I'm deeply disappointed and here's why

[Hendrix]

@Tzg Have you tried the Stracciatella mod for JA2?

Personally I think it's a good mod to get the higher resolutions etc. into the game whitout going 1.13.

[Claudius33]

I second what @Hendrix wrote about the Stracciatella mod.

Edited April 28, 2023 by Claudius33
accuracy

[Tzg]

3 hours ago, Hendrix said:

@Tzg Have you tried the Stracciatella mod for JA2?

Personally I think it's a good mod to get the higher resolutions etc. into the game whitout going 1.13.

Nope. First time hearing about it. Will try it out soon! 

[elenhil]

On 4/27/2023 at 7:03 PM, Grim said:

Lunokhod, is it your second account?

Most probably. All the hallmarks of someone who learnt English in a Russian school are there.

[Lunokhod]

6 minutes ago, elenhil said:

Most probably. All the hallmarks of someone who learnt English in a Russian school are there.

Ha-ha. Yes, he is russian(post soviet) too. I saw his thread in Steam.

[Xeth Nyrrow]

On 4/27/2023 at 5:46 PM, anon474 said:

I don't think they're poorly balanced, they're just not what I expected (either JA2 vanilla or JA2 1.13 AIMNAS has perfect perks, some perks are survival related, some are sniper related, some are SMG related, etc) and they have freemove and grit systems in them that I can't say I'm fond of.

If you choose to include freemove and grit maybe...but I think these are weird systems that are unrealistic and aren't necessarily in best place in JA.

The free move and grit perks are the ones in particular I think are unbalanced. Maybe not many perks are unbalanced as I said before but these seem to be. Others look pretty basic and reasonable like +15% damage while flanking (maybe even a little weak). Still many more are unknown until we've all played the game.

[Solaris_Wave]

I am quite happy with seeing Jagged Alliance take a more technical and realistic approach to combat and the inventory. That said, I am perfectly fine without seeing a percentage chance to hit. However, some people just like seeing lots of stats, numbers and calculations. When I read PC Gamer's preview for JA3 and it said that the developers were going to omit shown hit percentages, I found myself nodding in approval. They don't need to be there although I fully see the need for some kind of indicator to be there, whether that is speech from the merc or some kind of vague indicator, so you don't waste a completely worthless shot.

I definitely want to see more complex combat, better weapon balancing than in JA2, and would have liked to have seen an inventory system that matches original X-COM and Silent Storm.

Edited April 29, 2023 by Solaris_Wave

[Tzg]

20 hours ago, Hendrix said:

@Tzg Have you tried the Stracciatella mod for JA2?

Personally I think it's a good mod to get the higher resolutions etc. into the game whitout going 1.13.

just played few minutes using it - THANKS! this is exactly what I needed without turning the game into 1.13 abomination!
Love this mod! Thanks again. 

[Hendrix]

@Tzg Glad to hear it! 🙂

[anon474]

On 4/29/2023 at 1:33 AM, Xeth Nyrrow said:

The free move and grit perks are the ones in particular I think are unbalanced. Maybe not many perks are unbalanced as I said before but these seem to be. Others look pretty basic and reasonable like +15% damage while flanking (maybe even a little weak). Still many more are unknown until we've all played the game.

I respect your opinion, but I would say that I don't think it's jagged alliance, or even realistic strategy, to include things like this extra magical HP that appears out of nowhere, or magical AP. I don't even mind freemove too much, I think that can be justified, but grit I especially wish would dissapear.

Because there are other ways to make melee more incentivized (if you want to). Allow melee attacks to be one-hit kills if you can get in close enough. Allow melee attacks to be much lower AP than ranged attacks. Make them do more damage or bypass armor (though maybe that'll make them too OP).

I just don't think they belong in a JA title. All that belongs in a JA title is: moving, and shooting. And yes there will be smaller and more niche mechanics, there will be dual wielding rarely, there will be revolvers rarely, and other less common forms of combat, but generally the upper layer of strategy in JA is very very straightforward. You move and you shoot.

There are also very clear ways to progress and design perks in JA2, either 1.13 or just vanilla. Some perks add extra potential aiming circles or zooms, some perks can add hit chance, some perks can add damage (somewhat unrealistically maybe), or range, or remove AP, or anything like that.

Edited April 30, 2023 by anon474

[Solaris_Wave]

Maybe one way of seeing those perks as feasible is that they could be considered an adrenaline rush. That perk has been used often in RPGs, where your character gains some kind of boost when their health falls to a critical level. In the real world, adrenaline can give you a short-term boost in certain ways. The only difference is that you feel more tired afterwards when it wears off. In a game, you can simply consume a health pack or food and you are instantly ready to go again.

