Instead of complaining lets find a solution

[Godzilla]

Developers have landed themselves in a bit of a hot spot when it comes to chance to hit.

So what do we do and where do we go from here?

Because its going to be hard for them to rebalance JA all the way back to pre CTH change.

but at the same time if they dont they're facing a total uprising from their community where their base audience is deeply upset (and thisis a niche title, if you dont make the core demographic happy who do you make happy and who is supposed to purchase the game?)

So I have a simple way out of the situation.

lets simply and calmly analyze any factors that lead to "pixelhunting" as the developers put it. and maybethink about if pixel hunting is a bad idea in the first place.

And I'm sure we'll be able to find a solution to the "pixel-hunting" situation that doesnt include getting rid of CTH which has proven contentious, perhaps more contentious than even developers have forseen.

Edited May 6, 2023 by Godzilla

[Godzilla]

Because a part of me is a bit worried that the developers are in a tough position, they have no good option, either they tell the publishers that "yes hey we totally wasted everybodys time and money", or they go with the contentious design choice, maybe mistake depending who you ask, but then their userbase hates them. And maybe they dont even sell any copies because of it. But that shouldnt be a reason to not see reality or understand when a mistake is a mistake. A mistake is a mistake even if you spent an extra 5 months to make it. Or wasted 5 months to make it. Sunk cost fallacy.

I worry that the developers may have gotten their egos involved and are unable to admit when a mistake is a mistake because it might make them look bad, which I understand. The point of a mistake is not to make one in the first place rather than trying to think of a way to get out of it or fix a very bad situation. But if they dont admit it then it might be even worse come release time. And fundamentally its not about 5 or 10 months wasted development. Its about producing the best strategy possible with the best features possible.

 

Edited May 6, 2023 by Godzilla

[Taurean]

It's very simple.

Easy/medium difficulty or beginner mode: Show percentages and factors.. terrain, scope, distance etc. Learning mode.

Hard/insane difficulty or expert mode: Don't show percentages. One should know the game's mechanics.

[DougS2K]

I don't think they're in a hot spot at all. The majority of people don't want chance to hit from what I've seen on forums and during their livestreams. The few that do want it seem to be people that aren't even fans of the series like myself and others. No offence but that's just what I've seen after weeks of this topic being discussed.

Frankly, I don't even know why people are discussing it as the devs addressed this topic once again in their latest stream and stated there will be no chance to hit percentage shown. They took it out of the game months ago and have no intention on reimplementing it. Best bet is for people that do want this feature, is to mod it in after release. 

This is the right decision on their part and stays true to the franchise.

Edited May 6, 2023 by DougS2K

[Godzilla]

3 minutes ago, Taurean said:

It's very simple.

Easy/medium difficulty or beginner mode: Show percentages and factors.. terrain, scope, distance etc. Learning mode.

Hard/insane difficulty or expert mode: Don't show percentages. One should know the game's mechanics.

I try to be reasonable, and the apologists come in.

Punishing people with a lower difficulty for being smart enough to understand that showing hit chance is a core feature of the genre is a mistake.

[Stuurminator]

6 minutes ago, Taurean said:

It's very simple.

Easy/medium difficulty or beginner mode: Show percentages and factors.. terrain, scope, distance etc. Learning mode.

Hard/insane difficulty or expert mode: Don't show percentages. One should know the game's mechanics.

They're not hiding the CtH to make the game more challenging. They're doing it to make the gameplay more fun.

[Elder III]

I am more than happy with it not being there. We have indicators in game as to what is a good shot or a risky shot. Between doing some math myself (weapon type, range, marksmanship, stance, cover, etc.) and things the mercs say, I think it's 100% fine as is.

[DougS2K]

1 minute ago, Godzilla said:

I try to be reasonable, and the apologists come in.

Punishing people with a lower difficulty for being smart enough to understand that showing hit chance is a core feature of the genre is a mistake.

It's not a core feature of Jagged Alliance though.

