Helmet or night vision goggle? They did the same thing as JA:RAGE

[Xeth Nyrrow]

The real irony here is that having to pick one or the other creates a tactical choice that didn't exist in the previous games. It also makes the game a little bit more difficult, both things I personally appreciate. Does it smack in the face of realism? It definitely does but this isn't meant to be a very realistic game in the first place.

[sandman25dcsss]

If games were realistic, we wouldn't be playing them. Too much of unfun activities. Though being able to break enemy NVG by lucky shot could be fun.

[cane]

On 7/8/2023 at 7:46 PM, sandman25dcsss said:

As a new player I don't care how it was in JA1 or 2. Meaningful decisions are great, now player needs to choose which item is more useful. I've been told JA players like challenge and it is weird to see complaints about inability to equip all the best items together. Assume testers tried it and found heavy helmet with night vision goggles doesn't work well because it is equipped by every merc in every night mission which is boring.

It's already a decision. NVG would obviously be pricey and not super common so you would still have to decide whether to invest and how heavily.

Go play JA2 and you will see it's plenty of challenging even if you can equip all the best items together, especially getting your hand on all the best items in the first place.

 

Hating on long time fans being disappointed is a bad look and I'm sure you are better than that

[sandman25dcsss]

5 minutes ago, cane said:

It's already a decision. NVG would obviously be pricey and not super common so you would still have to decide whether to invest and how heavily.

Go play JA2 and you will see it's plenty of challenging even if you can equip all the best items together, especially getting your hand on all the best items in the first place.

 

Hating on long time fans being disappointed is a bad look and I'm sure you are better than that

Where do you see hate??? I am saying that "how it was before" should not prevent series from becoming better in some aspects.

What you described about difficulty, price, availability still applies to situation when heavy helmet cannot be combined with NVG. Decision-making is clearly harder when there is no optimal gear.

[LoboNocturno]

Yes it was just like that in RAGE, you either see better at night or get a fatal headshot which would put you to sleep.

[Uncle Nick]

Storm in a teacup? We can wear helmet and make do with night vision scope on the rifle (JAFlashback).

Maybe we just wear the NVG with no helmet. Maybe enemy will be unable to see you good enough to target your head? Probably, we worry over nothing.

[Dr.Kuhn]

On 7/10/2023 at 12:24 PM, sandman25dcsss said:

Where do you see hate??? I am saying that "how it was before" should not prevent series from becoming better in some aspects.

This decision by the dev team is arguably not better. It's a completely made up restriction that ONLY exists in this game. This isn't for the sake of "fun"; it's because the dev team clearly made the basis of "needless complexity" or "unusual amounts of scarcity" a core tenant to the game's architecture.

[sandman25dcsss]

9 minutes ago, Dr.Kuhn said:

This decision by the dev team is arguably not better. It's a completely made up restriction that ONLY exists in this game. This isn't for the sake of "fun"; it's because the dev team clearly made the basis of "needless complexity" or "unusual amounts of scarcity" a core tenant to the game's architecture.

I think you treat "better" as "fun", but it is a broader term. Is it fun when you instantly kill all enemies during ambush when initiating combat (I have just read your recent message from another thread)? For some players, yes. Is it balanced and good? I don't think so, at least not for me. The same happens with having optimal items. Is it fun to combine all properties like night vision, big defense, protection from flash and noise into a single item? For some players, yes. Is it balanced and good? I don't think so, at least not for me.

So eventually it is more about player preferences than about "needless complexity" or "unusual amounts of scarcity".

Edited July 12, 2023 by sandman25dcsss

[Dr.Kuhn]

1 minute ago, sandman25dcsss said:

I think you treat "better" as "fun", but it is a broader term. Is it fun when you instantly kill all enemies during ambush when initiating combat (I have just read your recent message from another thread)? For some players, yes. Is it balanced and good? I don't think so, at least not for me. The same happens with having optimal items. Is it fun to combine all properties like night vision, big defense, protection from flash and noise into a single item? For some players, yes. Is it balanced and good? I don't think so, at least not for me.

