Percentages on reticles (please let them at least be a toggled option!)

[chr_isso]

Just now, sandman25dcsss said:

I was not going to discuss CtH, but if you want...

Thank you, but I know all that and play similarly with shown CtH, it is common tactics to use the worst mercs first so you can fix everything later with more reliable mercs.

My issue is that instead of using game to do simple math people suggest to keep merc marksmanship, weapon accuracy bonus, distance bonus, height bonus, experience bonus etc. in mind and then calculate (or estimate if you call it intuition) their total using brain. I don't play games to sum numbers, it is trivial and boring.

then don't play the game. or just download the mod.

if you don't want to use your brain, why not just watch other poeple play games?

[Uncle Nick]

19 minutes ago, sandman25dcsss said:

...Thank you, but I know all that and play similarly with shown CtH, it is common tactics to use the worst mercs first so you can fix everything later with more reliable mercs....

No, that is not what the player did in the video. He used his best merc Ivan first to setup ambush trap. Then he used Ice and Steroid as support base of fire. Notice how they still go down prone to cover. MD merc was just an available option B. And Ivan was another available option C. 

Edited July 14, 2023 by Uncle Nick

[sandman25dcsss]

23 minutes ago, chr_isso said:

then don't play the game. or just download the mod.

if you don't want to use your brain, why not just watch other poeple play games?

Lol. It is like "if you don't want to calculate 2+2...". I will repeat, it is trivial and biring, my brain is interested in other things.

[sandman25dcsss]

8 minutes ago, Uncle Nick said:

No, that is not what the player did in the video. He used his best merc Ivan first to setup ambush trap. Then he used Ice and Steroid as support base of fire. Notice how they still go down prone to cover. MD merc was just an available option B. And Ivan was another available option C. 

We should realize one thing: what you can do with CtH hidden, you can do with CtH shown too. But the opposite is not true. If it is not obvious, I can describe example.

[chr_isso]

3 minutes ago, sandman25dcsss said:

Lol. It is like "if you don't want to calculate 2+2...". I will repeat, it is trivial and biring, my brain is interested in other things.

If it's trivial, your brain will do it automatically once used to it.
and that's that JA2 was all about. You could estimate, because you had the feel for it.

no need to show percentages.

[Uncle Nick]

3 minutes ago, sandman25dcsss said:

We should realize one thing: what you can do with CtH hidden, you can do with CtH shown too. But the opposite is not true. If it is not obvious, I can describe example.

You know another example, in the Russsian Beta preview you shared to me? We see the Russian player, by co-incidence, setup the same very similar ambush scenario. The Russian player used best merc Ivan to explore, and Steroid and Kalyna as support base of fire. Steroid was on the .50 cal HMG, and Kalyna was above him with the sniper rifle.

 

Only mistake player made, Kalyna didn't go prone behind cover. After Kalyna got hit, she loss some health and her shot become in-effective. But that's Jagged Alliance luck for you. CtH numbers then becomes next to useless. Sometimes you also need the good luck to be on your side.       

[Rugged Coalition]

28 minutes ago, sandman25dcsss said:

Lol. It is like "if you don't want to calculate 2+2...". I will repeat, it is trivial and biring, my brain is interested in other things.

No, that's not what he said.

And again, it's the opposite. Adding CTH to JA tactical combat is changing the experience into math puzzle where the player is encouraged to start calculating (or pixel hunting) for the best CTH.

However... the combat doesn't seem that logical anymore, for instance it seems that single shots or burst fire doesn't affect the enemy, only machine guns can suppress the enemy. So a benefit from "desperate" shots has been removed that should be there, thus making it feel that a missed shot was a wasted shot.

[sandman25dcsss]

1 hour ago, chr_isso said:

If it's trivial, your brain will do it automatically once used to it.
and that's that JA2 was all about. You could estimate, because you had the feel for it.

no need to show percentages.

If it is trivial and boring, it should be automated.

[StoProGratis]

I'm a real person and I preferred no % but the way it was in vanilla game. You use Reaper if you want to shoot from distance, you use automatic weapons specialist to shot with burst and you use Buff if you want to hit the building behind the enemy. Like it's the thing you need to feel which Merc does what with certain AP. Getting 100% all the time is senseless to me. And that's how you play when you have CTH in %.

