Can we load closed bolt guns to +1 capacity?

[Nanashi]

This "detail" (really a critical piece of firearms operation) always seems to get left out in most video games and is really, really odd that it was omitted in Jagged Alliance 2. Will JA3 fix this mistake?

[SWi74]

Any gun, really. It's just the very basics of firearms. They shouldn't let people work on games if they've never been at a range or don't understand the whole chambering cycle...

[Low_K]

I misread and though you talked about Space Marine Boltguns 😄 ("Space Marine" and "Boltgun" are (c) by Games Workshop Ltd. All rights recerved, (tm), (R) etc., etc.)

I doubt it. There is a reason for that I think as it is so trivial for the masses, why bother with it. Only gun-fanatics know how many bullets fit in a certain gun and know to add one in the chamber, the majority of players just look at the amount of bullets the Devs gave them and say; "Great, I have 23 bullets left". I think we can blame Hollywood; there magazines are endless and they only need to reload when there is a plot twist.

I highly doubt they will detail weapons that much, but you stating it here might get picked up by the Devs (if they read the Forum, as I haven't seen a Dev around here), so they might add it. You never know!

[SWi74]

I don't mean just capacity should be increased by one. The feature that is important to game mechanics is that semiautomatic weapons chamber a round by either firing OR manually. If your gun is at 0 it takes a lot more time to load. If you fire until at least one bullet is left, reloading is reduced to just putting a new mag in - no manual cambering, or cocking.

[Low_K]

Ah now I understand. Yeah I think the answer will be the same; I think it is a trivial feature for the masses. But again, if the Devs read this, they might be temnpted to add this feature.

[Nanashi]

20 hours ago, Low_K said:

Ah now I understand. Yeah I think the answer will be the same; I think it is a trivial feature for the masses. But again, if the Devs read this, they might be temnpted to add this feature.

It's not a trivial feature, it's a basic part of how almost all magazine fed firearms (some SMGs and the Browning Automatic Rifle being the main exceptions) work.

(Yes, I know the magazine in the drawing only has 7 currently in it, but it can hold 😎

[SWi74]

No, I do agree that it requires some more work to implement and some people might not notice it at all, but a lot of games with less faithful weapon realism have done it and it is quite rewarding for people who want to get super tactical and/or maximize realistic feel. A real pro (as Raider should be) would do a tactical reload before the weapon is empty and put away the magazine with its remaining rounds instead of discarding it, too.

[GODSPEED]

JA2 never touted itself as being a realistic recreation of weaponry.

 

I am guessing that most comments here, especially the ones who don't understand why not everyone is a gun nut, come from the USA, with very liberal gun laws.

Here, in Canada, owning a pistol is EXTREMELY regulated, the only way to own, transport and use one is to join a gun club with high yearly fees. To bring that pistol to a range, you have to file papers that need to be registered with the RCMP and accepted. You CANNOT even stop,by a drive-thru or gas your car on your way to the gun range.

 

So imagine any other firearms pike assault rifles. And our laws are very far from the strictest in the world. It's real easy to buy, own and have firearms and ammunition here.

 

So expecting a team of devs being required to learn about guns because they like developing games?

 

Be a little realistic please.

[SWi74]

Errr, wait, what?

Between the 10 people barely writing here you think most are American gun nuts? I didn't think that about any of you so I guess that leaves me.

No, I'm not from the USA, nor do I wish we had their gun laws (it's a horrible idea). I'm eastern European, we have the same restrictions as you OR harsher (less large wildlife to hunt and protect from out here).

No, I'm not a gun nut and don't think most people here are. I know about guns as much as an average guy knows about cars. Would you call a person who knows some cylinders rotate a crank a fuel blood?

I'm interested in design, it's what I do. Gun design is interesting, game design - a LOT more so. I don't know that much about guns and quite a portion of it I've learnt FROM JA2 and 1.13. Mike's gun fires caseless rounds... it's a real design, it exists and it's super interesting and I know about it because of JA2, not the other way around.

Either way, there are going to be tons of toxic comments from people who know nothing about anything, especially after launch. Don't you think it's early for you to try and manage expectations or shield them from overwhelming ideas? I don't see the need to be realistic in an unpopulated friendly discussion, either. Go nuts, describe your vision, no dev cares, we're not even backers on this one. They will decide what is feasible and what's profitable.

