Helmet or night vision goggle? They did the same thing as JA:RAGE

[Carmine]

In DevDiary 12 they said "If you equip night vision goggles, you may gain the upper hand at night, but is it worth it to give up the opportunity to protect your merc with a heavy helmet?".

But even in JA1 mercs can wear three things on head ! 🙃

The solution is to turn the helmet and eye equipment into combinable items.(MOD) 😎

 

 

 

[Dr.Kuhn]

I half expected us to rely on the modding community to make this game closer to the actual Jagged alliance experience, but I was also equally hoping we wouldn't need them. Alas, you're right in that this bizarre design inclusion just seems like one of those "blind folded dart at a dart board" decision and makes literally no sense. This arbitrary restriction makes literally no sense since you could equip a helmet and nvg in Ja2, either version, AND you can do so in real life, so they just made up a fictional scenario where both are in conflict and not allowed in this game. 

How much it impacts the game will depend on the rest of the game and what we find and how we can interact in the dark but purely from the design stance alone, this wasn't a necessary design decision and feels like there was a disconnect in the studio.

[Solaris_Wave]

It does sound like an idea to create some tactical option, without it being even necessary. You can have this OR you can have this. It was that line of thinking that made me quickly stop playing the XCOM reboot. I can either have a medkit or a pistol or a grenade. Why not all three? The original X-COM games let me do it. Real life allows you to do it. Why did the XCOM reboot have to make it more complicated by forcing more simplicity? Who is the genius that came up with that idea and why weren't they fired into the Sun?

There really needs to be more than one slot for the head. Helmets are common and NVGs can often be clipped onto the front and then pulled down over the eyes. I would have liked to have seen other items too. Standard goggles or eyewear would be handy in the event of dust storms, intense sunlight or lowering the effects of muzzle flashes, especially at night. Ear defenders are another possibility. Gas masks would be important if CS gas or some lethal agent is used. Face masks or shemagh scarves are also useful to protect against dust and smoke.

[GODSPEED]

6 minutes ago, Solaris_Wave said:

You can have this OR you can have this. It was that line of thinking that made me quickly stop playing the XCOM reboot. I can either have a medkit or a pistol or a grenade. Why not all three? The original X-COM games let me do it.

That ^

Jagged Alliance 1 & 2 were about FREEDOM to approach a situation as prepared, as unprepared, as serious or as half-hearted as YOU wanted. Walking with an overloaded merc carrying an LMG, some explosives, a tool kit and a G3 in hand is MY choice. I pay the consequences of such a choice with his stamina, movement speed and exhaustion. Still, it remains MY CHOICE.

The modern take on X-com, is good in it's own way. It was oriented to be more of a difficult turn-based puzzle game.
I've got nothing against that... until this is what JA3 becomes.

Jagged Alliance 2 = FREEDOM in a 'sandbox' world.
X-Com = Tightly controlled environment to control the difficulty level.

[Raeven]

I think it sounds like an interesting tradeoff to have to make.

[GODSPEED]

1 minute ago, Raeven said:

I think it sounds like an interesting tradeoff to have to make.

This isn't about the choice being interesting or not.

This is about, why are they telling us they have such deep respect for Jagged Alliance 2 and want to make a game to honour it.. but then turn their backs on what made JA2 special, and instead make a game that resembles others games more.

No one here is saying the a game with these choices can't be good. But it's the same as if a company came in, bought the rights to the Ferrari licence, say they love what Ferrari is about. They really understand it and the passion behind it.. and then go ahead and produce a 4x4 offroader.

There is not problem with a 4x4 Offroader. I love those... but they go against the expectations they themselves setup.

[Raeven]

Omg dude. Listen to yourself. You are saying they bring dishonor upon the franchise by not allowing you to wear two pieces of headgear at one time. 

This *not* a big deal. 

[Stuurminator]

They specifically use the term "heavy helmet". It seems to me that only certain types of headgear (the most protective, and presumably, the most bulky) are incompatible with NVGs.

[GODSPEED]

11 minutes ago, Raeven said:

Omg dude. Listen to yourself. You are saying they bring dishonor

???

[Solaris_Wave]

Maybe 'dishonour' is going too far. I don't think Haemimont are doing as such. However, there are decisions to simplify things that didn't really need simplification. They were not complex to start with. Two or more headgear slots would not have been difficult to add and they would not have been complicated for people to handle.

