could be go so far, that mercs would quit after a while and not willing to come back again..😅

But however, that would be far to difficult to implement, unfortunately.

-1 morale is almost nothing when comparing to +50% damage, but wait, psycho gets +1 morale instead!

Just check HP and wounds when the guy kills Major:

And here are the skills at that point:

Edited August 11, 2023 by sandman25dcsss

[Biff]

1 hour ago, sandman25dcsss said:

You probably missed it was solo game, player used just IMP whole game. Melee can reliably kill 4-5 enemies every turn especially if having +50% damage, nothing else can.

Gonna need video proof that someone can reliably kill 4-5 enemies with melee every turn.

Such a build is not possible without heavy savescumming, but that pretty much defeats the point of actually dealing with wounds and managing resources. 

You could probably finish the whole game with nothing but groin punches if you savescum enough, but that just means the PLAYER is casual, not the game.

[sandman25dcsss]

13 minutes ago, Biff said:

Gonna need video proof that someone can reliably kill 4-5 enemies with melee every turn.

Such a build is not possible without heavy savescumming, but that pretty much defeats the point of actually dealing with wounds and managing resources. 

You could probably finish the whole game with nothing but groin punches if you savescum enough, but that just means the PLAYER is casual, not the game.

The guy uses dagger, that's 3 AP per attack, imp has perks to give free movement after every melee attack and the knife deals +50% damage due to having 5 wounds. There is a perk which converts every melee attack into critical. Don't forget you can prepare +5 AP by guard after tactical retreat. Solo character kills a few enemies, then retreats and hides, then kills again. Also you can just put your melee guy adjacent to several enemies and they can be killed by overwatch if corresponding perk is present. Today I killed 3 guys with machete despite it uses 6 AP and 2 more kills with knives, got achievement for 5 kills during one turn from single merc.

Edited August 11, 2023 by sandman25dcsss

[brato]

2 minutes ago, sandman25dcsss said:

The guy uses dagger, that's 3 AP per attack, imp has perks to give free movement after every melee attack and the knife deals +50% damage due to having 5 wounds. There is a perk which converts every melee attack into critical. Don't forget you can prepare +5 AP by guard after tactical retreat. Solo character kills a few enemies, then retreats and hides, then kills again. Also you can just put your melee adjacent to several enemies and they can be killed by overwatch. Today I killed 3 guys with machete despite it uses 6 AP and 2 more with knives, got achievement for 5 kills during one turn from single merc.

I've got to give that a try on my next playthrough.