[Godzilla]

6 minutes ago, DougS2K said:

I don't think they're in a hot spot at all. The majority of people don't want chance to hit from what I've seen on forums and during their livestreams. The few that do want it seem to be people that aren't even fans of the series like myself and others. No offence but that's just what I've seen after weeks of this topic being discussed.

Frankly, I don't even know why people are discussing it as the devs addressed this topic once again in their latest stream and stated there will be no chance to hit percentage shown. They took it out of the game months ago and have no intention on reimplementing it. Best bet is for people that do want this feature, is to mod it in after release. 

This is the right decision on their part and stays true to the franchise.

Almost every other message here for the last 4 weeks was about chance to hit.

Go look at the steam forum.

Theres a lot of sycophants on this forum who want JA to do well, even delusionally so. I personally am over trying to debate if chance to hit is valid or not.

If you or the devs want JA to do well, you will follow my advice. Im tired of talking to people who cant see the facts right in front of them because theyre dug in, their egos are on the line, andtheyre not going to admit that this was a mistake until its been 5 years in the future.

 

Some of us arent 12.

Do you remember Star Wars episode I?

Do you remember how delusional the fanbois were? And how they justified the movie long into the future, even as they themselves hated it?
This is that moment. You admit that changes have to be made and these are the changes. Or you dig your head in the sand and pretend everything's fine until its not.

[Godzilla]

11 minutes ago, DougS2K said:

It's not a core feature of Jagged Alliance though.

Ask JA2 1.13.

As soon as the userbase and modders got their hands on JA thisis the first thing they've implemented.

Nobody complains about pixel hunting in JA2 1.13. They talk about how amazing it is.

Edited May 6, 2023 by Godzilla

[Quardak]

And here we Go again… Nothing will change Even With 1000 Posts. Even the Hater will buy the Game to hate it even more. If CtH was my biggest Problem in live i would be happy.

Live goes on even without CtH.

 

[DougS2K]

8 minutes ago, Godzilla said:

Almost every other message here for the last 4 weeks was about chance to hit.

Go look at the steam forum.

This topic has been discussed for months. It's only been the last few weeks with the people that haven't been following the game for that long, that these comments have increased.

8 minutes ago, Godzilla said:

Theres a lot of sycophants on this forum who want JA to do well, even delusionally so. I personally am over trying to debate if chance to hit is valid or not.

If you or the devs want JA to do well, you will follow my advice. Im tired of talking to people who cant see the facts right in front of them because theyre dug in, their egos are on the line, andtheyre not going to admit that this was a mistake until its been 5 years in the future.

LOL Ok dude.

8 minutes ago, Godzilla said:

 

Some of us arent 12.

Do you remember Star Wars episode I?

Do you remember how delusional the fanbois were? And how they justified the movie long into the future, even as they themselves hated it?
This is that moment. You admit that changes have to be made and these are the changes. Or you dig your head in the sand and pretend everything's fine until its not.

I was never a Star Wars fan so no.

I'm not pretending everything is fine. Their are issues with the game but CTH is not one of them.

[DougS2K]

10 minutes ago, Godzilla said:

Ask JA2 1.13.

As soon as the userbase and modders got their hands on JA thisis the first thing they've implemented.

Nobody complains about pixel hunting in JA2 1.13. They talk about how amazing it is.

I played JA2 1.13 without chance to hit and so did many others.

[Godzilla]

4 minutes ago, Quardak said:

And here we Go again… Nothing will change Even With 1000 Posts. Even the Hater will buy the Game to hate it even more. If CtH was my biggest Problem in live i would be happy.

Live goes on even without CtH.

 

[Godzilla]

Just now, DougS2K said:

I played JA2 1.13 without chance to hit and so did many others.

Doubt it.

[DougS2K]

1 minute ago, Godzilla said:

Doubt it.

Want me to load up my current playthrough and take a screenshot? You really think I'd lie about something so stupid?

