Always running

[Lunokhod]

5 hours ago, Acid said:

but that could be a lot work doing different animations for all mercs and the enemies.

Omg "a lot of work". Walking in games - its basic, its simple. Different run animations too. Lets just pay them for nothing. Please dont do anything, just take our money, we dont want THQ and Haemimont to work. Jesus... Wtf?

[GODSPEED]

6 hours ago, ShadowMagic said:

I do think that is important. Even JA2 nailed it by taking the Mercs health / stamina / morale / weight of gear into consideration. When being rested and of high morale, they would walk more frantically and when exhausted / low on morale moved around slowly.

There would be absolutely no sense into having the Mercs run around freed sectors with their gear (in some cases even heavy machine guns) strapped on their backs weighing tens of kilo's. 

+1 ^

What playes want out of JA3 is extremely divided it seems. Anyways, from my point of view over the years of following convos and such on the Bear's Pit. It seemed to be way more unified what players wanted from a JA3 than what I've been seeing as we get closer to release. Seems as though way more people seem to want a game clsoer to X-Com that doesn't deal with the macro-management part of Jagged Alliance.

Maybe that is due to playstyle? Types of games played? Age?

As an example, I'm more of a macro-management type of player. I tend to prefer games that go far into crazy detail like walking speeds, bullet count, realistic magazine capacities, recoil. I tend to like games like Jagged Alliance 2, Brigade E5/7,62mm High Calibre, Alfa, Hired Guns, etc... for the more precise approach at those details.. over games like xcom that don't worry about those and focus more on "big picture" stuff.

Brigade E5 / 7,62mm High Calibre even had multiple different walking speeds, but that game also played more like Back in Action (real-time w/ pause).

I want a game that kind of takes pointers from 1.13 with the pouches, vests, gear over a game that ditches those in favour of a inventory system that harkens back to JA1.

For the same reasons I would never go back to JA1, simply because I find the management of the inventory, mercs and other fine detail too simplistic, I also want the detail found in 1.13, but in a new game.


I also find such "unnecessary" detail like walking and running to be important. Anyways, you've mentioned exactly the same reasons I had. But yeah.. I think that stuff is important to the overall feel of the game.

[5Cents]

"Always running" in JA3, wont be a true story..😉
If so, mercs are just a bit over motivated, or have restless legs syndrome.

But anyway..
I really liked Ja2 Movement-possibilities. You could do tactic sidesteps and siderolls, which was a very useful and cool function standing next to windows or doors.

This was a very well thought out feature.

It would have been cool, if these tactical functions would find continuation or even extensions (standing sideleaning or siderolls when crounched).

But im feeling kind of illusory, to dare expecting seeing that.

[Xeth Nyrrow]

2 hours ago, GODSPEED said:

+1 ^

What playes want out of JA3 is extremely divided it seems. Anyways, from my point of view over the years of following convos and such on the Bear's Pit. It seemed to be way more unified what players wanted from a JA3 than what I've been seeing as we get closer to release. Seems as though way more people seem to want a game clsoer to X-Com that doesn't deal with the macro-management part of Jagged Alliance.

Maybe that is due to playstyle? Types of games played? Age?

As an example, I'm more of a macro-management type of player. I tend to prefer games that go far into crazy detail like walking speeds, bullet count, realistic magazine capacities, recoil. I tend to like games like Jagged Alliance 2, Brigade E5/7,62mm High Calibre, Alfa, Hired Guns, etc... for the more precise approach at those details.. over games like xcom that don't worry about those and focus more on "big picture" stuff.

Brigade E5 / 7,62mm High Calibre even had multiple different walking speeds, but that game also played more like Back in Action (real-time w/ pause).

I want a game that kind of takes pointers from 1.13 with the pouches, vests, gear over a game that ditches those in favour of a inventory system that harkens back to JA1.

For the same reasons I would never go back to JA1, simply because I find the management of the inventory, mercs and other fine detail too simplistic, I also want the detail found in 1.13, but in a new game.


