Strength is a near pointless stat

[Claudius33]

1 minute ago, Raeven said:

Apparently I'm actually "Quebecoise" as I learned 😋

I know you are. Tabarnak (I love it) I should have written are 'Québécoise and Québecois'.

[Warmonger]

The weight you can carry was a good parameter for JA2, as was endurance and the canteens to regenerate it. Both are related to reliability and have always promoted the playing feel of JA2. What I have seen in previous streams on JA3 does not do justice to the increased complexity. On the contrary, you will probably have to spend days tidying things up without the fun factor getting its due.

[Xeth Nyrrow]

3 hours ago, GODSPEED said:

It really depends HOW they implemented those. In JA2, a certain action could be affected by more than one stat. Not sure what you mean by "more complex" though.

I think she meant the RPG part specifically is more complex, not the stats. In the stream with Ian Currie he talked about how he would have loved to have fleshed out the RPG elements more in JA2 and that JA3 did this. Streams have shown how you have multiple choices that are not just stat based but also trait based. The devs had said that these decisions will have other repercussions later on as well in true RPG fashion.

[Raeven]

Yes, dialogue system is much improved, there is branching questing now, choices n consequences, skill checks, way more complex rpg elements than either earlier JA game had.

I don't think we know for certain how each stat influences each mechanic. I will say that in JA2 it could be awfully opaque sometimes. 

[Raeven]

I mean I love the tactical depth of JA2 as well, obviously. But if you were to ask me, for example, "would you be willing to trade a simplified inventory system for actual branching dialogue and choices that felt meaningful", I'd probably opt for the latter, because I love those kinds of RPGs and wanted more of that in JA2.

The strategic layer is also way more involved in this game. JA2 was very shallow in this regard. I'm very excited for this part.

So to say it is streamlined is not accurate in my mind. In some areas it is, and in some it is not. It varies.

Another way to think about it is like, JA2 went super, super deep in one area, the tactical combat and inventory / item management, but very shallow in others (dialogue, questing, choices, strategic layer, etc). 1.13 quadrupled down on this depth. This game feels more "even" overall, simpler in some areas, but with more depth in the ones that were previously lacking.

I like those other elements, therefore I'm excited about it. Obviously the bears pit crowd went in a different direction. For all the mechanics added in JA3, no one has wanted to add stuff like dialogue trees, faction alliances, meaningful choices etc. It's been more like, let's add a rust mechanic to your guns if you leave them out in the rain 🤣🤣🤣

sorry if that was mean to 1.13, but it's not an inaccurate description I don't think 😉

[5Cents]

Imo strenght definitely  a misunderstood characteristic.

You can lift 220 pnds, 22 times easily. Cool. So you can go out in the field and lift and shoot a m2.

That doesnt necessarily makes you a good infantryman.

There is a characteristic called enDurance. In JA2 you also you can count agilty in, for that.
In infantryunits and army elite its observable, that buildermen are not absolutely better than a average or agil guy, sometimes worse than them. Reason for that, is willpower and toughness.

Even strenghtness will disapear without training and is depending on many other factors. Some people wont exceed a particular strenghtness, as well.

And so on and on.. you can never-ever get all this depending factors get in a game and depict reality, nowadays.

So actually, i like the new idea for Jagged 3, because i never was too convinced with the previous solution. I find the new slotsystem is actually a cool thing.

Sometimes new things are better, than just the old stuff. And i find the new idea is actually a innovative novelty.

But everybody have his own opinion, on most facts.

 

 

Edited July 6, 2023 by 5Cents

[Dr.Kuhn]

17 hours ago, Raeven said:

Serious question, how many accounts have you made on these forums?

Literally just this 1. I'm not perusing the forums to see if this point has been made or not, as it doesn't seem to be a topic the devs talk about during the livestreams and it seems like a fundamentally glaring flaw in the game design.

[Dr.Kuhn]

16 hours ago, MateKiddleton said:

Same energy as boomer karens on facebook. But instead of asking to speak to the manager, they ask to speak to the devs 😆

Sorry your toxic positivity doesn't resonate with me.

