If Snipers are OP, MG's are Godmode! (RPG-7's for Anti-Personel use? WTF!!)

[GODSPEED]

After recently adding an MG to one of my squads... humm.... they don't feel like MG's but like laser guns. The more I'm getting into the high-end weaponry (HK 21, FN Minimi) the more I feel the game is broken and was tweaked only for the early part.

Setting up an MG and watching all the constant "laser" fire coming out of it and pretty much decimating 5-6 enemies in one single enemy turn.... sorry, it's too much. Now, I don't really feel like using them, because the AI is downright almost JA2 level stupid. They just pile up with no regard for the zone of fire that is set up.

At this point, MG's don't miss a single bullet, neither from myself, nor from the enemy. I'm playing a map where I had to place my mercs right next to where enemies enter the map (I don't get why I can't place my mercs ANYWHERE on maps I currently "own"). I MANAGE to pop off an RPG and decimate half the group, but they simply set up two mg's covering my entire team. This is my secondary squad, if ANYONE moves, they get Minimi'd twice in a row and die. My second squad doesn't have a merc with the shot that removes "overwatch" and ignores it either.


I get it, bipods help accuracy. They should NOT eliminate recoil completely. Especially not at the amount of bullets MG's fire. I get it from small arms fire; Famas, AK, G36... sure, low recoil weapons, you get 3 bullets hit you. Ok. But an HK 21, Minimi, MG42 should have some spread, even if it's minor, regardless how many upgrades.

Each bullet just impacts the exact same spot!



Oh, and a sidenote, RPG-7's. Why the hell are they being used in an Anti-Personel manner? These things are made to defeat armored vehicle & tanks. That thing would split you open and just keep going, no? I got a bunch or RPG's and rockets before ever getting 40mm grenades. Are there tanks or heavy vehicles in the game? (unless you count the ones used for cover that explode within a second of each other).

[Melliores]

Yep, I had a similar experience with HK21 kitted out for long range engagements. In the hands of someone with heavy weapons specialist a long burst costs 3 AP, fully aimed - 6 AP. You can do at least 2 aimed bursts per turn with a bipod and then on their turn the Overwatch cone is still active.

Regarding RPG-7 use as a crowd-dispersal weapon - it has been used in this role for decades in various civil wars in Asia and Africa. Usually due to lack of armor-piercing ammo. It does the job, especially if you have some of those thermobaric rockets at your disposal. Then the RPG becomes a mini bunker-buster.

Most of the damage the HE rocket will do to humans is from shrapnel and falling debris (the ceiling if you are in building). The rocket uses a shaped explosive to penetrate vehicle armour, thus you will experience a serious kinetic wave and then be littered with shrapnel. Now, if they used thermobaric rockets... let us just say there won't be much left to identify the bodies afterwards.

Edited July 23, 2023 by Melliores

[GODSPEED]

32 minutes ago, Melliores said:

Regarding RPG-7 use as a crowd-dispersal weapon - it has been used in this role for decades in various civil wars in Asia

No doubt!!

But the use here in small squad encounters like 8 vs 8, feels really out of place. It's more a cheese weapon where you "ambush" enemies entering a sector and they are completely bunched up and you take half of them out in one rpg shot.

Especially how early I still feel I am in the game...

[Skaldy]

39 minutes ago, Melliores said:

Yep, I had a similar experience with HK21 kitted out for long range engagements. In the hands of someone with heavy weapons specialist a long burst costs 3 AP, fully aimed - 6 AP. You can do at least 2 aimed bursts per turn with a bipod and then on their turn the Overwatch cone is still active.

Regarding RPG-7 use as a crowd-dispersal weapon - it has been used in this role for decades in various civil wars in Asia and Africa. Usually due to lack of armor-piercing ammo. It does the job, especially if you have some of those thermobaric rockets at your disposal. Then the RPG becomes a mini bunker-buster.

Most of the damage the HE rocket will do to humans is from shrapnel and falling debris (the ceiling if you are in building). The rocket uses a shaped explosive to penetrate vehicle armour, thus you will experience a serious kinetic wave and then be littered with shrapnel. Now, if they used thermobaric rockets... let us just say there won't be much left to identify the bodies afterwards.

