DevDiary 6 - Combat, Part one

[Zwolf]

10 hours ago, chr_isso said:

and that is exactly why CTH should not be in the game.
YOU should know if your chances are at 20%, 50% or 70%.
This was always a huge part of JA2 Vanilla -> Do you move closer, maybe to the next wall/sandbag or do you take the shot?
If you decide to move -> how will you cover your merc? Will he run into an interrupt?

If you implement CTH to take all those considerations away because you will solely decide upon your CTH.

no cth = good decision.
cth toggle -> better decision!

I couldn't agree more, it felt right in JA2, I'm sure it will feel right in JA3. At the end of the day these developers are professionals, I trust the decision.

[chr_isso]

5 hours ago, Solaris_Wave said:

Do you mean that you would like to see an option to toggle CtH visibility?

To anybody that wants to see that option, if it was there, why not just have it switched on all the time? The temptation would be there because you might possibly think, "Well, everybody else has probably got it switched on, I might as well do it too. Why make it harder for myself if everyone else is making it easier?"

Now that is just a theory, not a complaint towards anyone in favour of a toggle. I know lots of people like to challenge themselves by increasing game difficulty.

Nah man, the toggle is for the X-Com Players who need it.

I would switch it off and never touch it, as long as the feel of Merc+Weapon is right.

3 hours ago, Godzilla said:

How are you supposed to know that??

Im sorry but theres very big margin of error in knowing how accurate that shot is going to be. And theres no good way to tell. Unless you plan to do the math manually based on distance and know the formula and perks and weapon mods, and change that math anytime a merc levels up or changes their gear, theres not going to be an at all reliable or accurate way to know.

 

Maybe thats why they made the maps so tiny. So that you always have at least ab50% chance to hit?

Are you really kidding me? Did you ever play vanilla ja2 or only 1.13?

Man, you start in Omerta, have 3 or 4 mercs with Deagle, Colts and your AIM Merc with MP5.

After the first few enemies and then hunting the last one you got the feeling for it.

As soon as you arrive in draußen airport you knew how to position, how to move to the building in the south east, then to the fence and cut your way to the airplane.

The feel for the aiming when out of range, the hope to hit and not get hit .. that was the Ja2 feeling. 

Ofc you can save and reload and reload and reload until you get it right.

Or you could just play along with all the faults and get hit a few times.

What does it matter? CtH is nice if you want a playthrough without getting hit. But that will deny you the adrenaline rush if you need to save a merc with a smoke and get your medic close to him and miss him for the next few sectors.

They got much more valuable if you play without reload.. and CTH.

[Godzilla]

8 hours ago, chr_isso said:

Nah man, the toggle is for the X-Com Players who need it.

I would switch it off and never touch it, as long as the feel of Merc+Weapon is right.

Are you really kidding me? Did you ever play vanilla ja2 or only 1.13?

I played vanilla when I was 14 are YOU kidding me

Plus vanilla was such a different and simplified experience compared to 1.13 that its not even worth mentioning

8 hours ago, chr_isso said:

Nah man, the toggle is for the X-Com Players who need it.

I would switch it off and never touch it, as long as the feel of Merc+Weapon is right.

Are you really kidding me? Did you ever play vanilla ja2 or only 1.13?

Man, you start in Omerta, have 3 or 4 mercs with Deagle, Colts and your AIM Merc with MP5.

After the first few enemies and then hunting the last one you got the feeling for it.

As soon as you arrive in draußen airport you knew how to position, how to move to the building in the south east, then to the fence and cut your way to the airplane.

The feel for the aiming when out of range, the hope to hit and not get hit .. that was the Ja2 feeling. 

Ofc you can save and reload and reload and reload until you get it right.

Or you could just play along with all the faults and get hit a few times.

What does it matter? CtH is nice if you want a playthrough without getting hit. But that will deny you the adrenaline rush if you need to save a merc with a smoke and get your medic close to him and miss him for the next few sectors.

They got much more valuable if you play without reload.. and CTH.

Why would anybody want to not minimize getting hit and not maximize the hits you do.

Im sorry but some of you pro CTH people sounding straight delusional atm.

[chr_isso]

5 hours ago, Godzilla said:

I played vanilla when I was 14 are YOU kidding me

Plus vanilla was such a different and simplified experience compared to 1.13 that its not even worth mentioning

Why would anybody want to not minimize getting hit and not maximize the hits you do.

Im sorry but some of you pro CTH people sounding straight delusional atm.

1.13 was overly complicated and didn't bring a lot of joy to a lot of players.
JA2 Community is split between pro 1.13 and pro staciatella...