I also find such "unnecessary" detail like walking and running to be important. Anyways, you've mentioned exactly the same reasons I had. But yeah.. I think that stuff is important to the overall feel of the game.

This type of player base division is common in older games being remade when mods have been involved. These, "unnecessary" details for the majority of players don't add value to their game and actually have a detrimental effect in discouraging some players. It's not that one way or the other is better, but surely you realize you have a minority opinion about these things? Obviously it's good business sense to appeal to the 80% and not the 20%.

Most people don't want busy work in their games. So much so they pay real money to avoid it (see: mobile games industry). On the other hand, we have people who play games that are basically jobs (most ,"Simulator" games). A lot of games like this one fall in the middle so compromises have to be made.

[5Cents]

I actually liked flugentes mods, like the foodsystem in 1.13. But it also caused a lot of micromanagement and also logistic and logical problems. Didnt became friend of cargosystem. A flood of stuff, Like Vests pounches and so on very similar to each other, getting annoyed doing micromacromanamagment, all the time. I understand the sense and also the interest in it. And, Yes you can put it off. But i wouldnt expect that mass of work for a game, created for market, if half of people wont use that anyway.

And THERE a lot of mobilegames, youre doing only such micromanagement things all the time. And in the end, you didnt make any process in game and you get nothing out of all the timeinvesting process. And you cant expect devs making a expensive game, which wont sold very good in the end.🤷🏼‍♂️

For me fE, its not the sense of a game, to administer tons of materials and imo that would be an army logistic simulator, instead of an battle rpg.😁

Edited July 6, 2023 by 5Cents

[Claudius33]

4 hours ago, 5Cents said:

I really liked Ja2 Movement-possibilities. You could do tactic sidesteps and siderolls, which was a very useful and cool function standing next to windows or doors.

I might be wrong but I think I've seen in one the video Ivan shooting from behind cover sidestepping on his own. So it seems that the game takes care of.

I also saw Igor being crouched behing cover, siderolled another good position and crouched again. The streamer didn't have to key in (S)tand, (R)un), (C)rouch ...

Good for players's Quality of Life, perhaps not for micromanagement's aficionados.

[GODSPEED]

3 hours ago, Xeth Nyrrow said:

Most people don't want busy work in their games. So much so they pay real money to avoid it (see: mobile games industry). On the other hand, we have people who play games that are basically jobs (most ,"Simulator" games). A lot of games like this one fall in the middle so compromises have to be made.

I get your point, also think that's why X-Com become so successful. It really took away lots of that micro-management in the combat/tactical phase, instead focused on less detail and a more straightforward approach.

I guess if you look at numbers and measure success that way, yes, it is a much better game. For myself, I bought it when it came out, finished it once, tried to go back a few years later, and well.. that's how it ended. The lack of micro-management & lack of freedom means it became forgettable for myself.

I always felt Jagged Alliance with it's deeper strategic & tactical layer offered way more appeal to the armchair general type.. you know, the ones who play things like Men of War, Hearts of Iron, Arma, etc.. it focuses on the little detail that our type likes. That the type of person who prefers X-com won't care much about.

So many hard-core fans of Jagged Alliance are also fans of games like 7,62mm High Calibre.. another game in the vein of the micro-management style.


Guess I'm just a little sad to see it aim to be a more streamlined twist. Not saying it will be bad.. and I can't judge before playing it. Just a feeling.

[Xeth Nyrrow]

1 hour ago, GODSPEED said:

guess if you look at numbers and measure success that way, yes, it is a much better game.

Careful with the word, "better" here. One game being good or, "better" is mostly a matter of opinion. However success is very measurable as a fact. Just because XCOM2 was hugely successful doesn't make it a better game.

JA3 like most games was created to make money. Part of that equation is to make it more appealing than JA2. Did they go too far and ruin the magic formula that made JA2 a cult classic? Time will tell but my guess is simplifying the parts most players find tedious will be better for the game's success. Of course for people who got a lot of entertainment value from those features they will be disappointed.