So eventually it is more about player preferences than about "needless complexity" or "unusual amounts of scarcity".

Which players? If you think I enjoy having my small squad completely surrounded in night combat with inferior NVG's is a blast, I'd ask for your dealer's number. Jagged alliance has always been trying to find an optimal route where you totally dominate the enemy team with superior strategies because you're ALWAYS outnumbered and don't have the raw firepower the enemies do entering a sector. JA 1.13 introduced new methods in this regard as well, with the addition of the "spy" ability. Being able to potentially disable the alarm in Alma to get the rocket rifle could be a massive jump in firepower, all for being able to avoid combat completely (albeit temporarily). Things like that are interesting. Solving the puzzle is interesting. Arbitrary combat designs in a game that goes completely turn based, while simultaneously allowing the enemies to move to protect themselves....isn't actually fun.

[sandman25dcsss]

1 minute ago, Dr.Kuhn said:

Which players? If you think I enjoy having my small squad completely surrounded in night combat with inferior NVG's is a blast, I'd ask for your dealer's number. Jagged alliance has always been trying to find an optimal route where you totally dominate the enemy team with superior strategies because you're ALWAYS outnumbered and don't have the raw firepower the enemies do entering a sector. JA 1.13 introduced new methods in this regard as well, with the addition of the "spy" ability. Being able to potentially disable the alarm in Alma to get the rocket rifle could be a massive jump in firepower, all for being able to avoid combat completely (albeit temporarily). Things like that are interesting. Solving the puzzle is interesting. Arbitrary combat designs in a game that goes completely turn based, while simultaneously allowing the enemies to move to protect themselves....isn't actually fun.

Jagged Alliance is not unique in that regard, there are many games with similar design i.e. you are outnumbered, outgunned and sometimes even low on time. Often the easiest solution consists in abusing questionable mechanics, but it does not mean those mechanics should not be improved with reasoning "doing so would make game harder for some players". If the game is too hard, there is usually an option to switch to easier difficulty level. I just don't see a puzzle if you prepare an ambush and then initiate combat to kill several enemies before combat even starts, it is trivial and fun just a couple of times (for me).

[5Cents]

In the 90s (JA3s timeline) it was not so common to have helmets usable with night vision googles, like today.

It was not impossible to wear this combination. But even some elite units still didnt have any night vision gear.
NVGs 3 Gen. were state of the art and not as good, like they are today.

The civilian or black markets (for mil vers) werent flooded with NVs of any generations like today and specially not with these NVGs you can wear with helmet and the worldwide-use was rather rare.
So talking about realism, to find NVGs (with an overwhelming advanced advantage) & in large numbers on an 1990 battlefield somewhere in africa bushes (without any US troops presence), would be a bit inappropriate.

We are talking about 1990s mercs. Neither the kind of eastern 2023 mercs, nor 90s Chuck Norris Delta-Force Robots or Universal Soldier types, supplied by Uncle Sam (you can easily create in 1.13).

Adding the fact, EVERY merc actually HAD to wear a radio (-headset) to knowing each others positions (at least).

And did somebody EVER thought about HOW the devil they should communicate with you, the commander 😆😉

But complaining about realism in JA3, well..what about the fantastic weapon mixes adding the resulting ammunitions in JA2, what was a real nightmare and almost death sentence for any real army.

Only examples, but one should stop thinking about reality, regarding Jagged games. Everything else was modding (the kind of guessing to near a relation to real-stats).

And when devs decided its not possible to go with helmet AND NVGs together (because of balance-reasons), im fine with that.

Modders will create their own visions, like ever anyway.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 12, 2023 by 5Cents

[Pjendz]

Well.. I would say similar approach is in HC Shooter games like tarkov, you can have highly defensive helmet, with shield and stuff but no headphones or googles are avail.. or lighter helmet with everything.. So if the wording is correct 100% than it can make sense to me.. Tanky Ramboid will go no googles, while all my crew will deffo go nvg if possible same as in ja2 xD

[Uncle Nick]

People claim to be expert on NVG; but nobody talks about laser pointers. If you're going to shoot with NVG, you're also going to need ir or laser pointers. Then there's problem with lasers, as soon as you switch them on, the enemy with NVG can also see where you are. 