It is about versatility and as @GODSPEED says, freedom of choice. It is more realistic to have that flexibility and it gives your merc more protection and enhanced combat capability, if you choose to equip them as such. Weight will be a factor. I want to work that out for myself. I don't want to be told that I can't do it when logic dictates that I should be able to.

[Solaris_Wave]

7 minutes ago, Stuurminator said:

They specifically use the term "heavy helmet". It seems to me that only certain types of headgear (the most protective, and presumably, the most bulky) are incompatible with NVGs.

I did notice that and wondered whether a 'heavy helmet' was just a figure of speech or a different item. Maybe there was reference to heavier helmets with fixed face plates. I am hoping that to be the case. However, the single head slot suggests otherwise.

[DougS2K]

I've been saying all along that the inventory system is just to basic. They should have taken inspiration from JA2 1.13 and done inventory similarly. Sure we didn't need custom vests and pouches but they should have factored in weight and size of items, made mercs carry their own ammo instead of this magical squad supplies allowing mercs to carry infinite ammo, there should be multiple slots on head for helmet and NVG's/sunglasses, allowed different sized backpacks, etc. Suiting up your mercs and outfitting them for certain roles adds a lot to the gameplay IMO and they really stripped this part of the game down and made it way to simple. 😔

[Elder III]

They are trying to appeal to a broader market then the 1.13 mod group. The game needs to be a financial success above all else if we want there to be more future JA content.

That's fine imo... I think that most likely there will be mods for JA3 that bring more of a mil-sim aspect to the game for those who feel the game needs deeper strategy and choice options.

I will probably try a bunch of different mods for JA3 at some point, but I anticipate enjoying my first few playthroughs as is. 🙂

[DougS2K]

48 minutes ago, Elder III said:

They are trying to appeal to a broader market then the 1.13 mod group. The game needs to be a financial success above all else if we want there to be more future JA content.

That's fine imo... I think that most likely there will be mods for JA3 that bring more of a mil-sim aspect to the game for those who feel the game needs deeper strategy and choice options.

I will probably try a bunch of different mods for JA3 at some point, but I anticipate enjoying my first few playthroughs as is. 🙂

JA3 is not just a change from 1.13. In stock JA2 you had multiple head slots, stamina, weight for items, mercs had to carry their own ammo, etc. All 1.13 really did was add different backpacks and customizable chest and leg rigs with pouches. Everything else was in the stock JA2 game which has now been stripped out of JA3. This is a regression from the inventory system is stock JA2. You can see the stock inventory system here and see how weight and having to carry your ammo is a factor.

[D13]

In JA2 it was nice to get new NVGs and sunglasses, but once every merc had everything, it was only a matter of mindlessly switching between NVG and sunglasses depending on day/night. 1.13 even added a hotkey for the team-wide switch. Was there ever anything to gain from not wearing the obviously correct item? With the new system in JA3, there's something new to think about while preparing for battle.

[Carmine]

闭门造车

[Tuckus]

Overdesigned. Makes no sense in the context of JA1 and JA2. 

[Dr.Kuhn]

5 hours ago, Elder III said:

They are trying to appeal to a broader market then the 1.13 mod group. The game needs to be a financial success above all else if we want there to be more future JA content.

That's fine imo... I think that most likely there will be mods for JA3 that bring more of a mil-sim aspect to the game for those who feel the game needs deeper strategy and choice options.

I will probably try a bunch of different mods for JA3 at some point, but I anticipate enjoying my first few playthroughs as is. 🙂

Appeal to whom? They already abandoned the Chance to hit numbers thing, and according to the devs during one of their live streams, to a lot of disagreements and dismay. Go on steam right now and zip through their forums for JA3; you'll see endless crying about having no magical percentage number. 

So if it isn't the xcom crowd they're aiming for, who's this mysterious "other" demographic they're aiming at that'll give them financial success? We need to face the facts and accept that JA3 won't be a game of the year or a block buster hit. If I were Haeminmont Games, I'd be focused solely on the Jagged alliance diehards and keep them happy. The genre is already niche enough and I'd hope they didn't set their financial targets TOO high. This is a game that the long time fans will give a chance and might be aggressively forgiving because we haven't gotten anything worth mentioning in 23 years minus the 1.13 mod.

[Elder III]

4 hours ago, Dr.Kuhn said:

Appeal to whom? They already abandoned the Chance to hit numbers thing, and according to the devs during one of their live streams, to a lot of disagreements and dismay. Go on steam right now and zip through their forums for JA3; you'll see endless crying about having no magical percentage number. 