Adrenaline could also be applied to getting shot. Either that or being on some kind of narcotic. I am not saying your mercs should be able to take such things but there have been police reports, which I have read, where they question their weapons and ammunition, because someone under the influence was still standing and fighting after receiving multiple bullet and shotgun wounds. While they were certainly going to be incapacitated or killed from those hits in the very near future, it was not considered fast enough as they were still able to shoot back.

There are African and Middle Eastern plants such as Khat that the user will chew on, giving them a feeling of euphoria and at times invulnerability. It wouldn't be out of place for JA3's enemies to be consuming that drug to make some of the soldiers fearless. They could charge your positions, refuse to flee and even last an extra turn after being considered 0% health.

Edited April 30, 2023 by Solaris_Wave

[anon474]

50 minutes ago, Solaris_Wave said:

Maybe one way of seeing those perks as feasible is that they could be considered an adrenaline rush.

No.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

Don't try to justify the stupid magical AP or HP you got from somewhere because dev put it in there and go like "Oh yeah it's just placebo effect".

There's a place for adrenaline rush and its in morale bar. Aside from that gtfo outta here.

Edited April 30, 2023 by anon474

[anon474]

@Solaris_Wave And why would you only get this extra hp or adrenaline out of cover, and not in cover? You wouldn't. And why would the impact be so significant that instead of dulling the impact of a bullet (i.e. IRL adrenaline, and only pain wise, it's not like if you get hit in the calf that you can use that leg, that leg isn't working anymore, even if it doesn't hurt), it actually allows you to tank additional bullets and only in that turn.

It's just ridiculous in my opinion. I would much rather have explosive stat give stat boosts to explosives (which also doesn't make sense but doesn't make sense far less) than this.

[Solaris_Wave]

Personally, I agree with you on the perk giving that boost. I am not all that keen myself. I am just pointing out how they can feasibly make it work.

[uri91]

Agree with Mancho !!!!

 

I believe that the developers will fix this and the game will become a masterpiece

[Xeth Nyrrow]

On 4/30/2023 at 9:43 AM, anon474 said:

I respect your opinion, but I would say that I don't think it's jagged alliance, or even realistic strategy, to include things like this extra magical HP that appears out of nowhere, or magical AP.

 

I didn't say if I wanted them in the game or not, just that they are unbalanced. I agree with you that they probably shouldn't be in the game either both for balance and realism reasons. This is definitely one of those influenced from Xcom things they added.

Along with the really weird info revealed in recent streams plus the combat dev diary, I have real concerns about the game now. Fog reducing damage and not just accuracy, burst/auto fire making bullets magically half damage and stray shots not being able to hit other parts of the same target are some really bad balancing mechanisms they need to seriously rethink.

[anon474]

32 minutes ago, Xeth Nyrrow said:

I didn't say if I wanted them in the game or not, just that they are unbalanced. I agree with you that they probably shouldn't be in the game either both for balance and realism reasons. This is definitely one of those influenced from Xcom things they added.

Along with the really weird info revealed in recent streams plus the combat dev diary, I have real concerns about the game now. Fog reducing damage and not just accuracy, burst/auto fire making bullets magically half damage and stray shots not being able to hit other parts of the same target are some really bad balancing mechanisms they need to seriously rethink.

I actually don't think it came from XCOM, I think this came from CRPGs and was indeed a new creation of the dev team.

They wanted to add new things to the formula of JA, which by itself is a great intention, but sometimes the things you'll come up with will be too far in a given direction and will be undesirable. Creation is often 100% new ideas but only 50% you should end up implementing, so to speak.

[Xeth Nyrrow]

12 minutes ago, anon474 said:

I actually don't think it came from XCOM, I think this came from CRPGs and was indeed a new creation of the dev team.

They wanted to add new things to the formula of JA, which by itself is a great intention, but sometimes the things you'll come up with will be too far in a given direction and will be undesirable. Creation is often 100% new ideas but only 50% you should end up implementing, so to speak.

You are right, I just picked Xcom since it's the common example everyone relates to. I do think JA3 is straying a bit in to the fantastical too much with some of these things...more RPG character building than tactical TBS game. But that's what sells better most likely and is how they want to make it distinctly JA3 and not just JA2.5.

[Stuurminator]

8 hours ago, Xeth Nyrrow said:

I do think JA3 is straying a bit in to the fantastical too much with some of these things...more RPG character building than tactical TBS game. But that's what sells better most likely and is how they want to make it distinctly JA3 and not just JA2.5.