Why i would want to reduce CTH? Maybe for a more puristic experience? As i told you, you seem to be a save/load player who doesn't like your mercs getting hit.
I prefer the other approach: gid gud, play smart and live with consequences of bad decisions, aka positioning, luring and bad cover.
I don't need CtH if I get the hang of merc and weapon like you do in JA2. Simple as that.

[Godzilla]

If theres one thing the community isnt split on its that 1.13 is accepted universally as an improvement and expansion on vanilla.

No idea where you're getting this from. Go to the bear pit, ask how much divide there is between 1.13 enjoyers and not 😆

[WILDFIRE]

It is fairly simple. It is like watching an action movie where the enemies shoot thousands of bullets at the hero and he barely got hit. It is boring and unrealistic.

 

The tension and unpredictability without the visible CTH creates the impression that you are in a real shootout. Your decisions no matter how good they are can lead into total chaos. I like that, because it does not feel restricted. The result of every combat can be totally different.

 

Sure maybe some people want more control and informations and I can understand that but JA3 is true to the Jagged Alliance roots so this decision is the right way.

[Godzilla]

18 hours ago, WILDFIRE said:

It is fairly simple. It is like watching an action movie where the enemies shoot thousands of bullets at the hero and he barely got hit. It is boring and unrealistic.

 

The tension and unpredictability without the visible CTH creates the impression that you are in a real shootout. Your decisions no matter how good they are can lead into total chaos. I like that, because it does not feel restricted. The result of every combat can be totally different.

 

Sure maybe some people want more control and informations and I can understand that but JA3 is true to the Jagged Alliance roots so this decision is the right way.

Oh yeah, such tension because you got no idea whats going on 10/10 👍

[DougS2K]

2 hours ago, Godzilla said:

Oh yeah, such tension because you got no idea whats going on 10/10 👍

You calling people stupid? Because you would have to be if you couldn't figure out what was going on with all the other info available other than CtH.

[WILDFIRE]

@Godzilla: The current combat system gives you the vague accuracy informations in the crosshair menu with a plus or minus for various aspects like merc stats, environment or the body part you aim at.

 

Aside from that the mercs tell you directly if they are sure if they hit the target or not and a range bar helps you to know if you can reach your target.

 

All this informations are more vague but are enough if you know your mercs, the equipment and the positioning of your squad.

 

But if you do not like the current combat system I guess JA3 is then not the right game for you.

[Godzilla]

8 hours ago, DougS2K said:

You calling people stupid? Because you would have to be if you couldn't figure out what was going on with all the other info available other than CtH.

No, I mean possibly if they support bad (or weird and unjustified) design decisions.

Unless you memorize all ranges and constantly calculate CTH by hand your cth "by feel" will be off by anywhere from 20% to 40% in each direction which may as well make everything complete guesswork. (Or in reality the devs will just make all maps super small and all engagements localized which means youll already start off 2 feet away from the enemy).

 

Edited May 11, 2023 by Godzilla

[Godzilla]

8 hours ago, WILDFIRE said:

@Godzilla: The current combat system gives you the vague accuracy informations in the crosshair menu with a plus or minus for various aspects like merc stats, environment or the body part you aim at.

 

Aside from that the mercs tell you directly if they are sure if they hit the target or not and a range bar helps you to know if you can reach your target.

 

All this informations are more vague but are enough if you know your mercs, the equipment and the positioning of your squad.

 

But if you do not like the current combat system I guess JA3 is then not the right game for you.

Not really, theres a huge difference between a 40% shot and a 70% or 80% shot, and this information will not be communicated.

As far as I know the only form of cth is occassional vague replies from the mercs if the chances are close to zero. And any manual calculations you will do based on distance and cth formula you will not even know or be aware of.

Removing cth turns jagged alliance into a completely different game, almost a different genre. It casualizes it and simplifies it HEAVILY, and turns it all into wishful thinking "hope it wont miss" simulator. And the way it plays will now be heavily luck based and will require you to always bring a full squad so even if your very well equipped and levelled merc misses then the back up merc wont, Wheres the minmaxing? Where are the ninja mercs that after 20 hours levelling have 100% cth, at least at a certain range with a given weapon (account for balancing). There are many problems here.

Edited May 11, 2023 by Godzilla

[Kordanor]

You can argue the other way around and say that CTH is casualizing it, as you don't need to think about the environment that much, you get the potential result handed on a silver platter. Maybe similar as driving a racing game and having the "optimal line" displayed about where you need to drive in order to take the turn perfectly.

