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Missing mini-map, ridiculous gun repair (and modification) mechanism, herbs that become meds, money basically just lying around, is overwatch broken?


VidarNL

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I've been watching pretty much all the stream videos and YouTube previews of the game that I can find and Tthere are a few things that I've found actually are the biggest gameplay problems for me:

1. No mini map. If you can pan around in all directions and you're quite zoomed in compared to JA2, I'd really want/need a mini map. Also to know where all the spotted enemies are so I can make a better-informed decision as to where to move my mercs.

 

2. The gun repair and modification mechanism is just... so ridiculous. So you're saying you can break down all kinds of random objects in the level and have completely generic "parts" that you can fix guns gun with? So a car has parts that I can put in my gun or something? That's just so unrealistic it borders on laughing the players in their faces imo.

I've seen that you can scrap weapons you don't use, so why not just use those for gun-specific parts to repair guns with? The system could then look a bit like this:

- You can scrap guns for parts that you can use for the same type of gun, i.e. AK-47 parts to fix AK47s, M16 parts for M16's, you get the picture. Same with mods/attachments, if you want to go that way.

- Scrapping could provide you with parts that each have their own rarity based on what parts would be more likely to stay good or be damaged and the status % of the gun you're scrapping,, i.e. (purely hypothetical) for an AK-47, the firing pin is very sturdy, so you'd very often get one from scrapping, whereas the magazine holder often breaks, so it's less likely to be good on a 44% weapon you're scrapping. It would add an element of anticipation when scrapping a gun.

- This would make it a priority to equip guns that break less easily, or to stock up on parts that break often.

- To balance this out, there could be a merchant that sells and buys gun parts, and/or you could find stashes of gun parts around the map where enemy strongholds are, because they also need to fix their guns, of course. Could even add convoys of gun parts like the ones for diamonds.

- Maybe the percentage of the status could then be based on the rarity of the damaged/broken part, so the rarer the part, the more the status goes up in %. Or replace the % altogether with "4 out of 10 parts damaged"

- (ideally you'd also be able to see which parts are damaged and what you need to replace, but maybe that's too much detail)

 

Also, what's the deal with not being able to remove attachments from guns? You put them on, surely you know how to get them back off?

 

3. You pick herbs and you magically get... pills (? haven't really seen what they turn into) that fix your health. I mean sure, you can make medicine from herbs, but just picking generic "herbs" feels way too... well, generic. And pills don't heal wounds. Just provide the player with more first aid kits and medical kits.

If you're going to pick herbs, why not turn them into boosts like the one from Thor, where you get a bit of extra health for 1 or a few turns, or maybe a boost to your agility if you eat another type of herb (leaves from the plant that coffee is made from maybe, so you're more alert and have more energy, so more AP? Just brainstorming here) Maybe you can use certain leaves as a makeshift bandage to stop or at least decrease bleeding until you can get an actual medic to your bleeding merc? There are so many possibilities here, that just picking generic "herbs" to heal health points with makes it seem like not much effort was put into thinking about this mechanic.

 

4. So there are quite a lot of random machines that you can hack, and they just spit out money. I'm not sure what kind of machines these are, but again this feels like a very generic way of providing funds. "Touch this item, make a mechanical skills check (or whatever it is) and get money". It should be difficult to get money in Africa! You shouldn't be able to just take a mechanic and loot 3 or more machines in one sector to get thousands of dollars (which is several years' wages for some of these poor villagers!) 
Maybe the frequency of these hackable machines decreases once you get off the island and can secure a mine, but it just seems like a lack of imagination to me. Plus it just seems to be a lack of imagination as to how to get your funds.

Also with the convoys of diamonds and you being able to just sell these from your inventory (I think?), why should there be money just basically lying around?

Maybe you could:

- Have more regular convoys

- Intimidate/convince more low-level bad guys to part with their diamonds or money

- Just have safes in buildings (of bad guys, but maybe also villagers if you really want to let players do whatever they want... but then there could be consequences maybe)

More things to sell (like rare comic books to a specific comic book aficionado, or a bloodcat pelt/teeth etc. equivalent for hyenas or other wildlife (not any endangered animals, of course. Or maybe do, mercs don't have to be goody-two-shoes, do they? Then the ones who do have morals could threaten to leave if you try to sell an elephant tusk or something), or football (soccer) jerseys of famous football players (you see those quite often in Africa afaik), so why not make someone buy those?