6 hours ago, GODSPEED said:

So expecting a team of devs being required to learn about guns because they like developing games?

I have to say "yes" to this one. Artists have to draw people and guns here. If they don't know ANY anatomy and BASIC gun mechanics, I promise, the game would suck. They don't "like developing games", it's how they make a living. Bear's Pit like to develop games and they did a stellar work on the weaponry.

This topic refers to the VERY foundation of gun categorization. It's like "1. what item?" => "a gun", "what type?" => "a semi automatic". It's not difficult to understand, nor difficult to code.

Edited September 23, 2021 by SWi74

[Kordanor]

I think in a interview long ago the original developers stated they didnt own any guns, but I might be mistaken here. But just makes sense, they are canadians.

When I went to the German Army like 20 years ago and I was talking about different ammo types, they were surprised I knew...and I got that info from Jagged Alliance. 😛

That said, I don't think that the +1 is a big deal and I am also not sure how common it is among professionals to run around with a bullet in the champer AND a full magazine as its likely a security issue. And when I have been looking for it, the first article I found was a shot which was fired in accident. So it can make sense that even if a gun can in theory have 30+1 shots to not have this +1 shot, unless you also want to simulate accidental shots or some extra time when loading a gun. As you would need to load the gun, put the shot into the champer, take out the magazine again, replace the bullet and put it back in.

Correct me if I got anything wrong.

[GODSPEED]

1 hour ago, Kordanor said:

Correct me if I got anything wrong.

Over 20 years of being a kind of gun nut; the +1 in the chamber is often contested. Simply because you are walking around with a live round in the chamber AT ALL TIMES, when gun security will advise to never leave one in the chamber.

I also assumed the ones requesting this feature to be american, which wasn't right of me to do, simply because it's an idea that is really highly promoted by american competitive shooters who deal with controlled environments, or also the more hardcore survivalists and home defence types.
 

2 hours ago, SWi74 said:

Errr, wait, what?

I apologize if I came on strong, wasn't my intention. I wrote hastily without re-reading my text much.. again, really sorry.
It was also wrong of me to assume being a nationality.

All I wanted to say is that it is a little bit too much to expect the +1 round.

The VAST majority of video games don't even take their 3D images from actual real guns... but usually from Airsoft/Cheap Replicas and just images they find online. It is unfortunate, I know. I've yet to find games that have very exact recreation of real firearms. JA 2 did it okay, because of them being 2D pictures. Often it's due to licensing issues, but also simple ignorance of the firearms.

Where I live, I would never even discuss firearms with anyone.. as 99% of ppl would really think you are weird or "dangerous" because you own or even like guns. I seriously do not disagree with you that those who design them SHOULD know more... but, I think expecting these things from a dev that makes games like Surviving Mars (no violence), and Tropico, and other non-gun games (only exception being Omerta) not too be too inclined on the knowledge of guns.

Maybe the fact some of you are pushing for that means someone will care and put it in... I've just seen too many times games tank because of expectations that exceeded what is realistic to expect.

Again, I'm sorry if I was a jackass, I hope there is no hard feelings!

[SWi74]

9 hours ago, GODSPEED said:

I hope there is no hard feelings!

Not at all. Don't worry about it. You didn't actually say anything offensive, so no need to apologize. I was surprised to have someone jump on the breaks about gun details when talking about JA.

Guns are a big part of the game. I feel like JA produced more "into-guns" adults (some without ever touching an actual weapon, so not qualifying as "gun nuts") than NFS: Porsche Unleashed produced Porsche fans. 😄

Talking about features is fun. We are not briefing the devs here. This is just a chat mostly about how each one of us would design it or how they wish it would play out. Of course, some ideas will be unrealistic, that's not a bad thing (as long as people don't wine about not being listened to).

If I were to design this game I would prioritize character differentiation and meaningful stat progression. "One in the chamber" or more accurately "Tactical Reloads" (as opposed to Empty Reloads) and the "100 AP" system I am totally up for are both features that will illustrate the difference between characters' dexterity, experience, specialties, etc.

