Strength is a near pointless stat

[Dr.Kuhn]

The inventory system is already a circus show with the implementation of a shared stash that ignores weight and distance but tying Strength to it to determine the size of your "stash" legitimately makes me think someone was doing drugs in the office that day, but worse, that idea didn't just hit the table but also went into the game like it was some kind of 4-D 5000 I.Q. chess move. When I make my IMP, I really need a reason to not give him something like 35 strength when I have zero intention of trying to engage in hand to hand combat in a shooting simulator.

With the exclusion of fatigue as it was presented in JA2, and nothing really stopping you from carrying 6 mortars, either in your personal stash or in the shared stash, I really hate how Strength as a stat got caught in the crossfire of these HORRENDOUS design decisions. It's putting salt on the wound when a poorly designed inventory would've been more than enough for me to be like "Is Haemimont aware their core player base has more than 2 brain cells and aren't mentally crippled from having to manage their inventories in other Jagged alliance games???"

[Claypl]

Agreed with inventory system abuse and heavy oversimplification, for the record you cannot store weapons in shared stash.

[Xeth Nyrrow]

48 minutes ago, Raeven said:

Serious question, how many accounts have you made on these forums?

You got that feeling too? Even if it's their first time, their hostile out the gate demeanor isn't welcome either way.

[MateKiddleton]

Same energy as boomer karens on facebook. But instead of asking to speak to the manager, they ask to speak to the devs 😆

[Claypl]

he has good point tho, no need to go to usual suspect 😉

having high strength does appears to be kind of pointless ..

[Raeven]

Having more inventory slots is a pretty damn good reason.

[ShadowMagic]

1 hour ago, Raeven said:

Having more inventory slots is a pretty damn good reason.

With this logic a 4ft midget that lifts 200 pounds on a bench would be capable of stashing away two pistols in his inventory opposed to a 7ft giant than might be able to hold one with both hands due to having less strength?

Since freely translated that is what this leads to. 

Edited July 6, 2023 by ShadowMagic

[Claypl]

1 hour ago, Raeven said:

Having more inventory slots is a pretty damn good reason.

It could be too big of trade off tho.

Looking at some playthroughs, here are some examples

STR - SLOTS

56 - 5
70 - 8
87 - 11
Between 6 - 10 points of strength worth 1 item slot (more on low end of STR). Not best trade off, I would prefer to spend it somewhere else.

Probably I wont be going for more then 50 on IMP and have everyone else handle my sh#t.

[LoboNocturno]

Strength is surely also a important point imo, at least it was in JA2. As example i loved Brain (imo the best door & create opener) in JA2 Wildfire. His power was like 95 but within short time it reached to 99. He would open most doors just with 1 kick and excellent for opening boxes.

They said already back in JA3 power will be useful for more slots but also for other stuff like throwing grenades more further and could be useful as well for opening boxes or even in hand to hand.

 

If we want to keep it realistic, men power should not be anything lower then 70 imo (unless its a really old or sick person as Dynamo or Shank back in JA2 from Tixa.) For women it could be anything from 45 to 75 (max). I cant see any merc having lower power then 50 (unless its a woman, sick or really damaged character.)

 

I would be giving to my IMP at least 75 power if its a male, if its a woman i would keep it around 60s.

[Claypl]

35 is still min (unless things changed from preview build).

Inability to grenade could be a factor (but I'm not clear on how this translates exactly), other limitations seems superficial as other mercs could easily handle these. Higher min on some of ATR would make sense, after all I would not like to send my frail body to front lines, but if I can ..

I suppose it is still somewhat unclear how much exactly does lack of STR impact on gameplay, I could end up hating my life mid playthrough 😛

[D13]

So what we know is that strength affects inventory size, throwing distance, probably hand-to-hand combat effectiveness, and possibly object interaction (doors, crates).

I wonder if it will also affect recoil handling (stronger mercs would be more likely to hold high caliber guns steady between shots, ie. accuracy bonus after first shot, and during burst and full auto fire).

[Claudius33]

Sorry to say it, but XCOM did it right. Wages of War a long while ago did it right too.