[sandman25dcsss]

57 minutes ago, Uncle Nick said:

You know another example, in the Russsian Beta preview you shared to me? We see the Russian player, by co-incidence, setup the same very similar ambush scenario. The Russian player used best merc Ivan to explore, and Steroid and Kalyna as support base of fire. Steroid was on the .50 cal HMG, and Kalyna was above him with the sniper rifle.

 

Only mistake player made, Kalyna didn't go prone behind cover. After Kalyna got hit, she loss some health and her shot become in-effective. But that's Jagged Alliance luck for you. CtH numbers then becomes next to useless. Sometimes you also need the good luck to be on your side.       

Sorry, I am not sure how it is related. I am saying that it does not matter how great tactics you invent with hidden CtH, it is still can be replicated with CtH shown. Proof is trivial: just ignore the number.

Now let's have a situation when you have 1 enemy, grenadier merc and sniper merc. Sniper can one-shot the enemy, but the enemy is behind cover and you have feeling that CtH is either 99% or 100% (quite good intuition, isn't it?). Grenadier merc can throw grenade to destroy the cover, but cannot kill the enemy.

What should you do with CtH shown?

1)If chance is 99%, you throw grenade and then sniper kills the enemy because now chance is 100%.

2)If chance is 100%, sniper just kills the enemy.

In all cases the enemy is dead, no grenades are wasted.

 

What would you do with CtH hidden?

1) If you assume the chance is 99%, you throw grenade and then sniper kills the enemy. But if your assumption is wrong and chance was really 100%, you wasted a grenade.

2)If you assume the chance is 100%, sniper shoots at the enemy. But if your assumption is wrong and chance was really 99%, you can miss and the enemy survives.

In all cases your decision can be wrong, you either wasted a grenade or let enemy survive.

I would call it gambling, but everyone else obviously would disagree.

[sandman25dcsss]

40 minutes ago, Rugged Coalition said:

No, that's not what he said.

And again, it's the opposite. Adding CTH to JA tactical combat is changing the experience into math puzzle where the player is encouraged to start calculating (or pixel hunting) for the best CTH.

However... the combat doesn't seem that logical anymore, for instance it seems that single shots or burst fire doesn't affect the enemy, only machine guns can suppress the enemy. So a benefit from "desperate" shots has been removed that should be there, thus making it feel that a missed shot was a wasted shot.

You are calculating or estimating it too. If you are not and it means you completely ignore chance to hit, you are a bad player shooting at enemy in smoke behind cover and feeling unlucky when the shots miss.

[sandman25dcsss]

Also my example with grenadier and sniper illustrates another problem caused by hidden CtH: decisions are taken based on roleplaying. Some players will throw grenade first, other players will shoot immediately. And as you can see it does not matter what you choose as both options can easily be wrong.

[chr_isso]

12 minutes ago, sandman25dcsss said:

Sorry, I am not sure how it is related. I am saying that it does not matter how great tactics you invent with hidden CtH, it is still can be replicated with CtH shown. Proof is trivial: just ignore the number.

Now let's have a situation when you have 1 enemy, grenadier merc and sniper merc. Sniper can one-shot the enemy, but the enemy is behind cover and you have feeling that CtH is either 99% or 100% (quite good intuition, isn't it?). Grenadier merc can throw grenade to destroy the cover, but cannot kill the enemy.

What should you do with CtH shown?

1)If chance is 99%, you throw grenade and then sniper kills the enemy because now chance is 100%.

2)If chance is 100%, sniper just kills the enemy.

In all cases the enemy is dead, no grenades are wasted.

 

What would you do with CtH hidden?

1) If you assume the chance is 99%, you throw grenade and then sniper kills the enemy. But if your assumption is wrong and chance was really 100%, you wasted a grenade.

2)If you assume the chance is 100%, sniper shoots at the enemy. But if your assumption is wrong and chance was really 99%, you can miss and the enemy survives.

In all cases your decision can be wrong, you either wasted a grenade or let enemy survive.