- Just make the choice between selling or scrapping guns harder by not having money lying around at all. In combination with the repair mechanic outlined above, it would make an interesting constant dilemma for players whether they want to sell the guns to be able to bring in that one merc earlier or extend that one merc's contract that's running out, or to scrap it because one of the guns' status is getting dangerously low.

 

5. The overwatch system... I like overwatch, and I like that you can set exactly which area you want them to overwatch, but as some streamers/YouTubers have said, it seems ridiculously strong. From what I've seen, mercs can shoot more than once, even if they don't have many AP left. And the hit chance seems quite high?

Maybe I'm seeing things that aren't there concerning overwatch, but imo the system for interrupts in JA2 was excellent: if you have enough AP left to shoot, you can overwatch (maybe it costs 1 extra point to ready your gun or something, don't know). Then depending on how many times you could shoot with those AP, that's how many times you can shoot during overwatch. And you only shoot at the most "zoomed out" level, so the least AP you could spend to shoot, because overwatch is meant to be a reflexive shot system, afaik. So: need minimum 7 AP and you have 9 left? Guess you can only shoot once. First enemy that moves within your cone gets it. Any other one can move right on through.

 

What do you all think?

Edited by VidarNL
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1. There is an overview, a zommed out topdown view you can activate anytime. Not really a minimap but does the job.

2. Not ultra fan of the current system but I don't see any other system not ending in a headache actually. This one is simple, functionnal, easy to handle. In JA2 there were only the toolboxes and tons of attachments, it was not ideal.
 

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I agree with pretty much everything you said and I really dislike the weapon modification system including ammo crafting and weapon repair. Doing all this stuff with scrap just doesn't make sense or seem like fun. Weapon mods can't be swapped between weapons like in JA2 anymore which is a big bummer. Gameplay mechanics like this just don't seem enjoyable or believable. These things should be acquired through vendors like JA2 did with Bobby Ray's and Tony, or be able to be removed from guns found in the world. The more I see these kind of things, the more I believe that vendors are not really a thing in JA3 which would be a huge disappointment. Running guns to Tony to sell for income and resupplying your troops with ammo and guns from Bobby Ray's was another layer to the gameplay of JA2 that is missing here.

Getting money via hacking is weird. You should get more money for controlling diamond mines and do away with this hacking for cash. Would also be nice to be able to sell gear you pick up in the world for profit which could supplement the mine income.

Overwatch system is too strong especially with a machine gun. You can wipe out a half a dozen enemies with an MG on overwatch.

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Quote

Overwatch system is too strong especially with a machine gun. You can wipe out a half a dozen enemies with an MG on overwatch.

so what you saying is - you hate unrealistic system re: parts - but you hate realistic system of ambush with MG? 

Are you sure you are not my wife?

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What weapon mods can't be removed (I haven't seen this in JA3 so far)? Are you referring to weapon attachments like optics, foregrips and so on, or do you mean internal components? Everything that can be attached and assembled surely can be detached and disassembled, unless it was glued or welded. Hopefully, that can be altered before game release.

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33 minutes ago, Claudius33 said:

I saw in a stream an additional cross removed from Ivan's AK. The model was redrawn accordingly. Then the streamer put it again.

So I assume that most of weapons mods can be revoved, except some like JA2's rod & spring or gun barrel extender.

by "not being able to remove a weapon mod" people reffers to "you can't get a scope off from a weapon and put it on an another wepon / or sell it". Because weapon mods are crafted in place on particular weapon.

Edited by Reloecc
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If weapon attachments can't be removed then that is just silly. While not as ubiquitous as they are today, rail interface mounts were common by 2001 (JA3's timeline). Even before then, there were different mounting options for such equipment. While not necessarily universal with every long gun, mounts could be interchanged with other weapons of the same type.

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20 hours ago, Tzg said:

so what you saying is - you hate unrealistic system re: parts - but you hate realistic system of ambush with MG? 

Are you sure you are not my wife?

