I'm deeply disappointed and here's why

[Mancho]

No, definitely a failure. Not in sales, no - everything will certainly be good there - but as far as the spiritual heiress of JA2 is concerned, it is obvious that yes.
.
Cartridges appeared, but where are the magazines?! This is one of the main mechanics of the series - messing with ammunition and magazines!
.
Clown clothes instead of helmets and bulletproof vests - seriously?! Not displaying ammunition on the characters is a complete failure.
.
Where is the branched inventory with a lot of cells, pockets, compartments? At 1.13 we went so far, and here we couldn't even reach the level of the original 1998 JA2 - shame! Unloading and all kinds of pouches with backpacks simply disappeared as a class - it's just a shame.
.
General inventory, seriously?! I.e. if one team member is 50 meters away, he will be able to use a grenade launcher from the slots of another team member?! In any case, it looks stupid.
.
Destructibility. She was shown in the first trailer just the same, so maybe she will come back. Probably, the system has not been finalized and it was temporarily cut out. I hope. Otherwise...
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Are night operations expected at all? The feeling that the change of the time of day here will only affect the entourage, but it will have no effect on the abilities of the fighters.
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The inventory does not even provide slots for tactical headphones, glasses, PNV - how is that at all? I.e. it will be possible to rely only on visual perception, and sound is all in the past. Perfectly! Yes, you go with your JA3!
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Perks are another clown idea, just like the experts in Battlefield 2042. No, I don't deny that sometimes it can be realistic - there are people with unique talents, but what they did in the game... This breaks the balance and tactical realism, turning JA3 into a cross between XCOM and Commandos.
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An all-powerful cold weapon is like the cherry on the cake. Previously, knives and hand-to-hand combat (by the way, where is he?!) they solved only a narrow range of tasks, and now cold steel has become more deadly and more effective than small arms. Are we still talking about JA3 or is it a new part of Dark Souls?!
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And did you also remove the delivery of weapons to the airfield ordered from Booby Ray's store? Just fine. Actually, why do you need it, if knives decide everything now!!! And there are not so many slots to be found in the new "inventory".
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The enemies, though, began to move more smoothly, but their mind, it seems, has not increased at all. And this is at best. Do they even react properly to corpses? And, it seems, they are now like aliens in XCOM - those in bandanas - presumably in bulletproof vests, and in hats - only in helmets, well, enemies with white paint on their faces are the simplest - without armor at all. Ah-ha-ha, it's just the BOTTOM!
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A quarter of a century later (just think about it - 25 years have passed!!!) there is no progress in the continuation of the series! Vertical gameplay is there, dungeons seem to be there too, but why not attach the mechanics of dragging corpses? Just take what is already in the JA2 and 1.13 MOD and transfer it to a new game - no one demanded more from you, but you went into full casual.
.
Remember my words: you will not take away many fans of the XCOM series (the first two parts of the UFO of the 90s were beautiful, and the new ones are miserable and I'm talking about them), but you will also lose the trust of the army of JA2 fans, eventually giving birth to a hybrid that may sell well, but definitely will not become a cult, without bringing you the possible glory.
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I am deeply disappointed. JA2 + 1.13 MOD + AI - I'm coming to you again.

[Lunokhod]

1 hour ago, Mancho said:

but you will also lose the trust of the army of JA2 fans

100%

1 hour ago, Mancho said:

A quarter of a century later (just think about it - 25 years have passed!!!) there is no progress in the continuation of the series!

100%

1 hour ago, Mancho said:

I am deeply disappointed.

same

[Solaris_Wave]

The game is still in Beta and since the recent previews, while more people have joined the forums, Haemimont themselves have been quiet, which I assume means they are busy.

Some of the Beta looks good but I am less happy about the inventory system as it looks far too basic and streamlined. I went into detail about the inventory system in my own thread, Weapon Characteristics & Other Suggestions, some time before the Beta was even shown.

The perks I am not so sure about. Some might be okay but others sound like super powers.

Those two above issues are probably too late to change but other concerns I have, which have been posted elsewhere, could easily be fixed.

[Grim]

Lunokhod, is it your second account?

