Is this game far too easy?

[Tzg]

6 minutes ago, Hendrix said:

Having played JA2 since late 1999, I'm afraid I have to disappoint you.

Then you have problems with memory. 

 

10 minutes ago, Solaris_Wave said:

I think you might be surprised to find that most of us in these forums have played at least one Jagged Alliance game. We have a pretty good idea of what the games are about. However, it doesn't mean they cannot be changed or improved upon, whatever those areas might be.

It is surprising as seems like yous are projecting some sort of wet dreams to JA3 

[Solaris_Wave]

At least two people have complained about the enemy AI being predictable, which limits the enjoyment of the game. If you can keep applying the same tactics over and over, and are only changing them just to try something different, instead of actually needing to, then there is a flaw that needs to be addressed.

I said that sniper rifles, or to be more specific, single aimed shots, are the dominant way to play the game. If all you need is to keep doing that to progress in the game, at what point does it stop being fun and just be a case of going through the motions until you finish it?

[Solaris_Wave]

1 minute ago, Tzg said:

Then you have problems with memory. 

 

It is surprising as seems like yous are projecting some sort of wet dreams to JA3 

Now you are just being rude to everyone for the sake of it.

[Tzg]

4 minutes ago, Solaris_Wave said:

At least two people have complained about the enemy AI being predictable, which limits the enjoyment of the game. If you can keep applying the same tactics over and over, and are only changing them just to try something different, instead of actually needing to, then there is a flaw that needs to be addressed.

I said that sniper rifles, or to be more specific, single aimed shots, are the dominant way to play the game. If all you need is to keep doing that to progress in the game, at what point does it stop being fun and just be a case of going through the motions until you finish it?

I don’t know. I played JA2 since release day till week ago and it never bored me even though it was exactly like that. 

[Hendrix]

Well @Tzg if you are happy sitting in your boy room since '99, clicking on heads... good for you mate!

[Solaris_Wave]

1 minute ago, Tzg said:

I don’t know. I played JA2 since release day till week ago and it never bored me even though it was exactly like that. 

That is fair enough. The thing is, JA2 came out many years ago and as good as that game is, it had its flaws. Not only that but computing power has gained in leaps and bounds since then. Surely, there is capacity to create a smarter and more variable AI that dynamically reacts to your tactics and deployment?

Saying that everyone else, other than you doesn’t understand what makes a Jagged Alliance game is silly. Suggesting that, somehow, for it to be a Jagged Alliance game, that it has to have rigid AI that is no better than the prequels, however old they all are, is equally silly. Being rushed by enemy AI that happily gets picked off by sniper rifles isn't what makes a true Jagged Alliance game. That was just an aspect of the possible AI at the time those games (particularly JA2) were made.

[Tzg]

Just now, Hendrix said:

Well @Tzg if you are happy sitting in your boy room since '99, clicking on heads... good for you mate!

Not really it’s more the fact it is just a game. And I couldn’t really care less if it meets all the wet fantasies in my head. Will play as is - and then I won’t - or I will again. And simply doesn’t matter if it is deeply tactical or if it’s just like ja2. It is just a game. I like it but why would I giv a f? 

[mauricemoss]

28 minutes ago, Tzg said:

I am an adult I played tonnes of games I also have a bit of brain left…so wait for it … I can play it anyway I want. Sometimes I snipe (have only 2 in the team) sometimes I set MG, use rpg’s and grandes and shotguns and whatever I want. 🤷🏻 I am not forced to do anything. I am happy with it. 
Exactly as it was in JA2. Exactly. 

I’m happy for you, that you like this game so much. I also like it, but I still have my fair share of problems with it. This has nothing to do with being an adult or not. Or the size of one’s remaining brain. I tend to think, that my brain behaves quite well and is overall in very good shape. I also have a lot (decades) of experience playing games. And that’s exactly the reason for me to believe, that the designers of this game did a fairly bad job at balancing it. Leaving the sniper stealth meta as a viable option to play most parts of this game is just insane. In my opinion designers should give you balanced choices and different play styles should feel, to some amount, equally viable. But they did not for me.

Yes, I can force myself to play differently. But that’s just not the way I want to play. Maybe this comes down to personal preferences. I would be happier, if sometimes the game forced me to not use snipers :).