You want realism?

Except for being caught flat-footed and just the time needed to react, nobody would go into active combat carrying 2 AR and a RPG over the shoulders while having a LMG in hands, whatever their strength could be. Trained elite forces can carry a very heavy load, but during the approach.

Why did XCOM right?

• You are limited to a main weapon and a secondary weapon plus a limited number of grenades/medikits/tools you have to choose for the incoming mission.
• XCOM does not have unlimited ammo, it assumes your soldiers are not stupid enough to not bring enough ammo for a skirmish. The grenade launcher has limited ammo.
• XCOM also assumes that if a soldier chooses the Grenadier path, s/he’s strong enough to carry heavy weapons. If a soldier chooses the Commando path, XCOM assumes s/he’s dexterous and strong enough to deliver lethal blows using a blade …

 

You want to translate into JA3 while retaining JA no class/freedom of use :

• Penalty of accuracy for a weak merc firing a heavy weapon crouching or standing. No penalty proned of course. Bonus for a strong merc.
• Accuracy/Damage inflicted penalty when dealing a blade blow with a low dexterity. Bonus for a dexterous merc.
• Damage inflicted penalty when a weak merc punches. Bonus for a strong merc.

And so one …
I guess that this kind of rule has somehow been implemented already.

 

You want to cope with the inventory while retaining the JA like inventory:
 

• Shared inventory must not be accessible during combat. Period. If it is, well convince yourself your mercs are clever enough to bring enough ammo from the shared inventory before the fight starts. Even if some level of micro management can be fun, I’m not sure that having to split boxes of ammo between mercs is that fun in the long run. Therefore I can live with an always accessible inventory, yet it bristles my hair.
• Fumbling into your backpack to change weapons or do anything else cost all APs, at least half APs
• Swapping weapons : main to sidearm, main to blade ... should cost 1 or 2 (better) AP, time to put your AR over your shoulder and put a knife in hand.

Sorry for the wall of text.

[Claypl]

Thx for insight @Claudius33 this give me idea that heavy or even heavier weapons/armor could be gate kept behind certain level of STR/DEX attributes. I do not recall that being implemented tho..

I think that is somewhat implemented in PERK system but I did not felt as much pressure on prioritizing that attribute over other (from the PERK perspective).

[GODSPEED]

3 hours ago, Claudius33 said:

nobody would go into active combat carrying 2 AR and a RPG over the shoulders while having a LMG in hands, whatever their strength could be.

Jagged Alliance 2 wasn't a military simulator.

It's on the actual boxes.

ROLEPLAYING STRATEGY

Roleplaying was the most important part of Jagged Alliance, as that is the point of the freedom to do whatever you wanted, whenever you wanted. As stupidly or as reasonably as YOU wanted. Sure, Jagged Alliance has attracted a hardcore bunch of gun nuts.. myself included, still.. not a simualtor in any way. What I liked most about 1.13 was the addition of 1000's of guns and the dedication to recreating them to a degree of realism considering the type of game.

If JA was realistic, you would have a base of operations, logistics, etc.. all that is besides the point. We want a realistic view on an action movie.

Anyways, the idea that you ENTER active combat doesn't make sense in JA as again, you're a roaming band of Mercenaries without a real place to stay or without a real base of operations. So you lug around stuff.

Xcom might be more realistic in that approach, due to the fact you have a base of operations, a command area from which you fly out.


I'd still much rather play a game where I get the freedom to equip 5 tool kits on my merc, because that's what I choose, than the game to dictate what I can or can't do.

Seeing how my choices affect the outcome of combat is something I appreciate more than playing within very limited confines of a game.

Edited July 6, 2023 by GODSPEED

[GODSPEED]

9 hours ago, Dr.Kuhn said:

The inventory system is already a circus show with the implementation of a shared stash that ignores weight and distance but tying Strength to it to determine the size of your "stash" legitimately makes me think someone was doing drugs in the office that day,...