LOL, you said you havent ever got HK21 ever in your one and only play through, now you claim  fully kitted "HK21" is in your position? Dude do you even feel shame at this point to lie this much? Or you are from marketing perhaps?

1 hour ago, GODSPEED said:

After recently adding an MG to one of my squads... humm.... they don't feel like MG's but like laser guns. The more I'm getting into the high-end weaponry (HK 21, FN Minimi) the more I feel the game is broken and was tweaked only for the early part.

Setting up an MG and watching all the constant "laser" fire coming out of it and pretty much decimating 5-6 enemies in one single enemy turn.... sorry, it's too much. Now, I don't really feel like using them, because the AI is downright almost JA2 level stupid. They just pile up with no regard for the zone of fire that is set up.

At this point, MG's don't miss a single bullet, neither from myself, nor from the enemy. I'm playing a map where I had to place my mercs right next to where enemies enter the map (I don't get why I can't place my mercs ANYWHERE on maps I currently "own"). I MANAGE to pop off an RPG and decimate half the group, but they simply set up two mg's covering my entire team. This is my secondary squad, if ANYONE moves, they get Minimi'd twice in a row and die. My second squad doesn't have a merc with the shot that removes "overwatch" and ignores it either.


I get it, bipods help accuracy. They should NOT eliminate recoil completely. Especially not at the amount of bullets MG's fire. I get it from small arms fire; Famas, AK, G36... sure, low recoil weapons, you get 3 bullets hit you. Ok. But an HK 21, Minimi, MG42 should have some spread, even if it's minor, regardless how many upgrades.

Each bullet just impacts the exact same spot!



Oh, and a sidenote, RPG-7's. Why the hell are they being used in an Anti-Personel manner? These things are made to defeat armored vehicle & tanks. That thing would split you open and just keep going, no? I got a bunch or RPG's and rockets before ever getting 40mm grenades. Are there tanks or heavy vehicles in the game? (unless you count the ones used for cover that explode within a second of each other).

Yes you are correct BUT ammo/no economy should have limited you from using machine guns. Because, multiple enemy squads=multiple bursts and ammo is spent faster. One of early game problems i had was having a mg in my squad and all the time i ran out of ammunition. After furious testing with RNG i decided to do combat using sniper and melee stealth(2 mercs) now i think i can afford mid late game mg madness.

 

You are very wrong about RPG7 and variants. Military definition of that weapon is Hand-held Anti personnel/anti tank grenade launcher. IRL i used it and it comes with multiple warheads. Regular HE one is anti-personnel and AT is high limited in squad compositions. British PIAT does the same job, instead of doing direct attacks, PIAT lobs grenades to air because tank armor(old) thinnest on top. If you look at Middle Eastern military, these things are fired like low rate explosives lobber

Edited July 23, 2023 by Skaldy

[Melliores]

@GODSPEED

It can feel like that but if they have good armour they should survive the initial blast from the HE rocket and be wounded. What I am more worried about are those shaped charges Barry carries around - now those are not fair, the AI simply does not have such a weapon in their arsenal. 🙂

 

@Skaldy

 

I posted a whole thread about my experience with Meltdown wielding the HK21 fully kitted out. You even commented there - twice!

Can we please stop with this trolling?

[Warmonger]

2 hours ago, GODSPEED said:

After recently adding an MG to one of my squads... humm.... they don't feel like MG's but like laser guns. The more I'm getting into the high-end weaponry (HK 21, FN Minimi) the more I feel the game is broken and was tweaked only for the early part.

Setting up an MG and watching all the constant "laser" fire coming out of it and pretty much decimating 5-6 enemies in one single enemy turn.... sorry, it's too much. Now, I don't really feel like using them, because the AI is downright almost JA2 level stupid. They just pile up with no regard for the zone of fire that is set up.

At this point, MG's don't miss a single bullet, neither from myself, nor from the enemy. I'm playing a map where I had to place my mercs right next to where enemies enter the map (I don't get why I can't place my mercs ANYWHERE on maps I currently "own"). I MANAGE to pop off an RPG and decimate half the group, but they simply set up two mg's covering my entire team. This is my secondary squad, if ANYONE moves, they get Minimi'd twice in a row and die. My second squad doesn't have a merc with the shot that removes "overwatch" and ignores it either.


