JA3 still without basic tactical pause or/and TB set option after first patch

[marcinl0]

- Easy to introduce dear Devs.

[Melliores]

There is the Active Pause mod already. It is overpowered as it is - it can allow you to make 6 perfectly syncronised stealth kills at the same time before you open combat. Or not even open it - all the enemies in the vicinity will be killed by your stealth attacks.

Introducing Active Pause with the current stealth system is game breaking. I can appreciate not everyone is keen on fast clicking in real time, but you have to remember that it will completely trivialise the game for you if you can pause at any time.

If/when the developers want to take a look at active pause, they will need to redesign and balance again a few of the game systems to account for this new functionality. Not as trivial and easy as you think.

Edited August 3, 2023 by Melliores

[sandman25dcsss]

Active pause can be limited to avoid 6 attacks by prohibiting merc switching, you should be able to control just 1 merc in this mode.

It is not fun when unaware enemies run right at you and you cannot shoot even once because you are not clicking fast enough.

[Raeven]

2 hours ago, marcinl0 said:

- Easy to introduce dear Devs.

They're not going to do it. You know this, right?

[Claypl]

I dont mind limiting factor on those things but what kills me is when you trying to setup overwatch or lining up shot and some of your mercs getting on ladder and you stuck until detected.

Some of it (perhaps most) is you could say my fault, but never the less it is super annoying when it happens.

[Attempt]

OMG! They released a patch that didn't change the game in the exact way you wanted even though you keep complaining here like an incessant child every few hours? These devs must be so bad at their job, and stupid too.

Just because you think a bug is easy to fix or a feature trivial to implement does not mean that it is actually so. The fact that they made design decisions that you don't like or didn't make some features better does not mean they didn't know better. Others here on the forum tell you to be patient, you respond to that and literally less than 12 hours later you come again asking when the next patch will be out. And if I had to bet money my guess is you'll be even more annoying when you find out that the next patch STILL isn't exactly what you wanted.

Here are a few things to keep in mind when giving feedback:

- You might not actually be the smartest person in the world
- You most likely are not the CEO of Haemimont Games
- How much knowledge or experience you have about the realities of making software or especially games.

Alternatively you could try to occupy your mind with something that isn't JA3 for a few days or weeks.

[D13]

To have realistic patch expectations, it's also important to differentiate between 1. technical bugs (crashes, malfunctions, ...), 2. individual gameplay issues causing unintended side-effects, and 3. design changes that affect other parts (eg. when to enter turn-based). The latter tend to be the most difficult to fix because they must clear not only technical hurdles, but also the "political" hurdle of someone having to admit they made a bad design decision that needs to be rectified after the release. 

[marcinl0]

Very high popularity overpowered JA3 mod Active Pause mod is direct proof of the need to correctly resolve basic problem: when to enter turn-based in JA3 - reasonably in the second JA3 patch.

 

In JA2 it was much better resolved - whole excellent system merc experience, perks, lights etc. and option to manually enter turn based (JA2 Night Operations for example) or permanent tactical turn based - in JA2 extensions.

In brilliant JA1 was simple solution: all battle sectors = full turn based gameplay.

 

JA3 Dear Devs -> please look at JA2 and JA1 good solutions.

[sandman25dcsss]

6 minutes ago, marcinl0 said:

Very high popularity overpowered JA3 mod Active Pause mod is direct proof of the need to correctly resolve basic problem: when to enter turn-based in JA3 - reasonably in the second JA3 patch.

 

In JA2 it was much better resolved - whole excellent system merc experience, perks, lights etc. and option to manually enter turn based (JA2 Night Operations for example) or permanent tactical turn based - in JA2 extensions.

In brilliant JA1 was simple solution: all battle sectors = full turn based gameplay.

 

JA3 Dear Devs -> please look at JA2 and JA1 good solutions.

Show CtH mod is 3 times more popular, and yet I think it will not be included in next patch 🙂

[Attempt]

Ok, I think this might a lost cause. I give it maybe one or two more patches before we hear the news about a confused rambling person being arrested in front of Haemimont HQ for public disturbance.

[marcinl0]

17 minutes ago, sandman25dcsss said:

Show CtH mod is 3 times more popular, and yet I think it will not be included in next patch 🙂

Some want CtH in patch some not. Or more smart descriptive CtH in patch if better as option.

