Why does JA2 1.13 get so much "hate"?

[GODSPEED]

I seem to come across so many comments like the one below on this forum:

2 minutes ago, Tzg said:

Yes it isn’t in line with 1.13 - but for me at least - isn’t real JA it expands on it towards realism and better tactical game but kills its soul in the process.

I usually don't reply or ask within the topic, because it would completely sidetrack the original post topic.


So, my question to those who don't like 1.13, why do you guys hate it so much? What is it about 1.13 that takes away from JA2 without 1.13?


Does playing with a higher resolution kill the immersion? Does having some quality of life features like many more hotkeys kill the joy of JA2? Does having the option of seeing the complete cone of vision of your merc, instead of the select square take away from JA2?

Does the option of having more weapons create too much of a problem? Does the option of having a new type of inventory kill your joy? Does the option of having higher difficulty with more enemies kill the fun of the game? Does the option of having a large counter-attack on drassen halt your fun?

Is the addition of the JA1 roster a deal-breaker? Is it because the .ini tweaking is too much for your interest in the game? Does the alternate bullet graphics make the game feel too fast-paced?



Honestly, I'm asking, because I really don't understand why there would be so much hate for a mod that simply externalized the files to make other modding easier, I don't see why 1.13 would be such a change from base JA2.

The mercs haven't changed, the locations haven't changed, the banter hasn't changed, the guns haven't changed, the story hasn't changed...


1.13 simply enables the USER to customize his experience to his difficulty level. It opened the door so that you can decide that YOU want more enemies, YOU want the Drassen Counter-Attack (which actually makes sense, because in the dialogue cutscene, she does say she will send a big force to take it back).

So, how does a "mod" that simply offers YOU the ability for Quality of Life improvements and higher resolution take away from the soul of JA2?

As far as I know, with 15+ years of playing JA2 1.13 pretty religiously, the reason I play 1.13 is that the soul of JA2 is intact, while providing me with options (I decide what I want) to make the game harder.



I'm NOT looking for a 'fight'.. more to understand such thoughts, as in my mind, 1.13 is what has kept JA2 pretty much alive and still pumping out content to this actual day. Without it and it's push to constantly tweak the file system and externalize content, there would be way less full mods for JA2, way less attention to the game as well.

[Tzg]

I can only speak for myself since you called me out 🙂 

I don’t hate 1.13. I played 1.13 million times. I just feel like 1.13 changed the game beyond what Jagged Alliance 2 is - a quirky TBS with some light realism and loads of pisstake on 90s action movies. 
1.13 pushed it into realm of seriousness and realism. Not what JA is or ever was about. 

For better graphics, resolution etc - I have straciatella mod. 

[D13]

It just does not feel well-balanced to me.

To explain why, I need to differentiate between technical changes (like higher resolution) and gameplay changes (new objects, new inventory, ...).

I'm fine with the former, which is why my undisputed favorite is JA2 Stracciatella.

The problem with the gameplay changes in 1.13 is that throughout a campaign, these changes tend to benefit the player more than the AI, simply because the player can adapt to them. Having a larger LBE/inventory allows the player to enter battle with more tactical options. The AI is just not able to fill every last pocket with the most useful item for a soldier in a particular location, let alone use every item as effectively as a human would. Having more scopes and firebombs and whatnot gives the player more tactical options and increased lethality, and although the AI can use them, it does not use them quite as well. Being able to sidestep while crouching or prone helps a lot, but I've never seen the AI peek around a corner or enter a building like that (to be fair, not with standing sidestep either).

During one turn the difference is negligible, during one battle it is seldom noticeable, but during an entire campaign it all adds up.

That being said, 1.13 is not meant to be a game/mod in and by itself, and it would be unfair to judge it as such. It's a foundation for mods, and those mods should take care of proper balancing by carefully choosing the 1.13 options and settings that make sense for them.

[MateKiddleton]

I liked the inclusion of the JA1 mercs, everything else just made the whole game an edgy milsim. It's not a game anymore, it's a military management excercise. At that point why even call it 'Jagged Alliance', it should just be called 'Spec Ops in Arulco'.

[GODSPEED]

@Tzg@D13@MateKiddleton

What part of 1.13 that is forced on you turns the game into a milsim?

[Tzg]

1 hour ago, GODSPEED said:

@Tzg@D13@MateKiddleton

What part of 1.13 that is forced on you turns the game into a milsim?