If this is what a JA fan sounds like, I don't want to be part of it. And no, we're not an army, just a handful of old guys.

Anyway,
 

Quote

General inventory, seriously?! I.e. if one team member is 50 meters away, he will be able to use a grenade launcher from the slots of another team member?! In any case, it looks stupid

You can reload from the team inventory, yes, but not take from another merc's inventory far away, no (AFAIK).
 

Quote

Destructibility. She was shown in the first trailer just the same, so maybe she will come back. Probably, the system has not been finalized and it was temporarily cut out. I hope. Otherwise...

Destructability is in.

Hand to hand is in. Cold weapons are useful but you have to expose a lot. IMHO they are more usable than in JA2, where it was nearly impossible to do anything without dying or savescumming.

Well, you have your perfect game with JA2 1.13 + AI, go for it. Don't expect a new game to transfer all features from that, or it would be... JA2 1.13 + AI, and nothing else. A new game has to change things to work. Some changes can be wrong, yes, but there has to be some anyway. And as much as I love JA2 +1.13, it suits a minority of the possible audience, it would be a nonsense for a company to do that. They can get some inspiration be some of its features, not remake the whole thing indentical.

[anon474]

I agree with most of these criticisms, I don't think the developers are ill-intentioned per se, but I do think JA3 will be significantly different to JA2, and will not have as much "serious strategy" features, like NVGs and an absence of unique and unrealistic abilities.

I agree with perk system, I think perks are more than fine, but the perks should work like they worked in flashback, +5% accuracy when aiming with a certain weapon type, this kind of stuff. Grit and freemove system is imo a very different thing to what the original JA intended.

[Solaris_Wave]

I am happy to see perks which, as @anon474 says, gives a boost to stats but some others seem somewhat cartoonish, such as throwing two grenades at once, or better at knife throwing after getting drunk. It is too early to say though, without seeing a larger amount of them.

[anon474]

22 minutes ago, Solaris_Wave said:

I am happy to see perks which, as @anon474 says, gives a boost to stats but some others seem somewhat cartoonish, such as throwing two grenades at once, or better at knife throwing after getting drunk. It is too early to say though, without seeing a larger amount of them.

There's a perk like that?

But as far as I know, a lot of perks are actually not standard +1 to this stat or +1 to that stat, they are things like +15 grit or +10 free move. i.e. all of these systems that imo, don't need to exist.

[Xeth Nyrrow]

I agree that the perks seem to be poorly balanced on the over powered side from what we've seen. Free movement in a game like this is such a huge advantage that it's hard to balance unless it's made very small (like 1 or 2 squares at most). Hopefully modding will allow these XCOM style perks can be changed to other things which are impactful but not game breaking.

[votadc]

Isn't martial arts from Ja2 a perk or a trait aka a perk you get from the start rather than leveling up? A mercenary with 100 Dex and Str won't be able to do Kung fu without It while a mercenary with lower stats can because has the trait. This was introduced in Ja2, in Ja1 you didn't have combat perks but traits were Psycho, blind and forgetful.

Edited April 27, 2023 by votadc

[Image Miroir]

@Mancho I understand you. I believe, once the game will be completed, that some of your inventory will be addressed but I'm not naive enough to believe it would be fully addressed.

Nonetheless, as you said, a quarter century later JA2 achievement remains a challenge. Now I'll ask you if we should start from JA3, and positively motivate the development team to get something quite good now and then get our dreams fulfilled in a couple of years, or ruin the project with (legitimate) critics and wait another quarter century to get what we consider a decent sequel of Jagged Alliance?

This project is too close to the end to get significative changes. The best solution, the wise solution, is to organize to get the JA4 we want.

Maybe we can structure ourselves to work on a scope statement, and identify all points we consider key. From our exchanges and discussions about it we can make a document, and then use it to pressure future development teams. If you, or anyone else is interested lets work on "Jagged Alliance Next"...

[Reloecc]

2 hours ago, anon474 said:

 

 

1 hour ago, Xeth Nyrrow said:

 

 

1 hour ago, votadc said:

 

About perks.. I've just created 

 

[Reloecc]

46 minutes ago, Image Miroir said:

Maybe we can structure ourselves to work on a scope statement, and identify all points we consider key. From our exchanges and discussions about it we can make a document, and then use it to pressure future development teams. If you, or anyone else is interested lets work on "Jagged Alliance Next"...