[KM131]

10 hours ago, 5Cents said:

In the 90s (JA3s timeline) it was not so common to have helmets usable with night vision googles, like today.

It was not impossible to wear this combination. ...

 

 

 

 

 

in the late 90s during my conscription, we had NVGs that can be worn under the helmet. same thing with a gasmask.

[5Cents]

Nevertheless, military ones plus lasers, werent easy accessable for civilians or paramilitary. Having NV as a soldier depended on your nationality, back in the mid 90s.🤷🏼‍♂️
But however, for shooting, personally i liked the bulky Night-Vision-Scope much better, cause of handling and aiming...but i always took my helmet off😅...
Maybe the devs implemented that NVScope option, we will see. Would be easily modable, if not.

Funnywise in JA3 everyone can see the laserpointer shine. But i like it..😊
Gives me that

Feeling 😆

Gasmasks actually paired with helmet since WWI, because they were meant to do so.

Funny question: What about implemantion of IR-Camo in Jagged...😂😅🤦🏼‍♂️

Edited July 13, 2023 by 5Cents

[ninjalex]

I mean, you can always rationalize why it makes sense, but having both helmet and NV-gear/sunglasses has been in this game series for a while. I personally love outfitting my mercs and seeing them end up with super gear. And making trade-offs can be a tactical choice, I'd still rather have more slots and more to fill up.

[5Cents]

Only mentioned these points, because people found the new system unrealistic. But i also understand your reasons to dislike it..they are understandable ^^

[Rugged Coalition]

On 7/8/2023 at 8:46 PM, sandman25dcsss said:

As a new player I don't care how it was in JA1 or 2. Meaningful decisions are great, now player needs to choose which item is more useful. I've been told JA players like challenge and it is weird to see complaints about inability to equip all the best items together. Assume testers tried it and found heavy helmet with night vision goggles doesn't work well because it is equipped by every merc in every night mission which is boring.

So let's say you have two mercs left in base training militia and the enemy attacks (or you're doing some night-ops with two mercs). You have NV goggles and a helmet.

In JA3 you either:

1. Equip Merc A with helmet and Merc B with NV goggles
2. Equip Merc A with NV goggles and Merc B with helmet

In JA2 you either:

1. Equip Merc A with helmet and Merc B with NV goggles
2. Equip Merc A with NV goggles and Merc B with helmet
3. Equip Merc A with helmet and NV goggles and Merc B with nothing
4. Equip Merc A with nothing and Merc B with helmet and NV goggles

So I don't think JA2 has less "meaningful decisions" in all scenarios here... I think JA2 offers also better chance for emergent storytelling, because of course you load up your best merc with the best gear and then the merc without gear has to do all the heroics.

Besides JA2 already has this "choice" with the gas mask and NV goggles which you can't equip at the same time. (And there's also slot for extended ear, I assume this item was just removed from JA3?)

In JA2 you could also fallback to using flares if you don't have NV goggles, are these in JA3? And getting the best armor and NV goggles for everybody (and maintaining them in perfect condition) is not trivial.

I think JA3 is discouraging night-ops with this decision, it's telling the player that it's better to do all combat during daytime because of this arbitrary limitation.

[sandman25dcsss]

1 minute ago, Rugged Coalition said:

So let's say you have two mercs left in base training militia and the enemy attacks (or you're doing some night-ops with two mercs). You have NV goggles and a helmet.

In JA3 you either:

1. Equip Merc A with helmet and Merc B with NV goggles
2. Equip Merc A with NV goggles and Merc B with helmet

In JA2 you either:

1. Equip Merc A with helmet and Merc B with NV goggles
2. Equip Merc A with NV goggles and Merc B with helmet
3. Equip Merc A with helmet and NV goggles and Merc B with nothing
4. Equip Merc A with nothing and Merc B with helmet and NV goggles

So I don't think JA2 has less "meaningful decisions" in all scenarios here... I think JA2 offers also better chance for emergent storytelling, because of course you load up your best merc with the best gear and then the merc without gear has to do all the heroics.