 

When to enter turn-based in JA3: Devs please include, reasonably in the second JA3 patch, OPTION to manually enter turn based like in JA2 Night Operations for example - or permanent tactical turn based option.

And everyone will be pleased like JA2 and JA1 players.

Edited August 3, 2023 by marcinl0

[mrflagio]

7 hours ago, Melliores said:

There is the Active Pause mod already. It is overpowered as it is - it can allow you to make 6 perfectly syncronised stealth kills at the same time before you open combat. Or not even open it - all the enemies in the vicinity will be killed by your stealth attacks.

Introducing Active Pause with the current stealth system is game breaking. I can appreciate not everyone is keen on fast clicking in real time, but you have to remember that it will completely trivialise the game for you if you can pause at any time.

If/when the developers want to take a look at active pause, they will need to redesign and balance again a few of the game systems to account for this new functionality. Not as trivial and easy as you think.

So we should suffer with a non-responsive UI and goofy real-time mechanics as well as twitch-based gameplay in a turn-based game because why?

And you can't set up 6 synchronized stealth kills.  Stop it already.

The game is strictly worse without active pause.  The bottom bar UI hides itself, mercs don't respond to being selected, there is no minimap, insufficient hotkeys, the indicator for being spotted is hidden based on camera pan, it's not shown in the sidebar at all for unselected squads, animations have a hidden wonky windup time, movement isn't obvious, etc.

And that's without mentioning that this isn't just related to stealth kills.  When the enemy squad enters a sector and I deploy and want to run to defensive positions I need to click on each merc and send them to their positions almost simultaneously.  I'm not a 400APM Starcraft pro and that's why I play turn-based games.  This isn't balance stuff, this is QOL (and sanity) stuff.

Edited August 3, 2023 by mrflagio

[sandman25dcsss]

@mrflagio

I hope you know about tilda key (below Esc), it selects all mercs

Edited August 3, 2023 by sandman25dcsss

[mrflagio]

3 minutes ago, sandman25dcsss said:

@mrflagio

I hope you know about tilda key (below Esc), it selects all mercs

It selects only mercs in the current selected squad.  It also doesn't help me when I want one person to get on a roof and another to flank and another to close in and another to set up overwatch.

Edited August 3, 2023 by mrflagio

[Melliores]

You can currently set up a double-stealth kill without active pause. One merc prepares a melee kill and you order them to move next to the targer. Tap on TAB for your next merc, tap 1 (to go into aiming and slow down time). Wait for the first merc to be almost there and then shoot at the second target more or less synced with the attack of the first one.

The game allows for multiple synced kills in real time. If you have active pause, you can issue six (or twelve or eighteen) shooting commands all at once. Try it for yourself using the Active pause mod - it breaks the game in more ways then one.

Another example is using explosives if stealth kills are not to your liking - you can stack 2-3-4-5 grenades (normal or 40 mm) around the same area. If done right, you can demolish a whole building in a manner of seconds with your syncronised attack.

This completely throws balance out of the window if you want active pause. For example you will need to rework how the surprised status works as you can simply pause, check who has noticed your merc and then issue a command to move elsewhere. This happens often also on sector entry, so you can completely avoid a prepared enemy ambush with Active pause.


By all means, have active pause for those who prefer to have a more relaxed game. But do not expect it any time soon - a lot of game systems will need to be redesigned to account for it.

Edited August 3, 2023 by Melliores

[mrflagio]

50 minutes ago, Melliores said:

The game allows for multiple synced kills in real time. If you have active pause, you can issue six (or twelve or eighteen) shooting commands all at once. Try it for yourself using the Active pause mod - it breaks the game in more ways then one.

That's a mod using dev tools.  Active pause mod also freezes the game when you pause during cutscenes.  It's a bit janky which is why we're asking for a real solution from the developers.  You have this idea that any kind of pausing in real-time mode will fundamentally break the game no matter how it's implemented so we all need to suffer.