LOL Gameplay wise and given the amount of enemies per sector from what we've seen, mowing down half the enemies with one overwatch MG just doesn't balance very well. Maybe if they triple the amount of enemies per sector it might balance better in this regard but that may also have other unintended consequences.

As for the topic of weapon mods, they can be added/removed/changed using scrap which is a weird mechanic but are solely for that particular weapon. I believe what most of us want is for weapon mods to be treated as separate parts which can be swapped to and from different weapons. For example, you buy say a 4x scope and give it to Ivan for his weapon. Then later you decide to change Ivan's scope to an 8x so you remove the 4x scope from Ivan's weapon and give it to Barry for his weapon. Under the current system, weapon mods are bound to the weapon due to this weapon mod scrap mechanic.

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3 hours ago, DougS2K said:

LOL Gameplay wise and given the amount of enemies per sector from what we've seen, mowing down half the enemies with one overwatch MG just doesn't balance very well. Maybe if they triple the amount of enemies per sector it might balance better in this regard but that may also have other unintended consequences.

Is there video footage of this particular battle occurring? I am curious to see how the machine guns are. Mowing down enemies isn't unheard of in history, as scores of human beings try to overrun positions. The thing is, do you really want it in JA3? It will clearly create a situation where you will set up a defensive position and let the poorly trained enemies try to rush you. The machine gun will be the dominant weapon and there will be little need for anything else.

I want to know how the different levels of enemy are handled in terms of Artificial Intelligence. While they will be varied in their equipment, will lesser enemy units try to charge you, almost recklessly? Will they be easy to rout and cause to flee, as you take them out one by one, or will they be fearless due to being on African narcotics or religious zeal? If a sniper is picking them off, will they hide and be afraid to attack, giving you chance to pin them down as your team moves up on their positions? If they are well trained, will their soldiers work together, trying to suppress your mercs while they close in?

I am hoping there will be a variety here, which will once again, give reason to equip various weapon types.

 

3 hours ago, DougS2K said:

As for the topic of weapon mods, they can be added/removed/changed using scrap which is a weird mechanic but are solely for that particular weapon. I believe what most of us want is for weapon mods to be treated as separate parts which can be swapped to and from different weapons. For example, you buy say a 4x scope and give it to Ivan for his weapon. Then later you decide to change Ivan's scope to an 8x so you remove the 4x scope from Ivan's weapon and give it to Barry for his weapon. Under the current system, weapon mods are bound to the weapon due to this weapon mod scrap mechanic.

The more I read about this, the more it sounds like the wrong thing to have in the game. You aren't building weapons from scrap like you are in some post-apocalyptic wasteland. You don't need to build a makeshift gun out of parts because you are a poor desperado. You are not in an episode of The A-Team where you need to make a rocket launcher out of elastic bands, plastic piping and some sherbet dip. Unless something is actually welded or glued, anything you can put on one gun could most likely go on another gun. Anything that uses Picatinny or Weaver rails will be interchangeable. An AK side-mount will work on other AKs, Heckler & Koch mounts will fit other H&K long guns. Older guns might have bespoke mounts. If not, then that is where heavy duty tape comes in. The developers can make it as simple or as complicated as they like, and with JA3 being set in 2001, they have plenty of options. Using scrap to make something to attach to a gun, or to modify a gun, just seems silly. More so if it can't ever be removed. A different setting and it is plausible. In Africa at the turn of the 21st Century? Not so much.

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1 hour ago, Solaris_Wave said:

Is there video footage of this particular battle occurring? I am curious to see how the machine guns are. Mowing down enemies isn't unheard of in history, as scores of human beings try to overrun positions. The thing is, do you really want it in JA3? It will clearly create a situation where you will set up a defensive position and let the poorly trained enemies try to rush you. The machine gun will be the dominant weapon and there will be little need for anything else.

I want to know how the different levels of enemy are handled in terms of Artificial Intelligence. While they will be varied in their equipment, will lesser enemy units try to charge you, almost recklessly? Will they be easy to rout and cause to flee, as you take them out one by one, or will they be fearless due to being on African narcotics or religious zeal? If a sniper is picking them off, will they hide and be afraid to attack, giving you chance to pin them down as your team moves up on their positions? If they are well trained, will their soldiers work together, trying to suppress your mercs while they close in?

I am hoping there will be a variety here, which will once again, give reason to equip various weapon types.