[Acid]

15 hours ago, Lunokhod said:

Omg "a lot of work". Walking in games - its basic, its simple. Different run animations too. Lets just pay them for nothing. Please dont do anything, just take our money, we dont want THQ and Haemimont to work. Jesus... Wtf?

I meant it could be more costly and time consuming.

[Acid]

15 hours ago, GODSPEED said:

+1 ^

What playes want out of JA3 is extremely divided it seems. Anyways, from my point of view over the years of following convos and such on the Bear's Pit. It seemed to be way more unified what players wanted from a JA3 than what I've been seeing as we get closer to release. Seems as though way more people seem to want a game clsoer to X-Com that doesn't deal with the macro-management part of Jagged Alliance.

Maybe that is due to playstyle? Types of games played? Age?

As an example, I'm more of a macro-management type of player. I tend to prefer games that go far into crazy detail like walking speeds, bullet count, realistic magazine capacities, recoil. I tend to like games like Jagged Alliance 2, Brigade E5/7,62mm High Calibre, Alfa, Hired Guns, etc... for the more precise approach at those details.. over games like xcom that don't worry about those and focus more on "big picture" stuff.

Brigade E5 / 7,62mm High Calibre even had multiple different walking speeds, but that game also played more like Back in Action (real-time w/ pause).

I want a game that kind of takes pointers from 1.13 with the pouches, vests, gear over a game that ditches those in favour of a inventory system that harkens back to JA1.

For the same reasons I would never go back to JA1, simply because I find the management of the inventory, mercs and other fine detail too simplistic, I also want the detail found in 1.13, but in a new game.


I also find such "unnecessary" detail like walking and running to be important. Anyways, you've mentioned exactly the same reasons I had. But yeah.. I think that stuff is important to the overall feel of the game.

That kind of stuff is good if you've got a lot of time, and not a lot of other stuff to do, but I think with people to day they lack patience and are bombarded with so much stuff (mostly crap) they can't be bothered wasting time on a game with too much detail, and would rather something more quick and easy to get through, then move on to the next thing. 

[Solaris_Wave]

On 7/6/2023 at 10:27 AM, Acid said:

Not sure if there's a walking animation but it does look a bit clone like with them all running the same together, bit of differences in the movements for each character would've made them more unique, but that could be a lot work doing different animations for all mercs and the enemies. 

Maybe it is a case of adjusting the timing of the animations just slightly. I don't know whether, when there is group selection, there can be a random adjustment to the timing. That way, not every merc is moving the same leg at the exact same time, and the same arm at the exact same time.

[GODSPEED]

1 hour ago, Solaris_Wave said:

Maybe it is a case of adjusting the timing of the animations just slightly. I don't know whether, when there is group selection, there can be a random adjustment to the timing. That way, not every merc is moving the same leg at the exact same time, and the same arm at the exact same time.

I guess this is me being a jerk and nitpicking again.

Just to make it very clear.. I want JA3 to succeed, I'm not criticizing to hate, all the opposite... I'm hoping to be proven wrong!

But, this is another one of those small details that has me scratching my head. In another topic, I was talking about the stats, and @Raeven said the stats are the same as JA2. And where I have trouble kind of believing this is over the content I've seen so far, it either doesn't appear that way, or I'm not understanding something.

Every action a merc took was attached to some statistic; weight & movement would affect and deplete stamina at varying degrees, depending on strength and agility. Morale would affect movement speed and disposition (effectiveness) in combat. Stamina level would affect movement speed (and combat AP).

If all mercs simply run the same speed, does it mean there is no stamina (or that stamina is disabled when in real-time)?

When moving with a group in JA2, you could clearly see if a merc had Athletics, or if a merc had very low agility. They wouldn't move nearly at the same rate.


And I guess someone will tell me that it doesn't matter. Or that is too fine of detail to worry about...

I beg to differ. This is something that, before seeing the videos in JA3, never really "bothered" me, because JA2 overall mechanics just blend seamlessly in a "believable" way when it comes to a video game. (I get it, real life team would move at the pace of the slowest in the group, meaning for example, a swat team won't leave on of the guys behind because his name is Bubba) 🤣.