[DougS2K]

[Godzilla]

2 minutes ago, DougS2K said:

Cool story. Theres definitely no way you couldve edited that in a few seconds earlier.

Edited May 6, 2023 by Godzilla

[DougS2K]

1 minute ago, Godzilla said:

Cool story. Theres definitely no way you couldve edited that in a few seconds earlier.

Well believe what you will, I really don't care. I'm not pathetic enough to lie about it though. Think about this for one second. Why would I be for not showing CTH, stating I think it's the right decision, claiming I don't use it in 1.13, and then actually use it in 1.13??? That makes no sense whatsoever.  

[Solaris_Wave]

Is hiding the chance to hit so bad? I think people are making more out of it than necessary. Sure, you need some kind of indicator to make a shot in the first place, but I believe that is already there in both visual, or at least audible sense. Why do people feel that they need to see a precise percentage before making a decision? Unless you were a robot or had a fully integrated targeted system, who would see a percentage anyway?

Integrated combat software: [You have a 54% chance of hitting your target.]

Soldier: "Damn, better not try and take that shot."

Integrated combat software: [You now have a 62% chance of hitting your target.]

Soldier: "I'm going to shoot!"

[Godzilla]

7 minutes ago, DougS2K said:

Well believe what you will, I really don't care. I'm not pathetic enough to lie about it though. Think about this for one second. Why would I be for not showing CTH, stating I think it's the right decision, claiming I don't use it in 1.13, and then actually use it in 1.13??? That makes no sense whatsoever.  

For the same reason the developers wont admit its a mistake even as they face a full scale uprising on the forums. Their ego is dug in and they want it to succeed.

[Godzilla]

1 minute ago, Solaris_Wave said:

Is hiding the chance to hit so bad? I think people are making more out of it than necessary. Sure, you need some kind of indicator to make a shot in the first place, but I believe that is already there in both visual, or at least audible sense. Why do people feel that they need to see a precise percentage before making a decision? Unless you were a robot or had a fully integrated targeted system, who would see a percentage anyway?

Integrated combat software: [You have a 54% chance of hitting your target.]

Soldier: "Damn, better not try and take that shot."

Integrated combat software: [You now have a 62% chance of hitting your target.]

Soldier: "I'm going to shoot!"

Yes. Look at the steam forums.

There are more CTH posts than any other topic.

There are also a lot of posts about it here.

You can actually guess the likelihood of your shot in reslity becausethe gun sways and is not perfectly on target.

Its entirely realistic, whats your next excuse that has nothing to do with it being a core feature of the genre and a core feature for good reason.

[DougS2K]

8 minutes ago, Godzilla said:

For the same reason the developers wont admit its a mistake even as they face a full scale uprising on the forums. Their ego is dug in and they want it to succeed.

No offence, but that's just stupid. Plus, there is not a "full scale uprising on the forums". There are a handful of people crying about it repeatedly. Ever hear of the term vocal minority? That's what we have here. You've been here for a day and that's all your talking about it seems. I see one topic on the steam forums about CTH so not sure why you keep going on about steam forums. Plus, half of that topic support the devs decision with no CTH.

Edited May 6, 2023 by DougS2K

[Home]

Well, I think this could be a much more productive discussion if we all get along. Some of you disagree with the decision to remove the CTH, some think its a good one. Lets move on and continue this discussion in a civil manner.

[Godzilla]

15 minutes ago, DougS2K said:

Well believe what you will, I really don't care. I'm not pathetic enough to lie about it though. Think about this for one second. Why would I be for not showing CTH, stating I think it's the right decision, claiming I don't use it in 1.13, and then actually use it in 1.13??? That makes no sense whatsoever.  

Dont get me wrong. Maybe you werent lying. (And maybe you just had it on to test what Ian Currie etc were talking about, and maybe the NCTH variable is actually a reference to that ugly new UI cth which I also have turned off, I dont have JA installed to check, excuse me), but I think its safe to say that even if you're the outlier, most people are not.