I don't think it's a vital feature either, certainly not for capacity's sake. I think carrying with a round in the chamber irl is BANANAS (I've even heard some people don't fill their mag all the way to avoid high mag spring tension). But if I was a merc in a gunfight I'd wish somebody trained me to reload before my gun was completely empty, so I could carry on spraying bullets ASAP 😄

10 hours ago, GODSPEED said:

usually from Airsoft/Cheap Replicas

There are some crazy accurate replicas for air soft, btw, so I guess it's valid research. Saw a video about some Japanese airsoft champ on a trip to the states just so they could see if his skills translated to real weapons. The dude was phenomenal, first time touching a real firearm (not a replica). 😄

I like Forgotten Weapons on YouTube. The guy is an engineer/historian? (not the "firing a .50 caliber rifles at watermelons" kind of content). Just watching his videos on the vanilla JA2 guns (like Mike's G11 <3) would be beneficial for a dev in this position. Again, this isn't a demand to anyone, it's just how I'd go about it if it were my project.

[GODSPEED]

8 hours ago, SWi74 said:

Guns are a big part of the game. I feel like JA produced more "into-guns" adults (some without ever touching an actual weapon, so not qualifying as "gun nuts") than NFS: Porsche Unleashed produced Porsche fans. 😄

Oh common, how do you know me so well?! 😂

 

8 hours ago, SWi74 said:

Talking about features is fun. We are not briefing the devs here. This is just a chat mostly about how each one of us would design it or how they wish it would play out. Of course, some ideas will be unrealistic, that's not a bad thing (as long as people don't wine about not being listened to).

If I were to design this game I would prioritize character differentiation and meaningful stat progression. "One in the chamber" or more accurately "Tactical Reloads" (as opposed to Empty Reloads) and the "100 AP" system I am totally up for are both features that will illustrate the difference between characters' dexterity, experience, specialties, etc.

I don't think it's a vital feature either, certainly not for capacity's sake. I think carrying with a round in the chamber irl is BANANAS (I've even heard some people don't fill their mag all the way to avoid high mag spring tension). But if I was a merc in a gunfight I'd wish somebody trained me to reload before my gun was completely empty, so I could carry on spraying bullets ASAP 😄

There are some crazy accurate replicas for air soft, btw, so I guess it's valid research. Saw a video about some Japanese airsoft champ on a trip to the states just so they could see if his skills translated to real weapons. The dude was phenomenal, first time touching a real firearm (not a replica). 😄

I like Forgotten Weapons on YouTube. The guy is an engineer/historian? (not the "firing a .50 caliber rifles at watermelons" kind of content). Just watching his videos on the vanilla JA2 guns (like Mike's G11 <3) would be beneficial for a dev in this position. Again, this isn't a demand to anyone, it's just how I'd go about it if it were my project.

+1 in the chamber for all that!

Yeah, I was into airsoft for quite a few years.. always hunting the perfectly accurate replica over the "quality" of it's internal mechs. I've also always enjoyed watching Forgotten Weapons, Hickock45, iranqveteran8888... and so many others.

By nature, I'm a perfectionist, I really enjoy getting into things and knowing everything about how it works and mechanisms... I guess part of me is just afraid that wanting all these details in JA3 will just lead me to being really disappointed. Maybe I'm just subconsciously compensating?

Anyways, you're right, these are just discussions among us fans.
So yeah... +1 to +1 rounds in chambers 😇
 

I keep thinking the devs will see the title of the post and be totally lost and think we're talking about +1 weapons in D&D.

Yeah, I want an HK G3KA4 +1 😁

[bhaa]

Well, details make perfection and perfection is not a detail, as Leo said long time ago. But giving too much details might frighten new players so it should have some balance imho. Nevertheless, the moment we have modding we can implement anything we want, that's the main idea behind long living games. Yeah, and put some Canadian beer cans back to business as in JA1, would be a nice touch.

[GODSPEED]

2 hours ago, bhaa said:

Yeah, and put some Canadian beer cans back to business as in JA1, would be a nice touch.

Haha! Would be nice to see some of "our" Canadian "heritage" back in this game.. although I doubt they could ever find a Malice in Bulgaria (Haemimont Games)!

Malice made me feel like I was at work....