These guys are mercenaries. Not a swat team. They bicker, bitch and hate one another. Bubba can huff and puff all he wants, Blood is NOT going to slow down for such a jerk. That means, as you're moving around, someone like Blood has the best chances of spotting the enemy. Maybe the enemy also spots him, starting combat.

If you decided to not bother with moving in formation, or leaving bubba behind, well he probably won't be of any assistance in the first rounds of combat.

This kind of thought behind something as "simple" as movement in between combat became normal, a standard. You learnt this through the gameplay, and when you had enough money, you would subconsciously choose mercs that fit one another well. If you got 5 mercs with good agility, you woulnd't just add Bubba to that bunch. He would be relegated to another less active team for other tasks.

This is a "simple" and effective way of also differentiating mercs. You yourself "hate" to wait for the slow one. It reinforces your own likes and dislikes.

Edited July 7, 2023 by GODSPEED

[5Cents]

This stereotype movements shall create a jagged-retro athmosphere, one dev said.

No, just kidding. They are just prussian or trained soldiers doing equal steps, called Quick March.😁

Anyway. Not very contemporary for a game and on battlefield.

[Xeth Nyrrow]

2 hours ago, GODSPEED said:

I guess this is me being a jerk and nitpicking again.

Not a jerk and yeah maybe a bit nitpicking but a valid opinion still. For me the mercs moving at different speeds in real time was super annoying because I have to wait for the slowest one. This often let to mercs being in weird positions when the combat started unless I micro managed each ones' movement.

I would have rather they all moved at the same speed of the slowest one when they were moving as a group instead. It is realistic? Yes and no. No because they have different speeds, but yes because if they are moving in formation then they should stay in formation even if some could move faster.

[5Cents]

I used to play 1.13 with squads with different tasks.

So most of the time i had 4 or 5 of them..

One Team was Support group, doing logistic stuff. Mercs who are behind frontline. Driving around stuff. Low stats. Some in training, getting better.

One Team was forming militia. Good leadership. Good stats, eqpd for defend.

Combat Support. Somewhere in the Backyard, chillin'. Mortarteams. Sometimes 'prepared' battlefield, before it got one. Minimal wpns, no body armor, instead more shells.

Average soldiers. Second Line. Supported the Mainbattleteam with surpressing fire & AT.

OP Teams. Frontline-Top-Tier-Elite Mercs, with the only task to fight. Best stats, best eqpm. Sometimes doing commandostuff.

These 'combat-robots' had all similar stats, regarding strength and agility and also loadingweight.

So they could run with same speed.. and often their leg movements were looking similar if not identical.

The rest of these bunch of loosers i couldnt observed too much in real time. There was always this weak recruit-type-guy, everybody had to wait on, like in real training, 5 mins felt like half an hour..annoying.

So they traveled out of my eyes, on the roadmap (couldnt risk, let them walking round in Arulco neither ;).

In turn based, all other than except the elite one, hardly moved round. They had to spare their APs for support.

Before & after combat: "Sit Up! Get in your fckn icecream truck, and do things..and beware of that landmines, for god's sake!"

For Elite: "Tieeee shoelaces!"

Edited July 8, 2023 by 5Cents

[WILDFIRE]

@ShadowMagic: There is a reason why I wrote 'not extremely important' when I thought about the walking feature. For me elements like lively animated portraits come first and I wrote endlessly about that topic over a year, because it is extremely important to me and many other JA fans. But in the end we won't get that and that is sad.

 

Yes a walking feature is important and yes mercs should walk slowly when exhausted. Health, morale, weight and so on should influence the movement of the mercs but as I stated before I guess at this point we have to accept that we will not get everything we wanted. But maybe in the future the modding community will fix this.

[chr_isso]

On 7/4/2023 at 9:51 PM, Stuurminator said:

They're not all synchronized, but they do all have the same running animations, played at the same speed. It looks unnatural when you have multiple mercs running alongside each other.

See below:

give it a few weeks and ppl will mod animations for it.
Pretty damn sure this game has a lot of potential.

If I was able to use blender, heck, I would mod myself I guess.