I'm trying to have an open mind. Jagged Alliance has never been strictly realistic, and I encourage game designers to experiment with new ideas with each new installment of a series.

All the same, some of these choices are a little out there. Throwing two grenades at once? Sure! Automatically tossing knives at anyone that gets close? Uh, kind of comic booky, but okay, I'll buy that. The whole grit mechanic? Autofire doing less damage instead of letting a higher spread do that organically? Eh...

[Xeth Nyrrow]

21 minutes ago, Stuurminator said:

I'm trying to have an open mind. Jagged Alliance has never been strictly realistic, and I encourage game designers to experiment with new ideas with each new installment of a series.

All the same, some of these choices are a little out there. Throwing two grenades at once? Sure! Automatically tossing knives at anyone that gets close? Uh, kind of comic booky, but okay, I'll buy that. The whole grit mechanic? Autofire doing less damage instead of letting a higher spread do that organically? Eh...

Yeah I feel exactly the same that there is room for them to add fun but it needs to have limits. These are the things having a beta test would really bring to light so we can find obvious abuses that need balancing. I have a feeling there will be a patch or two with some heavy nerfs shortly after release.

Though if the game is moddable enough I might just make my own balancing mod and call it a day. I would prefer a more balanced base game to work without that isn't balanced around cartoony actions one upping each other. If it over shadows the gun play too much then we know they went too far.

[Stuurminator]

14 minutes ago, Xeth Nyrrow said:

Yeah I feel exactly the same that there is room for them to add fun but it needs to have limits. These are the things having a beta test would really bring to light so we can find obvious abuses that need balancing. I have a feeling there will be a patch or two with some heavy nerfs shortly after release.

It's not a matter of balance. If they build the entire combat system around grit so that every fight is about getting shot and not taking damage, but the resource management of maintaining that grit is a fair challenge, then that's balanced. It's not an abuse, and it doesn't need to be nerfed. But that's not the style of gameplay I want from Jagged Alliance.

[Xeth Nyrrow]

2 minutes ago, Stuurminator said:

It's not a matter of balance. If they build the entire combat system around grit so that every fight is about getting shot and not taking damage, but the resource management of maintaining that grit is a fair challenge, then that's balanced. It's not an abuse, and it doesn't need to be nerfed. But that's not the style of gameplay I want from Jagged Alliance.

Both can be true I suppose. I really hope they don't (and don't think they will) go the super hero comic book route. Assuming they don't, they have to make sure these new, "powers" are balanced enough so that it doesn't revolve around only using a handful of the best ones that become must haves. I'd consider that much worse than going full comic book like the nuXcoms did.

Also I think they know going toward nuXcom game play too much will alienate both new and old players. I'm not too worried about them taking that path but more so about large imbalances in abilities like free move and grit that we have now. When you add big play maker abilities like those to a game delicately balanced around relatively small differences between forces like JA2 was, they tend to have tremendous impacts.

[Solaris_Wave]

12 hours ago, Xeth Nyrrow said:

Along with the really weird info revealed in recent streams plus the combat dev diary, I have real concerns about the game now. Fog reducing damage and not just accuracy, burst/auto fire making bullets magically half damage and stray shots not being able to hit other parts of the same target are some really bad balancing mechanisms they need to seriously rethink.

This concerns me too. Why does fog reduce bullet damage? Is this fog a man-made leftover from chemical weapons like in Rogue Trooper or Warhammer 40K? No, it isn't. Why does full-auto fire need to be balanced in that way and not in a logical, sensible fashion?

I'm also still trying to picture how two grenades can be primed and accurately thrown at the same time…

[Hendrix]

I think it is strange (and bad combo) to have a dark and (relatively) realistic story/setting for the game but having the combat and character building in line with the new XCOM games/Wasteland 2&3. Who do you try to target with such an approach? I don't believe people who wants a new XCOM game are very interested in a very down to earth and realistic setting? Neither do I belive those of us that wants a realistic setting wants a combat system were the mercs are super heroes.

To this day I still love the combat in JA2 (both vanilla and modded) because I never experience the mercs being super heroes no matter what level or equipment they have. You are most often punished rather than rewarded for doing something "brave" in the game. I don't want JA3 to be a simulator, but I neither want it to be D&D.

[Stevenable]

On 4/27/2023 at 6:03 PM, Grim said:

If this is what a JA fan sounds like, I don't want to be part of it. And no, we're not an army, just a handful of old guys.

Well, you have your perfect game with JA2 1.13 + AI, go for it. Don't expect a new game to transfer all features from that, or it would be... JA2 1.13 + AI, and nothing else. A new game has to change things to work.

I couldn't agree more.