Maybe modded JA3 could save us.. but it's far away.

[Reloecc]

7 hours ago, Mancho said:

Remember my words: you will not take away many fans of the XCOM series (the first two parts of the UFO of the 90s were beautiful, and the new ones are miserable and I'm talking about them), but you will also lose the trust of the army of JA2 fans, eventually giving birth to a hybrid that may sell well, but definitely will not become a cult, without bringing you the possible glory.
.
I am deeply disappointed. JA2 + 1.13 MOD + AI - I'm coming to you again.

JA3 is going to bee too complicated for XCOM fans (no CtH, too many unit states /bleed, flank, pindown, tired, etc./, too much in between combats). But it's too shallow for JA2/1.13 fans (no inventory management, heroic perks, action bar, cartoony, arcade element /like squad inv, endless ammo/granades, fixed weapon mods/).

Edited April 27, 2023 by Reloecc

[anon474]

2 hours ago, Xeth Nyrrow said:

I agree that the perks seem to be poorly balanced on the over powered side from what we've seen. Free movement in a game like this is such a huge advantage that it's hard to balance unless it's made very small (like 1 or 2 squares at most). Hopefully modding will allow these XCOM style perks can be changed to other things which are impactful but not game breaking.

I don't think they're poorly balanced, they're just not what I expected (either JA2 vanilla or JA2 1.13 AIMNAS has perfect perks, some perks are survival related, some are sniper related, some are SMG related, etc) and they have freemove and grit systems in them that I can't say I'm fond of.

If you choose to include freemove and grit maybe...but I think these are weird systems that are unrealistic and aren't necessarily in best place in JA.

[anon474]

8 minutes ago, Reloecc said:

JA3 is going to bee too complicated for XCOM fans (no CtH, too many unit states /bleed, flank, pindown, tired, etc./, too much in between combats). But it's too shallow for JA2/1.13 fans (no inventory management, heroic perks, action bar, cartoony, arcade element /like squad inv, endless ammo/granades, fixed weapon mods/).

I agree. I think complexity is a gradient, and they made JA3 about 20% less complex and deep than JA2 1.13, while also making it a lot less realistic separately and adding things like grit and freemove.

[Reloecc]

Just now, anon474 said:

I don't think they're poorly balanced, they're just not what I expected (either JA2 vanilla or JA2 1.13 AIMNAS has perfect perks, some perks are survival related, some are sniper related, some are SMG related, etc) and they have freemove and grit systems in them that I can't say I'm fond of.

If you choose to include freemove and grit maybe...but I think these are weird systems that are unrealistic and aren't necessarily in best place in JA.

Yes.. this. Every piece of unrealism makes this game more Xcom than JA. Herbs, perks, inventory, combat states. And it's not what I was looking for. Premises of current systems are really ok.. but for a tactical feeling, there can't be unrealistic simplification.

[Tzg]

So I am reading through this forum/community and one thing really struck me. You guys want this game to be JA2 1.14 not really JA3.

I hate, hate with the vengeance, JA2 1.13. I play JA2 couple of times a year - hell on some stage I kept an old laptop only for this purpose - and besides Fallout 1 and 2 it is only other game I keep playing since it was released. But I do hate 1.13 - this broke the game. It attempted to turn a funky, funny, yet strategic and dark game into some sort of realistic drivel. No, thank you, JA neither 1 (fec…ing electric/monster magical eel’s anyone???) nor2 ( aliens??? And pretty much everything else!) supposed to be realistic or real. 
 

Finally - yeah JA3 looks and feel different- but it supposed to be different. It is not JA2 it is certainly not a crappy edition of crappy 1.13 - it is a different game and for once, first time in 25 years it is not a pile of horse shit from the outset. Is it good? No idea. But one can hope. 

[Reloecc]

29 minutes ago, Tzg said:

So I am reading through this forum/community and one thing really struck me. You guys want this game to be JA2 1.14 not really JA3.

I hate, hate with the vengeance, JA2 1.13. I play JA2 couple of times a year - hell on some stage I kept an old laptop only for this purpose.