I would call it gambling, but everyone else obviously would disagree.

is is exactly about that.
are you willing to waste the grenade? it adds to immersion, if you want a 100% run in the game, ofc CtH will help.
But if you waste the grenade and the grenade you wasted would come handy later in the game -> this adds to the fun of the game. 
you used the granade, now live with it having one less.

it is about the gambling decision - this is the very core of JA.

[sandman25dcsss]

2 minutes ago, chr_isso said:

is is exactly about that.
are you willing to waste the grenade? it adds to immersion, if you want a 100% run in the game, ofc CtH will help.
But if you waste the grenade and the grenade you wasted would come handy later in the game -> this adds to the fun of the game. 
you used the granade, now live with it having one less.

it is about the gambling decision - this is the very core of JA.

And this is what I don't like because I hate unfair deaths and they are not fun for me. I am roguelike veteran and I love when after death I can look back and see where I made a mistake to avoid similar mistakes in future games.

Safe play is to risk wasting grenade. Then you die to next enemy because you no longer have a grenade. Fun for some, not for me.

[chr_isso]

2 minutes ago, sandman25dcsss said:

And this is what I don't like because I hate unfair deaths and they are not fun for me. I am roguelike veteran and I love when after death I can look back and see where I made a mistake to avoid similar mistakes in future games.

Safe play is to risk wasting grenade. Then you die to next enemy because you no longer have a grenade. Fun for some, not for me.

then JA is the wrong game for you.
if you're an perfectionist, look out for another game.
or install the CtH mod.

for me: i love the uncertainty, it's the thrill about it: Do I really need to throw the grenade? Will the sniper take him out before? Am I willing to take the risk or not?

that is what i love about the game. decision-making, reacting to different outcomes, uncertainty.
I can totally understand the approach, it can be devastatingly frustrating to not know where something took a wrong turn. but this is simply not JA.
JA is -> make a dicision, try it out, live with that decision.
Or reload your savegame and try a different approach.

[Uncle Nick]

1 hour ago, sandman25dcsss said:

...What should you do with CtH shown?

1)If chance is 99%, you throw grenade and then sniper kills the enemy because now chance is 100%.

2)If chance is 100%, sniper just kills the enemy.

In all cases the enemy is dead, no grenades are wasted...

1> CtH 99%? In Jagged Alliance grenade can malfunction, grenade can miss target because Ice can't throw, Mouse can refuse to theow the grenade. As Igor was sneaking towards the tower, the sniper displaced and climbed down the tower, we saw this happen in the Russian beta preview you posted. Sniper rifle can jam, or miss shot  due to bad weather.

2> CtH 100%? In Jagged Alliance, Kalyna can miss shot because she is injured, we saw this is Russian beta preview. And you had asked why sniper miss the shot? 

In Jagged Alliance, combat is unpredictable, you can't rely on CtH. In Jagged Alliance, you try more options to kill the enemy, put more shots on target, without getting your own mercs killed.   

[Rugged Coalition]

1 hour ago, sandman25dcsss said:

You are calculating or estimating it too. If you are not and it means you completely ignore chance to hit, you are a bad player shooting at enemy in smoke behind cover and feeling unlucky when the shots miss.

I'm asking myself if Ice can make this shot or not. If I, let's say "estimate", that the answer is yes, then I take the shot. (And in JA2, if the shot missed, it might make the enemy crouch or go prone, so you wouldn't feel like you wasted that shot.)

If they would have wanted to have CTH in JA1 or JA2 they would have added it. Despite looking similar on the surface level, the tactical combat in JA is _fundamentally_ a different experience from recent XCOM or any of its' several modern clones. Whether this is the case with JA3 remains to be seen.

It's difficult to articulate what this experience is (especially since English is not the first language for many of us), but this forum has plenty of examples of people trying to explain this.

Let's say you're a coach of a football team and it ends in a penalty shootout, who do you pick to take the shot? What if the player has been slightly injured? What if the player seems to be disturbed by the pressure and crowd? What if the player tells you that he doesn't want to get picked? What if it just hasn't been this player's day, maybe he already missed a penalty during the game? Or will you just check the statistics who has had most success on penalties and based on this pick the 5 best ranked players? Maybe ask Carlo Ancelotti.