[Dr.Kuhn]

17 hours ago, Xeth Nyrrow said:

You got that feeling too? Even if it's their first time, their hostile out the gate demeanor isn't welcome either way.

Addressing a game design flaw is "hostile"? What else is "hostile" to you? I'm not walking on egg shells because some nobody on the forums doesn't fully approve of my choice of words to describe an issue.

[GODSPEED]

10 minutes ago, Dr.Kuhn said:

Addressing a game design flaw is "hostile"? What else is "hostile" to you? I'm not walking on egg shells because some nobody on the forums doesn't fully approve of my choice of words to describe an issue.

You brought valid arguments, asked valid questions and shared your concerns.

Some people get pissed off if you tackle a worry about a game that they see with rose-tinted glasses. I wouldn't worry too much about it.

I don't think you are a "Karen", and actually find whoever said that to be kind of shallow. You didn't REQUEST anything from the devs nor did you say anyone would regret it if they didn't listen to you (the def of a Karen).

[Raeven]

I think it is the characterization of design decisions as being drug induced that tends to leave a negative impression. For example.

[GODSPEED]

3 hours ago, Raeven said:

But if you were to ask me, for example, "would you be willing to trade a simplified inventory system for actual branching dialogue and choices that felt meaningful", I'd probably opt for the latter, because I love those kinds of RPGs and wanted more of that in JA2.

The strategic layer is also way more involved in this game. JA2 was very shallow in this regard. I'm very excited for this part.

That remains to be seen. The amount of times I've see that marketed in games and it ends up simply being fancy words...


Jagged Edge - Hired Guns did EXACTLY what this game advertises. Dialogue options. Factions & Allegiances.

Let's just say, that yes, it was in the game... but I would take JA2's abstract take any day.

Could JA2 have had deeper Faction stuff? Yes. Urban Chaos and Deidranna Lives! kind of explored more factions.. although the coding in JA2 wasn't the best for faction allegiances.

I mean, we have soooo many games that do dialogue and "choices" and questing, and "here!! a reward for completing it!". What was nice about JA2 is that they had a bunch of quests, but they are well hidden. No logbook, no hand-holding. You HAVE to figure it out. It's suggested through dialogue, and you do what you want with your own moral compass without needing to be given points or given a thumbs up by the game to tell you you did it or didn't. That's something I hope they don't change. When I first played the game in 1999, I never even realized half the quests that were in game. When I went back to the game years later and eventually also started playing it regularly, I was a little older, and started noticing many hidden things.

That - finding new things through replayability - is something I sincerely hope JA3 will have. I don't need every quest to be spelled out for me, I don't want to feel like I'm a child playing a game. Let me discover new things through multiple playthroughs.


Now, if the quests and dialogue are well done, now THAT will be awesome!

[Remi1987]

After reconsideration of Strength I will very likely gonna pick one character (thinking about Steroid who seems to have the most strength) as part of my starting squad. The higher the strength, the more goods I can carry and the more money I can earn early on. That's my reasoning.

I can also see myself later on training my squad to improve strength skill so the pro mercs I have by then have bigger backpacks.

"Strength / hire-cost" can be another interesting number; which merc has the most strength for the best buck.

These are mechanics I absolutely think about already

Edited July 6, 2023 by Remi1987

[Xeth Nyrrow]

1 hour ago, Dr.Kuhn said:

Addressing a game design flaw is "hostile"? What else is "hostile" to you? I'm not walking on egg shells because some nobody on the forums doesn't fully approve of my choice of words to describe an issue.

What do you mean exactly by, "addressing a game design flaw?" If it's to complain to anyone who will listen then go right ahead, but that isn't, "addressing" the issue. Now if you are hoping to change the game by, "addressing" the issue then maybe not insulting the developers is a good start. I'm not saying you have kiss up to them but being mean to someone you want to listen to you is rather counter productive.