I get it, bipods help accuracy. They should NOT eliminate recoil completely. Especially not at the amount of bullets MG's fire. I get it from small arms fire; Famas, AK, G36... sure, low recoil weapons, you get 3 bullets hit you. Ok. But an HK 21, Minimi, MG42 should have some spread, even if it's minor, regardless how many upgrades.

Each bullet just impacts the exact same spot!



Oh, and a sidenote, RPG-7's. Why the hell are they being used in an Anti-Personel manner? These things are made to defeat armored vehicle & tanks. That thing would split you open and just keep going, no? I got a bunch or RPG's and rockets before ever getting 40mm grenades. Are there tanks or heavy vehicles in the game? (unless you count the ones used for cover that explode within a second of each other).

Depends on the gunner(a skilled merc a lot. Also find enough ammo for. At first your Impression us right is right but get deeper into the  and you will find out how much effort it is to support just one MG in constant use.

[Skaldy]

31 minutes ago, Melliores said:

@GODSPEED

It can feel like that but if they have good armour they should survive the initial blast from the HE rocket and be wounded. What I am more worried about are those shaped charges Barry carries around - now those are not fair, the AI simply does not have such a weapon in their arsenal. 🙂

 

@Skaldy

 

I posted a whole thread about my experience with Meltdown wielding the HK21 fully kitted out. You even commented there - twice!

Can we please stop with this trolling?

hello marketing dude, thanks for proving me right about you making up sh*t. Here i took this pic just for you. Also tell me what this static loot is, i have yet to find those.

Edited July 23, 2023 by Skaldy

[Melliores]

I am really losing faith in your english language skills. Static loot means guaranteed loot from a specific container and sector. It means that I only found one HK21 at a very specific location in a secret stash. In both threads I wrote that I found and have used the weapon.

Now, can we stop with this trolling ?

Edited July 23, 2023 by Melliores

[Skaldy]

@Melliores Trolling stops with you marketing dude. I am not here for damage control. I know what it means, just give me a exact location so i can check if you are lying or not. If you dont recall our entire disagreement originated from RNG and ammo issues, ammo which i dont have, to fight those bosses and loot their unique weapons.

I hope your static HK21 location is real.

Edited July 23, 2023 by Skaldy

[GODSPEED]

3 minutes ago, Skaldy said:

@Melliores Trolling stops with you marketing dude. I am not here for damage control. I know what it means, just give me a exact location so i can check if you are lying or not. If you dont recall our entire disagreement originated from RNG and ammo issues, ammo which i dont have, to fight those bosses and loot their unique weapons.

I hope your static HK21 location is real.

@Skaldy, why are you hijacking my topic?


The guy never said he didn't get an HK 21.. He said he never got AUG, G36 or AK-74. He said he got the Dragunov, HK 21 and AA12 from static loot.

That has also been my experience. Never found those weapons on bodies, but in containers that either required high lockpick skills or exploring locations that did not see all the relevant. I also myself, found the G36 and AK-74 the same way, exploring locations and unlocking containers.

Why should he tell you exactly where they are? Think we stop to take note at every location we find a cool gun?

Hopefully, the game might have been programmed with a tiny bit of randomness, meaning we can find a certain "coolness factor" in a container and not exactly the same weapon every time. JA2 only had the randomness that either it is there, or it isn't. Only some lockers/containers had  different options of content sometimes (but not guns).

Now, can we get back on topic?


This is about MG's shooting out like lasers with no recoil.

[StoProGratis]

Sooo it's like Ja2. That's why I've started my game with Automatic weapons IMP. HK21 in JA2 was best weapon IMO.

[GODSPEED]

1 minute ago, StoProGratis said:

Sooo it's like Ja2. That's why I've started my game with Automatic weapons IMP. HK21 in JA2 was best weapon IMO.

Well... that's among the things I wish were upgraded from JA2. I mean, we are talking about a game that made use of 2D sprites on 2D ground. Bullet "calculations" were 'simple'.

If you read some of the dev diarys, you'll see that they have a full cone of possible hit locations.