@GODSPEED let me reply by quoting yourself : 

I'm NOT looking for a 'fight'.. more to understand such thoughts

This are my thoughts. It feels like that for me. I don’t need it and similar to @MateKiddleton it doesn’t feel

like Jagged Alliance to me anymore. I don’t have problem with people loving it to the extreme of being borderline fanatics. Each to their own - but I do have problem when loud fanatics are trying to impose their version on everyone. 

[5Cents]

17 hours ago, GODSPEED said:

I seem to come across so many comments like the one below on this forum:

I usually don't reply or ask within the topic, because it would completely sidetrack the original post topic.


So, my question to those who don't like 1.13, why do you guys hate it so much? What is it about 1.13 that takes away from JA2 without 1.13?


Does playing with a higher resolution kill the immersion? Does having some quality of life features like many more hotkeys kill the joy of JA2? Does having the option of seeing the complete cone of vision of your merc, instead of the select square take away from JA2?

Does the option of having more weapons create too much of a problem? Does the option of having a new type of inventory kill your joy? Does the option of having higher difficulty with more enemies kill the fun of the game? Does the option of having a large counter-attack on drassen halt your fun?

Is the addition of the JA1 roster a deal-breaker? Is it because the .ini tweaking is too much for your interest in the game? Does the alternate bullet graphics make the game feel too fast-paced?



Honestly, I'm asking, because I really don't understand why there would be so much hate for a mod that simply externalized the files to make other modding easier, I don't see why 1.13 would be such a change from base JA2.

The mercs haven't changed, the locations haven't changed, the banter hasn't changed, the guns haven't changed, the story hasn't changed...


1.13 simply enables the USER to customize his experience to his difficulty level. It opened the door so that you can decide that YOU want more enemies, YOU want the Drassen Counter-Attack (which actually makes sense, because in the dialogue cutscene, she does say she will send a big force to take it back).

So, how does a "mod" that simply offers YOU the ability for Quality of Life improvements and higher resolution take away from the soul of JA2?

As far as I know, with 15+ years of playing JA2 1.13 pretty religiously, the reason I play 1.13 is that the soul of JA2 is intact, while providing me with options (I decide what I want) to make the game harder.



I'm NOT looking for a 'fight'.. more to understand such thoughts, as in my mind, 1.13 is what has kept JA2 pretty much alive and still pumping out content to this actual day. Without it and it's push to constantly tweak the file system and externalize content, there would be way less full mods for JA2, way less attention to the game as well.

Why do you think people hate 1.13?

I think 50% of the (old) Jagged-fan Community still love it and taking it as their measure for JA3. Which makes sense in their world.

On the other hand, there ARE gamers, who prefered JA2 Vanilla Style (and their mods (Wildfiremod, Vietnam Mod, etc)).

I liked both.

I dont think there is a right or wrong. And for me it doesnt matter, what someone likes better or even hate something, i like.

Some people love XYZ, some dont, some just dont care and see it as it is. Entertainment.

A game is not something like a holy book and even these were rewritten and these rewrites were rewritten again over centuries.

My Explanation and Psych. Digression: there will be always people who still hate anything, because its part of human nature loving to hate anything 🤭

Prophecy: I suppose, there will be a JA3 "1.13" and everything what is now will be forgotten again🤭
And JA4 (if universe wants it) will be measured by JA3 "1.13" again...
And people allover will repeat their nuisance-nonsense again.

 

[Jaywalker]

It's not about like or dislike, it's about setting the correct expectations.

Jagged Alliance 3 is a sequel to Jagged Alliance 2, not the 1.13 mod: "1.13 had it" is NOT a valid argument to include any feature or function.

Is the inventory management in JA3 too basic? Yes.
Should it in any way resemble 1.13? Absolutely not.
So on and so forth on pretty much any topic.

[chr_isso]

22 hours ago, Jaywalker said:

It's not about like or dislike, it's about setting the correct expectations.

Jagged Alliance 3 is a sequel to Jagged Alliance 2, not the 1.13 mod: "1.13 had it" is NOT a valid argument to include any feature or function.

Is the inventory management in JA3 too basic? Yes.
Should it in any way resemble 1.13? Absolutely not.
So on and so forth on pretty much any topic.

couldn't have said it better. get my thanks for that.
JA3 is a promising base for all the mods that are to come, i guess we can all stay tuned.

[Grim]

To be clear, I love 1.13, I played it for years, etc.