[Tzg]

Just now, mauricemoss said:

I’m happy for you, that you like this game so much. I also like it, but I still have my fair share of problems with it. This has nothing to do with being an adult or not. Or the size of one’s remaining brain. I tend to think, that my brain behaves quite well and is overall in very good shape. I also have a lot (decades) of experience playing games. And that’s exactly the reason for me to believe, that the designers of this game did a fairly bad job at balancing it. Leaving the sniper stealth meta as a viable option to play most parts of this game is just insane. In my opinion designers should give you balanced choices and different play styles should feel, to some amount, equally viable. But they did not for me.

Yes, I can force myself to play differently. But that’s just not the way I want to play. Maybe this comes down to personal preferences. I would be happier, if sometimes the game forced me to not use snipers :).

You probably are right. I just don’t care that much. I love to play a game (whatever that game is - be it JA 3 or Fallout 2 or Diablo 4 or Darkest Dungeon) but in the same time I don’t really care enough to get deeply upset about the game itself. If I don’t like it I don’t if I do - I simply do. 

[Tzg]

4 minutes ago, Solaris_Wave said:

That is fair enough. The thing is, JA2 came out many years ago and as good as that game is, it had its flaws. Not only that but computing power has gained in leaps and bounds since then. Surely, there is capacity to create a smarter and more variable AI that dynamically reacts to your tactics and deployment?

Saying that everyone else, other than you doesn’t understand what makes a Jagged Alliance game is silly. Suggesting that, somehow, for it to be a Jagged Alliance game, that it has to have rigid AI that is no better than the prequels, however old they all are, is equally silly. Being rushed by enemy AI that happily gets picked off by sniper rifles isn't what makes a true Jagged Alliance game. That was just an aspect of the possible AI at the time those games (particularly JA2) were made.

You are right it doesn’t have to be and shouldn’t be like old games. But it is. I like it. I don’t have a time to get upset about it. It is what it is. I am happy this game exists - it’s not perfect perhaps? So effing what? Nobody is. 

[mauricemoss]

Just now, Tzg said:

You probably are right. I just don’t care that much. I love to play a game (whatever that game is - be it JA 3 or Fallout 2 or Diablo 4 or Darkest Dungeon) but in the same time I don’t really care enough to get deeply upset about the game itself. If I don’t like it I don’t if I do - I simply do. 

I find it very interesting that you wrote 88 messages in a forum of a game you just don’t care that much about :).

I don’t get the feeling, that people in here are deeply upset. Maybe with a few exceptions. At least I am not. I just wondered, if others had the same experience and therefore I started this thread. And maybe some devs will read about opinions in here and maybe they will change something to the better in the future.

[Tzg]

2 minutes ago, mauricemoss said:

I find it very interesting that you wrote 88 messages in a forum of a game you just don’t care that much about :).

I don’t get the feeling, that people in here are deeply upset. Maybe with a few exceptions. At least I am not. I just wondered, if others had the same experience and therefore I started this thread. And maybe some devs will read about opinions in here and maybe they will change something to the better in the future.

Oh I care in sense I am happy it was released. But I don’t care in the sense of getting to ‘upset’ or maybe ‘worked out’ about it many flaws. Life is too short. 

[Ivan Dolvich]

So, if you don't care that much, why do you care with other people opinions about a game, what they dislike and so on... Give them a break and proceed with not caring about it.

[Solaris_Wave]

I found that in JA2, that single, aimed head shots were the best way to play. Full auto fire was rarely needed and I don't think my mercs ever run out of ammo because of that.

Sniper rifles were clearly the best damage output for single, aimed head shots.

It wasn't realistic and I wished for combat where all weapon types remained relevant and automatic weapons would have their uses, just like in reality.

One of my suggestions for JA3, during its development, was to have more than one Marksmanship skill. Each weapon type would have a separate skill. That way, not every merc could turn into a long range sniper, just because they were accurate with other weapon types. This would limit the amount of snipers available to you.

That, along with my proposal to eliminate body part aiming and have it so you can only specify a body part at close ranges or via a telescopic sight if the target is not running and the shooter is skilled enough, would encourage more unpredictable combat. It would encourage automatic fire as well. Obviously, this wouldn't have the full auto damage reduction that Haemimont went for (which is 'game balancing' instead of realistic balancing).

However, according to @Tzg, these suggestions cannot be made because that apparently isn't what a Jagged Alliance game is about. As much as I love JA2, I wanted to see improvements to its combat realism (and that does not mean turning it into a military simulator). There was still room for change while keeping it a JA game, which to me means having character-based soldiers with RPG qualities, fighting in a modern day setting with weapons based on real life, in a progressive campaign and in the order you see fit.