This is a 3D game, wish they have made use of the fact MG's are meant as "suppressive" weapons and at least provided them with a little feeling of recoil. You aim for the torso.. have a shot hit a leg, one hit the guy behind, another hit another guys arm.. hit the other barrel behind.

I'm not even talking "suppression" like in 1.13.... just plain normal recoil from many rounds fired. If anyone ever played Airsoft, well it looks like someone who decked out their gun with a fast motor and 12v li-po... it comes out like a laser with no recoil.

[username55]

I like the MGs. I really do. It was quite an experience using them when I was in a tight spot, and watching my gunner clear the map.

On squat level, why do you think every army has one in their units? Where I am from, it's 6 to 8 guys, one MG.

BUT:

x) it is reasonably balanced with ammo availability in game IMO. I stopped using MGs for now, because I simply do not have the ammo...

ALSO:

x) enemy AI indeed needs an upgrade I think, they should definitely hide more.

x) to me, accuracy seemed fine in-game, never noticed "laser-like" behaviour.

[J1v1n]

So far MGs feel somehow balanced to me (not too far into the game though with just two RPKs). Sure they have a wide overview cone and since the enemy AI doesn't seem to be too smart quite a few enemies run into the line of fire but ammunition shortage is limiting me in using it. I rather use aimed single shots to save ammunition. 🥸

[640er]

Just wait until you use a stationary MG for the first time...

I was fighting the private army at the Landsbach mine (well equipped and string enemies). Was there with my B-squad (4 mercs). All of them except one died. I managed to get him onto the stationary MG and he cleared the sector only by doing the default overwatch. Stupid AI just ran into the cone and he was sniping them with laserbursts. 

[Skaldy]

Just now, 640er said:

Just wait until you use a stationary MG for the first time...

I was fighting the private army at the Landsbach mine (well equipped and string enemies). Was there with my B-squad (4 mercs). All of them except one died. I managed to get him onto the stationary MG and he cleared the sector only by doing the default overwatch. Stupid AI just ran into the cone and he was sniping them with laserbursts. 

are you implying he skipped Ernie Island?

[Jaywalker]

Opportunistic Killer makes LMG's extra deadly, especially on Raven. 😍

[640er]

37 minutes ago, Skaldy said:

are you implying he skipped Ernie Island?

No but I never used the MG there and therefore forgot about it

[LXant]

If snipers are OP and MGs are godmode, then Ivan with a HE grenade launcher is the opening of Τάρταρος, hell itself, from which divine punishment hits the enemy and kills everyone during one turn.

Seriously, I was testing out how far the game lets me do certain things, one of which was triggering the Refugee Camp event and trying to intercept the enemy. In sector I20 a bunch of armies spawns, probably the biggest group, and if you have good timing, you can attack all of them while they're still on the tile. Although one got away, so it was "only" over 60 enemies.

How did I plan to deal with it? Because Ivan has this:

That's what he dealt with:

In the end nobody had to do anything, maybe kill a wounded straggler here and there, because HE rounds are not found that often. Other than that, Ivan killed each and everyone in one single turn. Something over 55 kills or so, and he had 30 AP left when he was done.

What an absolute beast!

[CersaisAdvocate]

I think the most important factor to balance MGs would be to change the AI behaviour to be more defensiv and not charge just into the bullets. MGs would be more about aerial denial and less about mass murder.

[StoProGratis]

What are you favourite MGs? Minimi is any good?

[CersaisAdvocate]

I like the HK21 and the Minimi. The HK is the stronger rifle but the Minimi has the widest cone and is not cumbersome.

[Solaris_Wave]

I have only seen the MG42 and RPK-74 so far. I haven't used the MG42 as it has a very high rate of fire and while I have a fair amount of 7.62x51mm NATO ammunition, I don't have enough to let the MG42 burn through it. My I.M.P. carries the RPK-74 and aside from me complaining about a Legion Butcher running through the Overwatch cone, not taking any fire and then almost killing Barry with a knife, the RPK-74 has been effective in killing bad guys quickly. I have it fitted with a bipod, drum mag and anything that keeps highest accuracy during bursts. I didn't use the mod to increase the rate of fire as I would rather have consistent accuracy per burst as opposed to more bullets going down range.