With the exclusion of fatigue as it was presented in JA2, and nothing really stopping you from carrying 6 mortars, either in your personal stash or in the shared stash, I really hate how Strength as a stat got caught in the crossfire of these HORRENDOUS design decisions. It's putting salt on the wound when a poorly designed inventory would've been more than enough for me to be like "Is Haemimont aware their core player base has more than 2 brain cells and aren't mentally crippled from having to manage their inventories in other Jagged alliance games???"

I think it is really too bad they scrapped an entire RPG system for their own take at streamlining something that wasn't even all that difficult to start with.

It feels like a hodge-podge of mashups of different systems and then brainstorming HOW they can implement different features from it.

For ****sake, they keep advertising they had Ian Currie on board.. so why the F*** just not use JA1 & 2 Stat system?

For a Tactical TBS Game, it was pretty unique and fun. Really wish they just kept the core of the games. Maybe THQ told them it had to be simpler, more like modern tbs games.

[Stuurminator]

When playing JA2, I almost always ran out of slots before I ran up against the weight limit. If anything, strength is more relevant to inventory management now than it was before, or so it seems to me.

[Raeven]

34 minutes ago, GODSPEED said:

I think it is really too bad they scrapped an entire RPG system for their own take at streamlining something that wasn't even all that difficult to start with.

It feels like a hodge-podge of mashups of different systems and then brainstorming HOW they can implement different features from it.

For ****sake, they keep advertising they had Ian Currie on board.. so why the F*** just not use JA1 & 2 Stat system?

For a Tactical TBS Game, it was pretty unique and fun. Really wish they just kept the core of the games. Maybe THQ told them it had to be simpler, more like modern tbs games.

JA3's role playing elements are way more complex than JA1 or JA2 in many respects, not streamlined. For example there is an actual dialogue system now, with different reactions and options based on which mercs you have. There are skill checks in the gameworld now, and quests are more numerous and more complex. So it's not "streamlined" in many aspects. Some of the tactical elements maybe, like shared inventory, but not in the role playing elements.

Also I'm guessing it isn't what you meant, but JA3 retains the exact same stat system from the previous games...

[GODSPEED]

1 hour ago, Raeven said:

JA3's role playing elements are way more complex than JA1 or JA2 in many respects, not streamlined. For example there is an actual dialogue system now, with different reactions and options based on which mercs you have. There are skill checks in the gameworld now, and quests are more numerous and more complex. So it's not "streamlined" in many aspects. Some of the tactical elements maybe, like shared inventory, but not in the role playing elements.

Also I'm guessing it isn't what you meant, but JA3 retains the exact same stat system from the previous games...

The wording makes it appear as though everything is the same:

Quote

 

• Health - Represents both the physical well-being of a merc and the amount of damage they can take before becoming downed.
• Agility - Measures how well a merc reacts physically to a new situation. Affects the total amount of action points, free movement at the start of a turn, and how stealthy the merc is.
• Dexterity - Measures a merc's ability to perform delicate or precise movements correctly. Affects bonus from aiming and Stealth Kill chance.
• Strength - Represents muscle and brawn. It's particularly important in Melee combat, affects throwing range and the size of the personal inventory of the character.
• Wisdom - Affects a merc's ability to learn from experience and training. Affects the chance to notice hidden items and enemies.
• Leadership - Measures charm, respect and presence. Important for training militia and other mercs. Affects the chance for getting positive and negative Morale events.
• Marksmanship - Reflects a merc's ability to shoot accurately at a given target with a firearm.
• Mechanical - Rates a merc's ability to repair damaged, worn-out or broken items and equipment. Important for lockpicking, machine handling and hacking electronic devices. Used for detecting and disarming non-explosive traps.
• Explosives - Determines a merc's ability to use grenades and other explosives and affects damage and mishap chance when using thrown items. Used for detecting and disarming explosive traps.
• Medical - Represents a merc's medical knowledge and ability to heal the wounded.

Some of you will recognize the names of these stats from Jagged Alliance 1 and 2 but note that some of the particular effects are working slightly differently now.

 

It really depends HOW they implemented those. In JA2, a certain action could be affected by more than one stat. Not sure what you mean by "more complex" though.

I hope the functioning under the hood will be similar here.