So if it isn't the xcom crowd they're aiming for, who's this mysterious "other" demographic they're aiming at that'll give them financial success? We need to face the facts and accept that JA3 won't be a game of the year or a block buster hit. If I were Haeminmont Games, I'd be focused solely on the Jagged alliance diehards and keep them happy. The genre is already niche enough and I'd hope they didn't set their financial targets TOO high. This is a game that the long time fans will give a chance and might be aggressively forgiving because we haven't gotten anything worth mentioning in 23 years minus the 1.13 mod.

CTH never existed in JA1 or JA2 without mods installed. Therefore nothing whatsoever was abandoned.

Beyond that I'll just say that I'm willing to agree to disagree with you.

[ShadowMagic]

55 minutes ago, Elder III said:

CTH never existed in JA1 or JA2 without mods installed. Therefore nothing whatsoever was abandoned.

I fully agree with @Dr.Kuhn.

Haemimont have to make up their mind as of what their targetted audience will be. Since, like I have stated before, the current game is a mixture of just about nothing special. Not aiming at that diehard classic JA experience nor Xcom nor any other related TBS game but a hybrid that might just not turn out all too great when seeing that the potential customer base is pretty devided already.

But with a little more than 1 week before launch I dont believe much is going to change and it's up to the gods.

To get back on topic.. as with current explosions and running animations, not able to wear both a helmet and NVG is a design error if you ask me.

Edited July 6, 2023 by ShadowMagic

[Claypl]

Personally I'm not bother with the explosions and animations limitations, but definitely not stoked about nvg/helmet superficial limitation.

[Jaywalker]

1 hour ago, ShadowMagic said:

Haemimont have to make up their mind as of what their targetted audience will be.

Wasteland 2 and 3.

So far from what is shown, this game is beat for beat a Wasteland 3.
Their target audience is the people who never played JA1 or JA2 but want to jump onto the hipster bandwagon of "appreciating a cult classic"; just like Wasteland 2 did for people who never even heard of the original Wasteland.
They are hoping to be a success like Wasteland 2 was and springboard that into a better/bigger game (like Wasteland 3 was to Wasteland 2).

Edited July 6, 2023 by Jaywalker

[sandman25dcsss]

As a new player I don't care how it was in JA1 or 2. Meaningful decisions are great, now player needs to choose which item is more useful. I've been told JA players like challenge and it is weird to see complaints about inability to equip all the best items together. Assume testers tried it and found heavy helmet with night vision goggles doesn't work well because it is equipped by every merc in every night mission which is boring.

[cane]

On 7/5/2023 at 7:53 PM, Solaris_Wave said:

It does sound like an idea to create some tactical option, without it being even necessary. You can have this OR you can have this. It was that line of thinking that made me quickly stop playing the XCOM reboot. I can either have a medkit or a pistol or a grenade. Why not all three? The original X-COM games let me do it. Real life allows you to do it. Why did the XCOM reboot have to make it more complicated by forcing more simplicity? Who is the genius that came up with that idea and why weren't they fired into the Sun?

There really needs to be more than one slot for the head. Helmets are common and NVGs can often be clipped onto the front and then pulled down over the eyes. I would have liked to have seen other items too. Standard goggles or eyewear would be handy in the event of dust storms, intense sunlight or lowering the effects of muzzle flashes, especially at night. Ear defenders are another possibility. Gas masks would be important if CS gas or some lethal agent is used. Face masks or shemagh scarves are also useful to protect against dust and smoke.

 

Nicely said! It echoes my own sentiment about the new Xcom games. A lack of freedom of choice, you either go with A, B or C. In old X-com you could use your strong soldiers to carry a lot of extra stuff and investing extra money into extra utility should be a possibility, not a question of whether you bring X or Y with you.

 

I feel like this game is gonna fall short of the mark, too much influence by neuXcom. At least we don't have to suffer with a 2AP system, that has to be the biggest damage neuXcom has done to the turn based genre.

[Jaywalker]

Honestly, I'm fine with the NVG or helmet.

Not all helmets support headsets or NVG's being worn with/mounted onto them, so there is a precedent in realism for it, and more importantly it shifts the use of NVG's from always playing catch-up with the enemy (elite enemies in JA2 upgrade all their gear, all at once, and eventually they will always have the best NVG's, and they will have them before you do) to an actual strategic decision that alters the tactics you use.