[Tzg]

7 minutes ago, Ivan Dolvich said:

So, if you don't care that much, why do you care with other people opinions about a game, what they dislike and so on... Give them a break and proceed with not caring about it.

But that’s what forum is for.isn’t it? Would be boring not to engage. 

[Tzg]

1 minute ago, Solaris_Wave said:

I found that in JA2, that single, aimed head shots were the best way to play. Full auto fire was rarely needed and I don't think my mercs ever run out of ammo because of that.

Sniper rifles were clearly the best damage output for single, aimed head shots.

It wasn't realistic and I wished for combat where all weapon types remained relevant and automatic weapons would have their uses, just like in reality.

One of my suggestions for JA3, during its development, was to have more than one Marksmanship skill. Each weapon type would have a separate skill. That way, not every merc could turn into a long range sniper, just because they were accurate with other weapon types. This would limit the amount of snipers available to you.

That, along with my proposal to eliminate body part aiming and have it so you can only specify a body part at close ranges or via a telescopic sight if the target is not running and the shooter is skilled enough, would encourage more unpredictable combat. It would encourage automatic fire as well. Obviously, this wouldn't have the full auto damage reduction that Haemimont went for (which is 'game balancing' instead of realistic balancing).

However, according to @Tzg, these suggestions cannot be made because that apparently isn't what a Jagged Alliance game is about. As much as I love JA2, I wanted to see improvements to its combat realism (and that does not mean turning it into a military simulator). There was still room for change while keeping it a JA game, which to me means having character-based soldiers with RPG qualities, fighting in a modern day setting with weapons based on real life, in a progressive campaign and in the order you see fit.

Yeah but it isn’t. 🤷🏻

[GODSPEED]

20 hours ago, D13 said:

Yes, getting this balancing right is a complex issue and I'm not saying there's an easy solution.

I think some early JA 1.13 sniper rifle had to be reloaded after every shot, after which too few APs we left for a well-aimed shot. That was also an interesting mechanic because it gave one more meaningful combat decision (reload now and try lucky shot, or reload now and wait for next turn, or reload later but do sth else now, or change weapon, ...).

In JA3 we have the Cover mechanic to transfer APs to the next turn, I'm sometimes using it like that if I want to shoot twice next turn.

Yes, in the mid-late releases of 1.13, sniper rifles we're tweaked... but not debuffed!

Balanced them out way better. So it had to do with the scopes more than the gun as well.. as very high magnification scopes take much longer to acquire precise aim than something like an Eotech. So, aiming took way more AP, meaning if you we're going to take a headshot, you better as heck trust your merc to actually hit, or else it was wasting a turn for aiming and a turn for shooting.

Actually made sniper rifles feel like they really should instead of glorified assault rifles.

Also, extreme distant shots required a spotter with binoculars to spot for you past you view distance.

[GODSPEED]

One of the problems I find with JA3 is that difficulty is.... "artificially" introduced/forced through mechanics that come from a boardgame.

Battles are too small for the power of the sniper rifles. They have barely any more AP requirement to an assault rifle, yet, EASY heads rolling, minimum 1 per /turn per sniper.

I almost DON'T want to "scout" locations so that the scout towers maps are full big battles instead. Because it's just feeling a little too simple to be honest.


The things I find they tried to force to get a harder game is by having some skills and "perks" that just punish you without any logic.

The saying goes: "Don't bring a knife to a gunfight".. so why are morons with knives charging at me when I've got an HK 21, Dragunov, M1014, etc... ? Easy kills so the "AI" can position it's other units??

As an example are the enemies with knives that have a zone of "overwatch"... Wtf man!! Ok, I would get it if they reacted to melee or trying to move out. But they actually get a turn BEFORE you shoot them!? Or like the perks that make the enemy shoot you before you shoot them.

It isn't "hard", it's just forced xcom-ish tactics in a game that doesn't deserve that treatment.


 

 

Then some people tell me that JA2's Interrupt system wasn't perfect.... 🤣

 

 

I beg to differ. Compared to this, it was perfect.

[D13]

26 minutes ago, Solaris_Wave said:

One of my suggestions for JA3, during its development, was to have more than one Marksmanship skill. Each weapon type would have a separate skill. That way, not every merc could turn into a long range sniper, just because they were accurate with other weapon types. This would limit the amount of snipers available to you.