 

The more I read about this, the more it sounds like the wrong thing to have in the game. You aren't building weapons from scrap like you are in some post-apocalyptic wasteland. You don't need to build a makeshift gun out of parts because you are a poor desperado. You are not in an episode of The A-Team where you need to make a rocket launcher out of elastic bands, plastic piping and some sherbet dip. Unless something is actually welded or glued, anything you can put on one gun could most likely go on another gun. Anything that uses Picatinny or Weaver rails will be interchangeable. An AK side-mount will work on other AKs, Heckler & Koch mounts will fit other H&K long guns. Older guns might have bespoke mounts. If not, then that is where heavy duty tape comes in. The developers can make it as simple or as complicated as they like, and with JA3 being set in 2001, they have plenty of options. Using scrap to make something to attach to a gun, or to modify a gun, just seems silly. More so if it can't ever be removed. A different setting and it is plausible. In Africa at the turn of the 21st Century? Not so much.

I really don't remember where the MG footage is but it's due to the way the overwatch works for MGs. It's not like JA2 where you only get one shot off. With an MG you can literally shoot in overwatch till your gun is empty. 

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I am still trying to figure out the difference between having an Overwatch mode and keeping the traditional method of allowing an Interrupt during the enemy turn, if you have action points left over.

Hopefully, I can locate the video segment on Overwatch because it sounds like a good idea on paper but in action, has its flaws. In other games, particularly table-top games, an Overwatch mode can work like an Interrupt but it always has some limitation to stop it being overpowered. Without actually seeing it in JA3, I can't tell. It doesn't sound like you can run out of action points while using it, from what it sounds like you are describing. Your gun doesn't overheat and providing you have enough ammo, are free to shoot all day while the enemy tries to do things.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Overwatch is not unlimited.

It's working like in many other games (and NOT XCom), where you basically turn your AP into shots, which is very close to interrupts (just that you cannot move and decide the order, you could even argue its more realistic).

When you start overwatch you have to have a minimum amount of points, which seems to be equal the amount you need to shoot normally.

I found 3 examples:
Merc with 4 AP starts Overwatch with 4 Minimum: He has 2 overwatch charges.
Merc with 5 AP starts Overwatch with 4 Minimum: He has 2 overwatch charges.
Merc with 8 AP starts Overwatch with 4 Minimum: He has 3 overwatch charges.

Once these "charges" are gone, the cone disappears from being displayed.

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  • 2 months later...

found it "o" is the key. but overview is worse than normal view. you can view much more further in normal view. the overview should zoomed out 2x or 3x more than the current to be useful.

Edited by shadoww
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No minimap is not a problem, the sectors are not that big. However, in the overview map, devs should fix the zoom out function. Many games already have this zoom in - zoom out feature, and IMO is better than JA2.

 

Weapon attachments is a problem for JA2 diehard; but weapon attachment is not a problem for other games. This is how it is already in many FPS games. We use the gun, and have to unlock the gun attachments for each gun. Otherwise, you can level up a cheap/easy gun to get many kills, get 10x scope, then use the 10x scope on your more expensive gun.

 

Game devs could have done it same or different to JA2. How or whatever the game devs built the game, someone will always say this is better, or that is better, not everyone can agree to what is better, and someone will write a game mod to do something different. The game devs have said, this is ok, play the game with whatever game mods you want.        

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On 4/24/2023 at 6:38 PM, Grim said:

2. Not ultra fan of the current system but I don't see any other system not ending in a headache actually. This one is simple, functionnal, easy to handle. In JA2 there were only the toolboxes and tons of attachments, it was not ideal.

Not even tons vanilla JA2 has 3 sizes of scope that differ only in how good they are, and one of each: a laser, a foregrip, a bipod, a GL, rod replacement and extension. a whooping total of 9, of which two you craft from literal garbage.

Parts replaced the toolbox, attachment variety is handled through crafting upgrades so that there's some semblance of economy and new weapons aren't immediately straight upgrades (matter of fact, some are downgrades even with attachments, depending on who and how is using them).

Most of all, people seem to forget that this it is not without precedent that you turn junk into attachments you cannot remove.

It's whining for the sake of whining, or worse, because they were spoiled by 1.13.

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