It's very true.. many people here would love to see 1.13 remade in a new engine. There is many arcade games xcom fans may play. But there is ONLY one deep realistic tactical (up to the point) "drivel" we do play. We hoped for a second one. I don't see it anyhow bad.

And about keeping an old laptop.. JA2 1.13 has many settings you can tweak to make it very similar (maybe same, I haven't tried) as vanilla. But with benefits of changed resolutions and rendering engines. No 1280x720 laptop needed 🙂.

 

38 minutes ago, Tzg said:

No, thank you, JA neither 1 (fec…ing electric/monster magical eel’s anyone???) nor2 ( aliens??? And pretty much everything else!) supposed to be realistic or real.

I didn't get this part at all.

[chr_isso]

I'm a big fan of Vanilla JA2 and couldnt get too used to 1.13 as well. I played and finished 1.13 but return to Vanilla more often - even though Vanilla bores me too since i finished it too many times.

 

So I really love to see JA3 as it is, but with more options to customize it.

Make the squad inventory optional for beginners, make merc inventory bigger/ja2 like for experienced players.

It has so much potential and all I can hope for is mods, if Vanilla JA3 should disappoint. But until then - go Devs, go. It's in your hand!

[Tzg]

1 hour ago, Reloecc said:

It's very true.. many people here would love to see 1.13 remade in a new engine. There is many arcade games xcom fans may play. But there is ONLY one deep realistic tactical (up to the point) "drivel" we do play. We hoped for a second one. I don't see it anyhow bad.

And about keeping an old laptop.. JA2 1.13 has many settings you can tweak to make it very similar (maybe same, I haven't tried) as vanilla. But with benefits of changed resolutions and rendering engines. No 1280x720 laptop needed 🙂.

 

I didn't get this part at all.

I know. But it felt better on old laptop. I used 1.13 just for the resolution but I still hate it. 
 

I understand where r you coming from - but that’s not JA or JA2. 1.13 is a different game. I don’t want or need 1.14. I want JA3. 🙂 

 

as for the part you didn’t understand - in JA first one - when you tried to cross/swim through the body of water there was a chance you’ll get attacked by a huge eel which if you didn’t had knife (equipped) there was big chance your merc would just die. In JA2 you would fight against well I should have used word mutants (Bloodcats and  Crepitus). Don’t even talk about magic trees in JA1 😉 

This game was never intended to be serious, realistic, deep tactical game. Never. 1.13 made it - but it is a mod. 

 

[Hendrix]

Just to clarify. Sure there are people who asked for a game with all the features of 1.13.

But for the most part people has been asking/wishing/hoping for a true Jagged Alliance game and not a reskinned XCOM2/Wasteland 3.

[Tzg]

2 hours ago, Hendrix said:

Just to clarify. Sure there are people who asked for a game with all the features of 1.13.

But for the most part people has been asking/wishing/hoping for a true Jagged Alliance game and not a reskinned XCOM2/Wasteland 3.

Yet all I am seeing in the forum here is ‘why there is no to hit %’ and ‘why it isn’t 1.13’ and then which feels really schizophrenic- ‘we want deeply realistic game’ but with ‘% to hit’ which is realistic my a…

[Hendrix]

45 minutes ago, Tzg said:

Yet all I am seeing in the forum here is ‘why there is no to hit %’ and ‘why it isn’t 1.13’ and then which feels really schizophrenic- ‘we want deeply realistic game’ but with ‘% to hit’ which is realistic my a…

Sure, the last months there's been a lot of people asking for such things. My comment related to the overall attitude among most of the people that has been around here since the forum started.

[Tzg]

5 minutes ago, Hendrix said:

Sure, the last months there's been a lot of people asking for such things. My comment related to the overall attitude among most of the people that has been around here since the forum started.

Fair enough. I am cautiously optimistic about this project. Not holding my breath after all disappointments over the years but I am optimistic. 

[Hendrix]

8 minutes ago, Tzg said:

Fair enough. I am cautiously optimistic about this project. Not holding my breath after all disappointments over the years but I am optimistic. 

A wise approach I would say and one I share. 🍻