[Dr.Kuhn]

2 hours ago, Xeth Nyrrow said:

What do you mean exactly by, "addressing a game design flaw?" If it's to complain to anyone who will listen then go right ahead, but that isn't, "addressing" the issue. Now if you are hoping to change the game by, "addressing" the issue then maybe not insulting the developers is a good start. I'm not saying you have kiss up to them but being mean to someone you want to listen to you is rather counter productive.

You really think the "poor devs" can't defend themselves? lol Listen, I already pre-ordered the game because I'm hopelessly addicted to ja2 1.13, but I'm thinking of the game in the overall scope of things for them. I don't need to make the sales, they do. Your awkward, pedantic attempts at putting what I'm saying into quotation marks doesn't actually prove or do anything. Strength being significantly less relevant because of "the bag of holding" inventory, and no weight system is factually true. It's not a debatable talking point. It's why it's worth discussing the mindset behind the design decision. Will any devs even come to this forum? No idea. I more or less present the idea to the community to get feedback.

Realistically, nothing is going to change about the game a week before release and anyone would be a fool to think otherwise.

[Solaris_Wave]

15 hours ago, Stuurminator said:

When playing JA2, I almost always ran out of slots before I ran up against the weight limit. If anything, strength is more relevant to inventory management now than it was before, or so it seems to me.

That happened for me also. To be honest, despite my appreciation for JA2, I actually favour Silent Storm's inventory system and pushed for that to be in JA3. It was also in the original X-COM games. Having a grid for belts and backpacks meant that you could carry lots of small items or fewer larger ones.

With a slot system, it means everything is roughly the same size. Some items can be stacked in quantity, such as magazines, but there are still limitations. Should an FN FAL take up the same size as a M1911? Some magazines are smaller or more narrow than others.

[Claudius33]

3 hours ago, Solaris_Wave said:

With a slot system, it means everything is roughly the same size. Some items can be stacked in quantity, such as magazines, but there are still limitations. Should an FN FAL take up the same size as a M1911? Some magazines are smaller or more narrow than others.

Devdiary 11 Guns Guns, one of the first pictures, Len's backpack. AR takes two slots, pistol one slot.

I liked Silent Storm's inventory too. It was a kind of mini game indeed. You had to well organize your items in order to pack maximum stuff. Obviously it was totally unrealistic you could happily pack 4 machines gun, ammo, grenades, a couple of pistols and SMGs, tools, but who cares?

[5Cents]

Well the Glock17 is 8 inches/204mm long & weight is 1,37lbs/0,625kg empty.

Car15 seems to resemble a M607. But longer barrel:& 30mag, what wasnt standard compatibility.
However,..oiginal-length round 27,5in/70cm with collapsed stock as shown, weight roundabout 6,6lbs/3kg (empty).

The SAW with (Standard)barell is about 40in/100cm, ca.15lbs/6,8kg.

So we have only 23lbs/10,5kg here. Weight of a schoolkidback, in the old days (books in it, bread and stuff).. 😉

Add bullets 4lbs/1,8kg. Add weight of Backpack, depending of model, take Alice w frame 11lbs/5kgs.

So we are round about 37,5lbs/17kg.

Add weapon in hand. Add clothes, helmet, maybe some kevlar, lbe eqpmt. Water, food, Beauty set? 😁

But still possible to go with that. Fighting with that? 🤔 Hmm, better not.

[5Cents]

Theres another point regarding strength.

Your Mercs have no homebase, nor support sqds. So, for a trip to nice countries like Metavira, Arulco, Grand chien, mercs had to carry round everything they will need (sleepingbags & all this shit) or at least have survival and huntingskills. In Battle they would throw away Backpacks (possible in 1.13).
But JA originally wasnt meant to play that kind of a Sim of Reality. Imo.

So, personally, i could live with that maybe changed concept of strength.