[Melliores]

I clearly stated that it will break the game's balance. The game will still be running fine, but most of the systems will be quasi-obsolete because you can always be on top of what is happening. 🙂

The game with its current design is adapted to you not always being able to react to everything. Case in point - DeeDee Bombastic and her bomb toy that is set to explode a few seconds after you get closer to her hut. Or the timed explosives traps that Larry has set up around Camp Savane. Or the waves during Biff's battle at Hill station. All of these were placed there with the expectation that you are playing the game in real time and that they will catch you off guard.

A real active pause can be implemented as you have seen with the dev tools however this will mean to completely redesign whole parts of the game.

Edited August 3, 2023 by Melliores

[sandman25dcsss]

7 minutes ago, Melliores said:

I clearly stated that it will break the game's balance. The game will still be running fine, but most of the systems will be quasi-obsolete because you can always be on top of what is happening. 🙂

The game with its current design is adapted to you not always being able to react to everything. Case in point - DeeDee Bombastic and her bomb toy that is set to explode a few seconds after you get closer to her hut. Or the timed explosives traps that Larry has set up around Camp Savane. Or the waves during Biff's battle at Hill station. All of these were placed there with the expectation that you are playing the game in real time and that they will catch you off guard.

A real active pause can be implemented as you have seen with the dev tools however this will mean to completely redesign whole parts of the game.

And all those are the worst fights in the game. If I wanted to feel pressure, I would play FPS or RTS instead.

[Melliores]

I can relate to you not enjoying real time pressure. I personally am neutral on this - I have played too many hours of the old Isometric RPGs and do like a lot real time with pause.

But I do enjoy a challenge and some variety. Being able to always react kind of kills the pace of the game.

That said, the point stands - as you can see yourselves, whole parts will need to be changed to adapt the game to real time with pause. That might be more enjoyable to some players but it will take immense time and effort to change huge chunks of the game - it won't be a simple change as a "Voilà, press Space bar and now you can pause the game."

Edited August 3, 2023 by Melliores

[mrflagio]

The challenge is the UI.  It becomes totally non-responsive during certain actions and is designed for a turn-based game.  Using it for an RTS that requires micro-ing individual units like a zerg master in Starcraft is sadism.

[CersaisAdvocate]

15 hours ago, Melliores said:

There is the Active Pause mod already. It is overpowered as it is - it can allow you to make 6 perfectly syncronised stealth kills at the same time before you open combat. Or not even open it - all the enemies in the vicinity will be killed by your stealth attacks.

Introducing Active Pause with the current stealth system is game breaking. I can appreciate not everyone is keen on fast clicking in real time, but you have to remember that it will completely trivialise the game for you if you can pause at any time.

If/when the developers want to take a look at active pause, they will need to redesign and balance again a few of the game systems to account for this new functionality. Not as trivial and easy as you think.

I use the active pause mod and I do not think that you can make that 6 people kill that easily with it. It is surely a bit easier and it makes having more than one sneaky guy in the team useful but it is not gamebemreaking op.

[marcinl0]

but necessary of active pause mod is senseless - why not as standard simple option or hotkey.

[sandman25dcsss]

4 hours ago, marcinl0 said:

but necessary of active pause mod is senseless - why not as standard simple option or hotkey.

Because it breaks balance. See what devs say about Show CtH mod.

[Raeven]

55 minutes ago, sandman25dcsss said:

Because it breaks balance. See what devs say about Show CtH mod.

You know, I think this is true. 

One of the biggest complaints people had at first was that stealth was overpowered, yet we are talking about a mod that makes stealth much more powerful being 'necessary'.

There's another way to look at it. Yes, the UI is kinda fiddly, and it's a turn base game. But the thing is, the lack of pause does add tension and stress and uncertainty to the stealth system. That's not necessarily a bad thing. @sandman25dcsss said something about it not being fun to have stealth broken because they weren't fast enough, but there's a flipside to that - on a few occasions, I have managed to pull off a simultaneous ranged and melee stealth kill with two different mercs, and while it was really difficult to pull off, when I did it felt *glorious*.

I think the real question is, does the game allow you to recover and play through the encounter if your stealth plan falls apart? And I think the answer to that is yes, it does. 

Not having things always go according to plan is the intended experience I think.

[sandman25dcsss]

This is not only about stealth. There is a quest encounter when enemies run to you and turn-based phase triggers when some enemies are adjacent to mercs and shooting at them can kill civilians. It took me several reloads to trigger the fight while the enemies were still running.