I just look at the way grenades seem to be thrown, and they don't appear to be governed by ANY stat (other than disatance due to STR). They seem to be exactly the same as X-Com, where you know exactly where they will land and that's all there is to it. Taking away a little bit from the chaotic and uncertain nature of combat in JA2 (I consider that uncertain nature the fun risky part).

Edited July 6, 2023 by GODSPEED

[Claudius33]

2 hours ago, GODSPEED said:

Jagged Alliance 2 wasn't a military simulator.

Absolutely. It is a tactical RPG.

That's why I do not get the people that want it to be a military simulator, ask for more realism but accept that a merc carries an insane number of weapons during combat, need a walking animation because a merc cannot run for a long time carrying such heavy load, but accept that he carries such a heavy load for a very long time, ask for a weight limitation but load a merc twice his maximum weight in order to improve his strength (you call that role playing?) and so on ...

I've no problem with the amount of stuff a merc can carry day after a day , it's a RPG, it's a game, you are free to pack 5 toolkits. I've even suggested simple rules above to make it more 'realistic' regarding the inventory.

What baffles me is the incredible amount of criticisms this game receive, despite it is likely the best attempt so far to revive the franchise. Tough Love, ok, but Tabarnak it's sometimes a bit too much. 

By the way grenades can mishap and not fall where expected. 

[Raeven]

11 minutes ago, Claudius33 said:

What baffles me is the incredible amount of criticisms this game receive, despite it is likely the best attempt so far to revive the franchise. Tough Love, ok, but Tabarnak it's sometimes a bit too much.

Another Quebecois! 😋 Hehe

[GODSPEED]

4 minutes ago, Claudius33 said:

Absolutely. It is a tactical RPG.

That's why I do not get the people that want it to be a military simulator, ask for more realism but accept that a merc carries an insane number of weapons during combat, need a walking animation because a merc cannot run for a long time carrying such heavy load, but accept that he carries such a heavy load for a very long time, ask for a weight limitation but load a merc twice his maximum weight in order to improve his strength (you call that role playing?) and so on ...

I get it. I loved 1.13 for fine-tuning all the macro-/micro-management aspects of the game. More "realistic" guns, pouches, vests, etc.. Variations of the same items. I love that detail.

1.13 brought many features that I found a little lacking in base JA2, making it harder, having huge 2-hour long battles like the Drassen counter-attack. Those we're all part of JA2 from the start, but devs took them out at the end to make it easier.

I'm for the detail that brings the game down more to "simulation" level, fully knowing that the game is a top-down isomatric rpg. It's how I get immersed in it.

I prefer a granular approach at detail of that kind. For me, stamina, weight, morale, exhaustion... it's all very integral to the experience I want.

 

6 minutes ago, Claudius33 said:

By the way grenades can mishap and not fall where expected. 

I try not to watch too many videos (the long ones), not to spoil things. I just didn't look like that in any video I've seen (3-4x 30-45 minute videos). They seemed to click a spot, and the grenades jsut landed exactly where they clicked.
 

[Claudius33]

1 minute ago, Raeven said:

Another Quebecois! 😋 Hehe

Désolé, I'm French but reading that you and Malice @GODSPEED are Quebécois I could not resist and played my Malice.

[Raeven]

1 minute ago, Claudius33 said:

Désolé, I'm French but reading that you and Malice @GODSPEED are Quebécois I could not resist and played my Malice.

Apparently I'm actually "Quebecoise" as I learned 😋

[Claudius33]

2 minutes ago, GODSPEED said:

I try not to watch too many videos (the long ones), not to spoil things. I just didn't look like that in any video I've seen (3-4x 30-45 minute videos). They seemed to click a spot, and the grenades jsut landed exactly where they clicked.

It even happened to Barry (video in French made by Koinsky)

[GODSPEED]

5 minutes ago, Claudius33 said:

Désolé, I'm French but reading that you and Malice @GODSPEED are Quebécois I could not resist and played my Malice.

Hahaha!!! Oui, bien 50/50 Français et Anglais.. je parle plus un Français Canadien même si je suis "Québecois".