JA is offering you the experience of being a squad leader. You make the decisions based on you being familiar with your mercs. Does JA3 expand on this? Unlikely. But people here, people who have played JA2 and feel that it offers something unique, don't want it to be reduced to be a glorified boardgame.

So sure, come tell us that a game that is generally considered one of the best games ever made, that you've never played, is at fault for not having CTH.

XCOM is _ok_, I'm not saying that simulation orientated strategy games are better than boardgame orientated, just different. And I happen to prefer the simulation approach. Just as many people prefer Paradox games over Firaxis 4X games.

I just generally feel disappointed whenever developers go with this boardgame approach, it seems unambitious. Sure, we have tooltips now, so we can add more modifiers there! But in my mind this just adds complexity, not depth. If there's a -1 to CTH because of a killed teammate, but +1 because of a scope attachment, it makes them both pointless. There's no human decision needed here, you can leave the decision for AI to calculate.

This is not an e-sport game, some like to min-max, but generally this is not a franchise about shifting meta and optimal plays.

I hope you understand a bit better my point of view into all this madness.

[sandman25dcsss]

@Rugged Coalition This is all good, but CtH is still in the game as devs said, it is just not shown.

 

@all

Sorry, I am not interested in discussions, it is waste of time and effort for everyone. 

[ninjalex]

3 hours ago, sandman25dcsss said:

Also my example with grenadier and sniper illustrates another problem caused by hidden CtH: decisions are taken based on roleplaying. Some players will throw grenade first, other players will shoot immediately. And as you can see it does not matter what you choose as both options can easily be wrong.

It's almost like there is some sort of...uncertainty in warfare.

Imagine that.

If you want an optimized math puzzle, I'd recommend chess.

But then again you've already said you've played MAXIMUM of 2 hours of JA2, so this is might not the genre for you.

Edited July 14, 2023 by ninjalex

[Rugged Coalition]

23 minutes ago, sandman25dcsss said:

@Rugged Coalition This is all good, but CtH is still in the game as devs said, it is just not shown.

We know that JA is not a full simulation, it's not deterministic (CTH 100% or 0%). There is RNG.

If you don't show CTH your brain makes up the stories why the shot hit or missed.

And with if you pile up enough systems and details on top of each other, at some point, it creates that lovely experience that is playing JA.

Thank you for the discussion. Let's see how JA3 measures up.

[StoProGratis]

You need to know your mercs to properly use them. JA2 is about feel not about counting chances to shoot. You can always miss that's why it's better to have more than one Merc pointing their guns in same direction or target.

[ninjalex]

I've had some frustrating firefights in JA2, but I'd go so far as to call it charming. It creates stories.

 

Sometimes you have a surgical night ops that everything clicks. And then you have to unleash 80% of your ammunition because it's too risky to close the distanse, so it's just taking pot shots at each other beyond a forest (as far as JA2 has "forests")

[GODSPEED]

4 hours ago, sandman25dcsss said:

decisions are taken based on roleplaying.

WOW! You just said it!!!!

This is why someone who comes here and argues 💩 they don't understand sounds like a teen arguing with his parents about something he doesn't know.

JAGGED ALLIANCE IS A ROLE PLAYING GAME!

[StoProGratis]

16 minutes ago, ninjalex said:

I've had some frustrating firefights in JA2, but I'd go so far as to call it charming. It creates stories.

 

Sometimes you have a surgical night ops that everything clicks. And then you have to unleash 80% of your ammunition because it's too risky to close the distanse, so it's just taking pot shots at each other beyond a forest (as far as JA2 has "forests")

Exactly. The moments like you shoot M79 in one enemy but miss him and blow into pieces 3 enemies behind them that you haven't seen yet are memorable.

[sandman25dcsss]

26 minutes ago, GODSPEED said:

WOW! You just said it!!!!

This is why someone who comes here and argues 💩 they don't understand sounds like a teen arguing with his parents about something he doesn't know.

JAGGED ALLIANCE IS A ROLE PLAYING GAME!

You are close to realizing why there was a poll thread about roleplaying/strategy/tactics created yesterday. Unfortunately the poll shows JA fans have no idea what they are doing. They make decisions based on roleplaying and call it tactics.