I just started playing JA1 again and now I got to agree even more to not show CTH. In my firefights with .38 guns I almost need 1 "magazine" on each character to just kill one enemy. It would just feel totally odd, and unsatisfying if the game showed me with each shot "25%" which - in other games - usually means "don't dare to take the shot". But in these battles I am fighting, it's the best option I get.

 

[chr_isso]

4 hours ago, Godzilla said:

Not really, theres a huge difference between a 40% shot and a 70% or 80% shot, and this information will not be communicated.

As far as I know the only form of cth is occassional vague replies from the mercs if the chances are close to zero. And any manual calculations you will do based on distance and cth formula you will not even know or be aware of.

Removing cth turns jagged alliance into a completely different game, almost a different genre. It casualizes it and simplifies it HEAVILY, and turns it all into wishful thinking "hope it wont miss" simulator. And the way it plays will now be heavily luck based and will require you to always bring a full squad so even if your very well equipped and levelled merc misses then the back up merc wont, Wheres the minmaxing? Where are the ninja mercs that after 20 hours levelling have 100% cth, at least at a certain range with a given weapon (account for balancing). There are many problems here.

this is the biggest bs you wrote so far.
congratulations on that.

It's so impressive that I'll put you on my ignorelist now.

 

 

On 5/10/2023 at 1:42 AM, WILDFIRE said:

It is fairly simple. It is like watching an action movie where the enemies shoot thousands of bullets at the hero and he barely got hit. It is boring and unrealistic.

 

The tension and unpredictability without the visible CTH creates the impression that you are in a real shootout. Your decisions no matter how good they are can lead into total chaos. I like that, because it does not feel restricted. The result of every combat can be totally different.

 

Sure maybe some people want more control and informations and I can understand that but JA3 is true to the Jagged Alliance roots so this decision is the right way.

Exactly! The lack of information is what truly made JA2 great - estimating if it's smart to run to the next treeline, to move to that rock.. will I get hit? will I be able to hit myself?
Maybe i should not crouch but prone and move forward.
Is the grass high enough?

All that added to immersion - if you can just indicate everything, there is absolutely no challenge left.

[WILDFIRE]

@Godzilla: You think you know better than many JA2 veterans here including me, the devs, streamers and the creator of Jagged Alliance himself. You tell us that we do not know what we are talking about while you get nearly zero support. 

 

Jagged Alliance 1/2 worked without CTH and the streamers who played the Beta of JA3 rarely lost soldiers. The combat system worked maybe not perfectly (it is a Beta) but it worked and I never heard feedback that the missing CTH destroys the game.

 

Think about yourself and learn to respect the opinion of others. I can understand your fears regarding the combat system. But I am not here to tell you that you are clueless. I want a combat system that does not feel casual and restricted. If you want something else I can respect that but the game is nearly finished now and CTH is not a part of it.

[Godzilla]

12 hours ago, WILDFIRE said:

@Godzilla: You think you know better than many JA2 veterans here including me, the devs, streamers and the creator of Jagged Alliance himself. You tell us that we do not know what we are talking about while you get nearly zero support. 

 

Jagged Alliance 1/2 worked without CTH and the streamers who played the Beta of JA3 rarely lost soldiers. The combat system worked maybe not perfectly (it is a Beta) but it worked and I never heard feedback that the missing CTH destroys the game.

Yes. Firstly Im just as much of a vet as much as you are, if not more. Secondly sometimes even heroes make mistakes, or make a decision that seems correct but ends up being wrong. JA2 and ian currie did a lot of things right but not everything. Its very important to remember that. Treating any product as a collection of perfect decisions would be extremely inaccurate in almost all cases.

Most great projects end up doing a few things really right and those few core correct decisions outshine the mishaps or misses that hsppen elsewhere in the product.

Edited May 11, 2023 by Godzilla

[Godzilla]

14 hours ago, chr_isso said:

this is the biggest bs you wrote so far.
congratulations on that.

It's so impressive that I'll put you on my ignorelist now.
 

Oh no, how will I live without the support of a less than smart person.

The same person who btw thinks a simplified inventory is the biggest problem in JA3 (probably because he doesnt see any other points of difference between JA3 and JA2 other than the inventory, thats his level of perception and cognition)

This is the problem folks.

You only see the simplified inventory and think the rest is equivalent.

I see how there are now tons of xcom like actions like hunker down shield action and the talent abilities and some kind of suppression fire type action. I see CTH missing I see grit and free move AP being introduced.

Thats why its not an equal debate: some of us can see the nuanced and less than obvious changes the devs made, and others are still stuck at the "what, we no longer have pockets??" type level.