[SWi74]

1 hour ago, GODSPEED said:

Bulgaria (Haemimont Games)!

mind blown... I never actually looked up the devs... Somehow I thought it will be THQ Nordic with some dev close to them. Then I thought THQ Nordic were from an actual nordic country... Then you wrote Bulgaria and I was like... What the flack... I'm from Bulgaria... I've only heard about some small Ubisoft helping studio in Bulgaria and maybe some mobile/browser games... and that one Bulgarian game ages ago that I played a LOT of as a kid - Tzar. I didn't get to playing Age of Empires, but Tzar to me was what Age of Empires was for people that played it. It must have been a lot worse, but still quite decent imho.

So it turns out Haemimont did Tzar... and now I'm not sure weather to be happy or sad that they are doing JA. I've heard about Tropico, but never tried it. It's a somewhat famous title with console ports so it can't be terrible right? On the upside they are an old company (about as old as JA), that managed to stay afloat all this time. If they are old school they would avoid some pretty terrible modern game design practices. Maybe it's wishful thinking, but I feel like they should be able to understand and respect JA's history, layers and appeal.

On the down side, we're a small country, not famous for exporting big games that I know of. I know there must be some top tier programmers, but I doubt it's a consequence of higher education in Bulgaria. Vray is Bulgarian and used to be a pretty big... we have tones of IT companies, but mainly for support and such.

So get me that Canadian beer props and I'll make sure the get it 😄

[GODSPEED]

31 minutes ago, SWi74 said:

and that one Bulgarian game ages ago that I played a LOT of as a kid - Tzar. I didn't get to playing Age of Empires, but Tzar to me was what Age of Empires was for people that played it. It must have been a lot worse, but still quite decent imho.

I'd play Tzar over AoE! Wasn't Tzar alot like Spellforce? I've only played Spellforce 3, but it's a Strategy/RPG where you level and equip your main heroes, but also control some hordes of fodder?

I prefer that than pure RTS!

 

31 minutes ago, SWi74 said:

So it turns out Haemimont did Tzar... and now I'm not sure weather to be happy or sad that they are doing JA. I've heard about Tropico, but never tried it. It's a somewhat famous title with console ports so it can't be terrible right? On the upside they are an old company (about as old as JA), that managed to stay afloat all this time. If they are old school they would avoid some pretty terrible modern game design practices. Maybe it's wishful thinking, but I feel like they should be able to understand and respect JA's history, layers and appeal.

That is always hard to know. I really like their Surviving Mars game. I like the older Tropico isometric 2d games and have not really cared since Tropico 3.

Studios change over time, just look at Bioware, Dice, etc.. Use to make some of the best and now make some of the laziest stuff.

 

At least, if there is something that I really like about Haemimont Games, even if they don't have my favorite games, is that they stick to their stuff. Omerta wasn't THAT well received, but they did not abandon it. They patched and even expanded it. So I have respect for their hard work. It gives me a small amount of hope that even if JA3 comes out not exactly as expected, it will not just be dead in the water.

 

31 minutes ago, SWi74 said:

On the down side, we're a small country, not famous for exporting big games that I know of. I know there must be some top tier programmers, but I doubt it's a consequence of higher education in Bulgaria. Vray is Bulgarian and used to be a pretty big... we have tones of IT companies, but mainly for support and such.

Back in the late 90's JA has been made in my hometown of Montreal, Quebec (Canada). And while there was a big division of EA and Ubisoft Montreal, I can't say they make anything good.

Ubisoft is probably the company I find the most generic out there. How many assassin's creed do we have? 23? 54? I don't know, I played the first one and it felt very generic, tedious and repetitive. So I don't think education here is better or worse.

Many of my favorite and buggy games are of small Russian devs, like 1C and the Stalker devs.

 

I like to look at where a dev team comes from, because sometimes I feel it will influence that style of the game very much; like the sense of humour, the type of weapons, the voiceovers, etc..

As a stereotype and an example: some of the previous JA attempts are from German/Austrian devs I believe, pkease correct me if wrong! And while I realize this is a generalization, but even from my early days of playing Battlefield 1942 and 2 with a German clan; humour is VERY different from the type I am used to - English (british) and French. And those remakes of JA games also lacked some of that humour that comes from my area. Or it was simply not the same for me.

 

I unfortunately do not know as much of Bulgaria as I would like to! So maybe you can help out and give a crash course on your Country! 😘

31 minutes ago, SWi74 said:

So get me that Canadian beer props and I'll make sure the get it 😄

😁

[SWi74]

3 hours ago, GODSPEED said:

Wasn't Tzar alot like Spellforce?