[D13]

Silent Storm's inventory system felt like Tetris to me 🙂

[Solaris_Wave]

As much as I like Silent Storm's approach, I agree about the whole Tetris thing! Due to the variety of grenades and mines, it was a real effort to try and pack as much as possible.

I still like the idea of a grid system but the amount of space doesn't have to be as large as Silent Storm (backpacks being the largest, ammo bags the next, belts following).

[5Cents]

2 hours ago, D13 said:

Silent Storm's inventory system felt like Tetris to me 🙂

Well, at least its funny. Thx for sharing.😂

Soldier: "Well,hmmm, let me seeee.. this grenade there, that little Shit over here, that Bastard over there..oh NO. Doesnt fit. Again..."

5 min later;

"Bloody hell, ive got enough!"

Throwin hole inventory somewhere 💥

[GODSPEED]

I personally never liked Silent Storm, X-Com (old) or Jagged Alliance's way of inventory management.

They very rudimentary. They get the job done, because as many point out, it isn't a game about logistics.

My favourite inventory system, straight out of the box with not tweaks or mods, was the one in 7,62mm High Calibre (and Brigade E5).

It wasn't so complex like the pouch system in the later releases of 1.13 (1.13 inventory is optional and not a necessity).

It was modular. So you started with just the space you could fit in your actual pockets and in your hands. You needed things like a tool belt, backpack, vest, etc.. to expand the inventory. It didn't go into so much detail to restrict you. So you could place 2 small items in a vertical mag pouch if you wanted. But you couldn't place a horizontal or too large item in that space.

 

I was REALLY hoping JA3 was going to have this kind of thing. Way simpler than the pouch system in the "New Inventory" of 1.13, but a step above the DOS-era inventory system of JA1.

I find that this kind of inventory is fitting for a military-themed game, as pouches, backpacks, vests are very standard things. Unlike Baldur's Gate 1 & 2 where you simple store stuff and later do get a bag of holding.

[5Cents]

What about the merc apperance? A bit retro-styled again 😉

Each one of them has his individual pounches, belts and pockets. No one is wearing any backpack, as far as i have seen. Second weapon are shown on the back, anyway (use of helmet, kevlars, are not shown).

Despite the lack of that, concept makes sense. Every one can carry things, his strength allows. Its more simplified but works.

Only restricts in exhausting your mules äh mercs, with overloading.

Before, you could carry things over 100% thats the difference.

There were quiet a lot of fans, who didnt like 1.13 in general and yes, some didnt like new inventory system in particular, so you could put that off (me, i liked it, but it felt a bit like an overdose smtms).

Its rather a question of individual taste, i believe. If you would do a poll, with all Fans, maybe it would around 50/50 for developing or adopt another system, i guess.

[Xeth Nyrrow]

13 hours ago, Dr.Kuhn said:

You really think the "poor devs" can't defend themselves? lol Listen, I already pre-ordered the game because I'm hopelessly addicted to ja2 1.13, but I'm thinking of the game in the overall scope of things for them. I don't need to make the sales, they do. Your awkward, pedantic attempts at putting what I'm saying into quotation marks doesn't actually prove or do anything. Strength being significantly less relevant because of "the bag of holding" inventory, and no weight system is factually true. It's not a debatable talking point. It's why it's worth discussing the mindset behind the design decision. Will any devs even come to this forum? No idea. I more or less present the idea to the community to get feedback.

Realistically, nothing is going to change about the game a week before release and anyone would be a fool to think otherwise.

Glad you admitted to attacking the devs at least. Ever heard of getting more bees with honey rather than vinegar? It's true that it might be too late to have changes for release but they might change things after release based upon feedback. From yesterday's stream https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1864846518 at 1:32:08 they answered my question and said they are open to the idea of possibly changing missed shots hitting other parts of the body.

Now do you think if I asked that question like you, saying they are on drugs or something, that they would have even taken my question? Yeah probably not. I even expressed my opinion that it's, "weird" but I wasn't mean to them. You could have the best solution in the world but no one is interested in listening to you if you are always crass in your speech. This is what I mean by being counter productive.