But I can understand some modifications could have changed the experience too much, and if you're not that knowledgeable about the options, it can be a mess to choose what you want.

At some point, the default options were not very player friendly. For example, the (massive) counterattack option made the game nearly impossible, since as soon as you conquered a sector, dozens and dozens of enemies came to take it back. Unless you used cheesy tactics and a lot of save scumming, you couldn't stand your ground.

Other than that, 1.13 mod has really impressive features, and all toggleable. A real marvel in its time.

[Claudius33]

I don't think that 1.13 gets so much hate.

I personally admire the guys who showed such a determination and dived into thousands of C/C++ lines and provided the players with high resolution, new features and mechanisms. My only (minor) gripe is that wanting for best they somehow unbalanced the game.

I think that people are just reacting to the incredible amount of harsh and sometimes very inappropriate critiscims, several times despising the work of the devs made by 1.13 worshippers, that JA3 received in this forum and others.

Edited July 20, 2023 by Claudius33
syntax

[GODSPEED]

On 7/19/2023 at 6:25 AM, Jaywalker said:

It's not about like or dislike, it's about setting the correct expectations.

Jagged Alliance 3 is a sequel to Jagged Alliance 2, not the 1.13 mod: "1.13 had it" is NOT a valid argument to include any feature or function.

Is the inventory management in JA3 too basic? Yes.
Should it in any way resemble 1.13? Absolutely not.
So on and so forth on pretty much any topic.

I'm not making any reference to JA3 though, which is why I hid this in the "Off Topic" section of the forum.

I'm asking a question out of curiosity, that is all... I feel like asking that question is setting some people angry. ?

For me, I simply remember trying JA2 a few times and just wanting to play with higher resolution and found that mod like 15 or so years ago... I've always knew it added some features to the game, but never felt like it changed what Jagged Alliance was. So for me 1.13 was perfect because of the added difficulty options and resolution while keeping the game intact.

I would understand when some say that a mod changes a game if you were to play something like Urban Chaos or Deidranna Lives! (before 1.13 ever existed) as those really changed the setting and story, added new mechanics in the game, like a subway station traveling, weapons that were eastern block, etc..

Only since joining this forum I've found lots of negative comments towards 1.13, so for me, that part is really new. Just wondering if some of the newer updates have screwed things up, or what the heck infuriates people so badly about 1.13.. that was pretty much it. Which is why I said "not looking for a fight" 'cause it's purely curiosity here. Never saw that amount of negative comments towards 1.13 elsewhere (very rarely anyways).

[Melliores]

@GODSPEED

Have you browsed the Bear's Pit forums?

There were a lot of mods that added quality of life features for JA2, the most beloved of those being Straciatella. However if you go to those forums you will see quite often the opinion that you either like only JA2 v. 1.13 or you are unwashed Xcom 2 player.

 

There is a lot of name calling from those long-time players, even including against other JA2 mods. Or how you should play JA2 v.1.13 the proper way if you have installed it. For example anything not using the new inventory system with the LBE is considered a heresy, although that is a toggle in the .ini file and when starting a new game.

 

If you browse the main forum here you will see a few opinions that not only want a better inventory system, they want that very specific 1.13 inventory - and if it is not included, then they will not play any other game in their life.

From what I gather, no one hates JA2 1.13 - people simply dislike the elitist behavior of a group of JA2 1.13 fans that even resort to spamming to get their voice heard.

Edited July 20, 2023 by Melliores

[Jaywalker]

14 minutes ago, GODSPEED said:

I'm not making any reference to JA3 though, which is why I hid this in the "Off Topic" section of the forum.

All of the supposed "hate" happens when discussing things that 1.13 has that JA3 doesn't.
It is absolutely relevant to mention this.

1.13 is great at what it tries to do, it's very smart about some of the things it does, but it is not a quintessential Jagged Alliance game, it tries to fix problems that it mostly creates itself, resulting in a weird blend of tactic-cool realism and frustrating oddities.

[GODSPEED]

4 minutes ago, Jaywalker said:

All of the supposed "hate" happens when discussing things that 1.13 has that JA3 doesn't.
It is absolutely relevant to mention this.

JA3 IS NOT part of my discussion topic, please see my op if in doubt. I'm asking purely from a curiosity from a JA2 vs 1.13 standpoint.

I don't care whether JA3 has 1.13 features in this question. I'm not an elitist. But I ask a simple question and I see flames and talking about JA3 when I'm NOT comparing.