Haven't played Spellforce, but from what I've seen, no, Tzar is an RTS heavily inspired (if you want to say it nicely) by AoE. You might have got the wrong idea, because the campaign had "hero" units similar to how the StarCraft campaign was told.

 

3 hours ago, GODSPEED said:

Ubisoft is probably the company I find the most generic out there. How many assassin's creed do we have? 23? 54?

Yes, Ubi is pretty bad. They will always remain unforgiven for destroying the HoMM franchise. Even the remaster of HoMM3 was a huge disappointment with a complimentary lie about original graphics being worse than they actually were.

Assassin's Creed had some issues, but for its time I'd say it was pretty revolutionary. AC2 was fantastic I would say. But then after Brotherhood it has been a steep, fast decline.

Ubi releases so much stuff, though, it's statistically impossible for all of it to be horrible. There are some very enjoyable titles.

Most importantly, Ubi has the capacity and budget to do great. Haemimont probably doesn't.

4 hours ago, GODSPEED said:

give a crash course on your Country!

I'd rather not say much. You can probably tell by now that I'm not exactly the patriotic type. I can feel a ban out to get me 😄 (maybe if the devs were an actual part of this surprisingly tiny community).

I hope dev nationality has little to no effect on the game. I don't see anything done in a Bulgarian manner in Tropico... or in the JA3 setting so there's a big chance that it's irrelevant.

They probably know a thing or two about socialism, communism, soviet union, life in an Eastern Block country. Maybe we'll get some good cold war remarks from the mercs.

What I do know now (and I love how this thread about mag capacity made a full 360) is their exact opportunities when it comes to gun knowledge. Going to a range for a team building is very doable. The ranges however, are mostly indoors 25m handgun corridors with little weapon variety (one legendary metal body handgun (one has a Beretta 92fs, one has a CZ Shadow, one has the old CZ 75) that goes trough repairs every couple of weeks and a few polymer ones no-one really wants to use). There's also a 100m range with rifles close by, but the service is laughable. I did a half day basic training with an AK there. The weapon was a disgrace, too.

Bulgaria used to manufacture AKs, but at some point decided they won't pay for the license. Now we make AK, but they're technically called otherwise.

"That's the third time I steal a full set of parts from the cooker factory, but every time I try to assemble it, it becomes an AK" - grandad joke that captures a bit of Bulgaria pre democracy.

[Sarin]

14 minutes ago, SWi74 said:

"That's the third time I steal a full set of parts from the cooker factory, but every time I try to assemble it, it becomes an AK" - grandad joke that captures a bit of Bulgaria pre democracy.

Not just Bulgaria. All around the Eastern Bloc. You remember the one about seven wonders of socialism?

[SWi74]

23 hours ago, Sarin said:

seven wonders of socialism

I don't think I've seen it, yet I know exactly what it's talking about 😄

[GODSPEED]

This whole +1 thing really got my mind going recently.

 

I like the realism the option brings.. but, at the same time it leads to so many other options and complexities.

 

For those of us who do give a crap about this stuff, how would you implement single action, double action and da/sa pistols in the game?

 

I just figure, if they give you the opportunity to pump/cock/rack and extra round in the chamber, I'd like to see the effect of pre-cocking a single action revolver, or cocking a double-action pistol.

 

Technically, one of my favorite systems, is the way Brigade E5/7,62 High Calibre perfected carrying magazines/clips instead of being harry potter and creating magazines out of thin air when loading a gun.

 

Not only does it make the game feel more tactical, but it also means that you THINK and prepare yourself before battles and it can make the use of your sidearm a wiser choice when dealing with an empty mag.

 

This ALSO means, that technically, with great dexterity (and considerable AP) you could/should be able to chamber a single round in a gun you have even if you didn't have magazines for it. I know this is complete wishful thinking and bonkers ideas.. but I've always enjoyed the early struggles of finding that cheap crap rifle that just beats all your pistol/smg mercs early on. Having to load that single round in an AK you found (without the mags) to take that longer distance shot befilore taking on the redshirts with all your wimpy rusty pistols..

 

..aaahh I just love the technical crap!