Edited May 11, 2023 by Godzilla

[WILDFIRE]

@Godzilla: I played JA2 since day one and know the Bears Pit Forum and Fanbase since around 2002. I followed every project after JA2 and was always in contact with the specific devs to give feedback and to help as best I could. So you can say I am extremely dedicated.

 

But it is not about you and me. Here in this forum and on other platforms we talked already multiple times about the combat system/CTH months ago. And the majority liked the idea of a more chaotic combat system without CTH, because it feels more natural and realistic. Is it perfect? No! Surely it has its own flaws but the visible CTH is also not perfect.

 

We discussed the current combat system with all the advantages and disadvantages so often and now you come in and you think you know everything better. Feedback is always good but in a respectful way. I never said that everything is wrong with a visible CTH. It surely has its own advantages but it feels more like the nuXCOMs and not like the original Jagged Alliance.

 

So as I said before you can not please everyone and maybe there is no perfect solution regarding the combat system. We still have to wait to test the game by ourselves. But maybe you will like the game more than you think right now.

[Orth]

Will you fix stuped misses right into obstacle wich is just in front of merc? It's unrealistic and frustrating 

[ninjalex]

On 5/11/2023 at 6:44 AM, Godzilla said:

Not really, theres a huge difference between a 40% shot and a 70% or 80% shot, and this information will not be communicated.

As far as I know the only form of cth is occassional vague replies from the mercs if the chances are close to zero. And any manual calculations you will do based on distance and cth formula you will not even know or be aware of.

Removing cth turns jagged alliance into a completely different game, almost a different genre. It casualizes it and simplifies it HEAVILY, and turns it all into wishful thinking "hope it wont miss" simulator. And the way it plays will now be heavily luck based and will require you to always bring a full squad so even if your very well equipped and levelled merc misses then the back up merc wont, Wheres the minmaxing? Where are the ninja mercs that after 20 hours levelling have 100% cth, at least at a certain range with a given weapon (account for balancing). There are many problems here.

Saying that removing a feature that wasn't featured in the game we pretty much define as the hallmark of the genre makes it...a different game and different genre...is a weird approach.

 

I think the devs explained it really well in the devdiary video. CTH results in players acting with full information and always takes optimal shots, so the enemies have to be buffed and changed AI to compensate for it. Which makes the gameplay a lot less chaotic guerrilla warfare with fog of war and more of a number crunch game where all actions are to bump that CTH.

 

I personally prefer not having 100% information and acting on feel and experience. That was what JA2 was all about. Getting to know your mercs, their weapons and how likely it would be to hit shots. You had to LEARN those things, not just press a button and see 90% chance to hit.

 

CTH IS simplification. Because you don't need to learn and experience. The game just straight up tells you everything you need to know.

Edited May 19, 2023 by ninjalex

[DougS2K]

On 5/11/2023 at 1:44 AM, Godzilla said:

Not really, theres a huge difference between a 40% shot and a 70% or 80% shot, and this information will not be communicated.

As far as I know the only form of cth is occassional vague replies from the mercs if the chances are close to zero. And any manual calculations you will do based on distance and cth formula you will not even know or be aware of.

Removing cth turns jagged alliance into a completely different game, almost a different genre. It casualizes it and simplifies it HEAVILY, and turns it all into wishful thinking "hope it wont miss" simulator. And the way it plays will now be heavily luck based and will require you to always bring a full squad so even if your very well equipped and levelled merc misses then the back up merc wont, Wheres the minmaxing? Where are the ninja mercs that after 20 hours levelling have 100% cth, at least at a certain range with a given weapon (account for balancing). There are many problems here.

OMG your still going on about this??? Give it up already man, there will be no CtH and not having CtH stays true to the franchise. You don't know what your talking about when you say "Removing cth turns jagged alliance into a completely different game, almost a different genre.". JA1 and JA2 never had CtH so please stop claiming they did. If you need a game to coddle your shooting decisions than this might not be the franchise for you. 

[GODSPEED]

On 5/3/2023 at 5:28 AM, Grim said:

This is not confusing to me. You missed the body part you aimed, but the bullet trajectory went through another..
It's more confusing hitting ONLY the body part you aimed.

My sentiment is, most people would prefer that and you may have to reconsider, from what I've read from the community.

I'm late to this DevDiary, but THAT ^


Very common for me in JA2 (1.13 naturally) to aim a 10 round burst at the legs (with a merc without auto weapons) from a high recoil smg/ar... and actually get a bullet or two on the torso (rarely, and very lucky, a headshot too). Anyways, bullets often hit another body part and always enjoyed seeing the "stat" loss from such randomness.

I would also prefer missed bullets be able to hit another body part. If a miss can hit another enemy (or even merc), they should be able to hit another body part.