 

 

7 minutes ago, Melliores said:

@GODSPEED

Have you browsed the Bear's Pit forums?

Not in many years. I don't like forums and this is the first one I join in a while (previous JA game). I sometimes scroll through Steam, but rarely there too. It's a horrible place 85% of the time.

Either you try and have a discussion/friendly argument and are met with those who can't converse or just go on the insult. I avoid that. I talk to you the way I'd talk to anyone, with respect and dignity, regardless your opinions. I'd expect other human beings to be the same.... 🤣

[Melliores]

Well, do not open the Bear's Pit forums then. 🙂

There are literally players over that that state "I hate this game because it does not have this " and it is mostly a feature of the 1.13. A toggleable feature at that that not all 1.13 players use.

It can be a very ... awkward place if you want to have a sane discussion there.
 

[yert]

i didnt realise 1.13 got hate.

On 7/21/2023 at 7:23 AM, Jaywalker said:

it is not a quintessential Jagged Alliance game, it tries to fix problems that it mostly creates itself, resulting in a weird blend of tactic-cool realism and frustrating oddities

On 7/19/2023 at 2:57 AM, Tzg said:

I just feel like 1.13 changed the game beyond what Jagged Alliance 2 is - a quirky TBS with some light realism and loads of pisstake on 90s action movies. 
1.13 pushed it into realm of seriousness and realism. Not what JA is or ever was about.

I can't say I like a lot of the things that 1.13 attempts to do but even base JA2 is a more in-depth turn based tactics game than a lot of modern descendants of the genre. I cant agree with the sentiment that 1.13 is the wrong direction when base JA2 is still miles ahead as one of the most mechanically deep turn based tactics game.

[Tzg]

54 minutes ago, yert said:

i didnt realise 1.13 got hate.

I can't say I like a lot of the things that 1.13 attempts to do but even base JA2 is a more in-depth turn based tactics game than a lot of modern descendants of the genre. I cant agree with the sentiment that 1.13 is the wrong direction when base JA2 is still miles ahead as one of the most mechanically deep turn based tactics game.

Sure it is. Agreed 100%.for me and let me say it loud FOR ME - 1.13 isn’t the way to go 😉

[yert]

15 hours ago, Tzg said:

Sure it is. Agreed 100%.for me and let me say it loud FOR ME - 1.13 isn’t the way to go 😉

Would you say that explicitly all additions made in 1.13 (outside of basic QoL) go against your idea of 'the way to go'?

[Tzg]

18 hours ago, yert said:

Would you say that explicitly all additions made in 1.13 (outside of basic QoL) go against your idea of 'the way to go'?

No. But I (again let me say it loud again - it’s for ME and MY OWN opinion) don’t need 1.13 at all. Once I ‘discovered’ (or really been told about it here) Straciatella mod I completely dumped 1.13 and never looked back. 

[Haywire]

On 8/5/2023 at 7:28 AM, Tzg said:

No. But I (again let me say it loud again - it’s for ME and MY OWN opinion) don’t need 1.13 at all. Once I ‘discovered’ (or really been told about it here) Straciatella mod I completely dumped 1.13 and never looked back. 

Same here. Only thing that bothers me about Straciatella is that there`s no options to turn of mercenary deaths during A.I.M. deployment. Really hate that when I want to pick somebody up later, there`s a chance that he dies through no fault of my own.

[m0rphl1ng]

I understand there are some 1.13 features that the AI is not able to utilize. Yes, the AI can't side step or peek around corners. And yes they can't utilize every single slot in the new inventory system like a human player can. However...there are some MAJOR AI 1.13 features that can't be used by human players, for example: tanks and jeeps on patrols, endless helicopters dropping elite teams in sectors, Generals buffing movement for all of the Queen's soldiers. Those are MAJOR advantages the AI has over human players.

 

The whole purpose of 1.13 is to place more emphasis on tactics (battle maneuvers) for human players, and place more emphasis on strategic resources for the Queen.

In other words, 1.13 gives us better equipment options and maneuvers in the game, but the Queen gets Generals that buff army response times, and gets endless tanks, jeeps and helicopters that move all around the map.

 

So no, the changes in 1.13 do NOT benefit the player more than the Queen. There is a tradeoff, and its more balanced than Vanilla, especially the gun attachment overhaul...The ability to use a sniper scope on every Vanilla JA2 gun is too imbalanced and broken.