Besides JA2 already has this "choice" with the gas mask and NV goggles which you can't equip at the same time. (And there's also slot for extended ear, I assume this item was just removed from JA3?)

In JA2 you could also fallback to using flares if you don't have NV goggles, are these in JA3? And getting the best armor and NV goggles for everybody (and maintaining them in perfect condition) is not trivial.

I think JA3 is discouraging night-ops with this decision, it's telling the player that it's better to do all combat during daytime because of this arbitrary limitation.

And then late game you have:

JA2:

1) all 6 mercs have heavy helmet and NVG during night operations

JA3:

7 variants for N=0 to 6 where N  specific mercs have heavy helmet, others have NVG

If we try to change which specific mercs get heavy helmet we will get even more variants.

 

 

 

[Rugged Coalition]

51 minutes ago, sandman25dcsss said:

And then late game you have:

JA2:

1) all 6 mercs have heavy helmet and NVG during night operations

JA3:

7 variants for N=0 to 6 where N  specific mercs have heavy helmet, others have NVG

If we try to change which specific mercs get heavy helmet we will get even more variants.

So you agree that in early to mid-game JA2 can offer more meaningful choices regarding this mechanic?

Aren't you worried that JA3 incentivizes the player to skip night missions entirely?

Typically in the late game JA2 you would have a dozen or so mercs in three squads or more scattered all across the map. Items would also be scattered all around the map. If you have all maxed out gear for a character, you have earned it. (Trust me, you rarely want to waste compound 18 on spectra helmets in JA2, so you wouldn't have the best possible head armor even in end game.) Oh... and it doesn't make you OP.

[Jaywalker]

15 hours ago, Rugged Coalition said:

In JA3 you either:

1. Equip Merc A with helmet and Merc B with NV goggles
2. Equip Merc A with NV goggles and Merc B with helmet

In JA2 you either:

1. Equip Merc A with helmet and Merc B with NV goggles
2. Equip Merc A with NV goggles and Merc B with helmet
3. Equip Merc A with helmet and NV goggles and Merc B with nothing
4. Equip Merc A with nothing and Merc B with helmet and NV goggles

Right... Now let's advance the time forward by a few Bobby Ray's shipments, and what you get is:

JA2:

1. Give everyone everything, cause there's no reason not to

vs.

JA3:

1. Give NVG to the sniper so they can shoot and a helmet to the scout so they don't get killed
2. Give NVG to the scout so they have more reliable takedowns and helmet to sniper for safekeeping
3. Skip the NVG altogether because it doesn't stack with Night Ops
4. Give the NVG to the person with a red-dot so they hit with the opening volley and the others can benefit from the Marked status

[Rugged Coalition]

22 hours ago, Jaywalker said:

Right... Now let's advance the time forward by a few Bobby Ray's shipments, and what you get is:

There was an implication that JA2 "headgear freedom" didn't offer any choice or offered less choice. I simply gave an example where this wasn't the case.

I also wrote about the late game in the message above yours... to add to that, I checked a savegame on day 70+ and Bobby Ray's didn't have any NVG on sale, so I don't think it's trivial to get the absolutely best gear for all mercs later in JA2.

In JA1 you had only one slot for weapon accessories, so you could either attach a scope or a silencer. Is this a better system than in JA2 which allows both of these to be attached at the same time?

[Jaywalker]

1 hour ago, Rugged Coalition said:

In JA1 you had only one slot for weapon accessories, so you could either attach a scope or a silencer. Is this a better system than in JA2 which allows both of these to be attached at the same time?

The name of the game here is "meaningful choice" and in those terms, it is absolutely better than just making it about the logistics of giving everyone both.

Silencers would be an example of this problem in JA3, but by the time training-wheels come off (and the parts to make them are plentiful enough to get one for everybody) they do actually compete directly with other attachments: Advanced Compensators and Recoil Boosters.