I mentioned Silent Storm yesterday as I was trying to recall how it approached sniping game mechanics. Today I looked into it again and found this excellent (and very detailed) blog post . It describes how a mix of "profession" and skills (dexterity etc.) meant any team member could in theory be a sniper, but in reality few would end up being one because of serious tradeoffs. JA3 does have sort of a profession for every merc (e.g. "marksman"), but I guess it serves only to help players pick suitable mercs (?) and does not influence performance or skilltrees, which seem to be based on skill levels alone. 

I'm going to quote a few relevant parts, but the entire article is worth reading and it describes many Silent Storm mechanics in the context of JA2.

Quote

important is the choice of military profession: Soldier, Sniper, Scout, Grenadier, Engineer and Medic.

Why? Because the choice of profession governs which skilltree we have access to for character-building purposes. Each profession has its own skilltree and there is some cross-over of skills between professions though each one is unique enough.

Dexterity followed by Intelligence are the most important stats for a sniper.

Sniping is very powerful in Silent Storm. It's also powerful in JA2 but Silent Storm's sniping mechanics are more complex and satisfying: only snipers can expend extra action points in order to hit far-off targets right between the eyes. This goes far beyond the Careful Shot available to all professions which, however, is also very useful. Snipers only require a scout to spot a target for them.

 

[LoboNocturno]

@Tzg Dont i told you, most of our opinion dont match with yours in here. You said Jagged Alliance 2 is the very same as Jagged Alliance 3 with lots of colourful silly characters, so from your perspective nothing much changed in JA3 compared to JA2 good for you. 

But a normal person who really played both games and can think a lil sane will see the differences right away, sorry but JA3 is way too cartoony imo which kills also the fun other then the weak AI. So we just hope and pray with some proper modding the game will become way more realistic (at least we will able to change the weapon stats so it will surely bring some more balancing it, change the maps and hopefully we can change also the characters as they were saying we will be able to import character models and voices). 

 

We are adults that love dark humor, more serious convos between the characters, to really feel we are in a brutal unpredictable dangerous war zone atmosphere, stronger AI that will challenge us to go a different route. Not colourful silly Fortnite atmosphere as you like.

 

I didnt post my JA2 review as yet but hey there is a balance & difficulty difference between the OJ JA2 and JA2 Wildfire as i played both recently this year (not mentioning 1.13 since i didnt played it since years) as example, the OJ JA2 is way easier then Wildfire (oh yea, you called Wildfire not a real Jagged Alliance game as well 😆)

 

 

@Solaris_Wave Dexterity plays also a important role this time in the game as you know, only having a merc with good marksmanship would not be enough to perform clean sniper headshots all the time, as there will be also enough misses which is frustrating. I really noticed that with Steroid as example who has even higher marksmanship then Buns but way lower dexterity, Buns has even a lil lower marksmanship but with high dexterity she shoots a lot better, much more accurate.

This was not the case back in JA2 as i know, dexterity was a skill more for crafting stuff ( please correct me if am wrong).

So they did there a lil good change but i know exactly what you mean, with more stats accuracy stats etc (may it would have become a lil too complicated for many).... Am still trying to figure out which bullet is more useful in JA3 as we have already a wider option in ammunition then back in JA2 which is a good thing.

 

I really like the game so far, its most definitely a good game but can, could make way way better with some more effort.

 

What disturbs me so far is the characters designs (95 of the NPCs are not suiting to JA2), how they talk (the voice acting feels too silly to me most times), the simplified inventory and the looting system overall. Not last but least the enemies tactical AI.

 

 

[Remi1987]

On 7/19/2023 at 4:55 PM, LoboNocturno said:

Didnt reached there as yet but the prison sector should be pain in the @$$ as i heard.

Got Dr Q, Kalyna and Omryn as the least of my squad heading south.
Then I recruit Scope and Reaper, with above form a new squad, and clear the prison.
Hope it's sufficient firepower and that they have the right equipment. (Since there is no shop it's still a challenge to get new recruits up to gear, in case they DON"T join the existing squads who have all the medicines and ammo)

[Remi1987]

Steroid, I find him terrible for markmanship. Too low agility and too low dex. I like his strength (storage slots) and mechanic skills. He's my top-2 squad teams mule.

[LoboNocturno]

4 hours ago, Remi1987 said:

Steroid, I find him terrible for markmanship. Too low agility and too low dex. I like his strength (storage slots) and mechanic skills. He's my top-2 squad teams mule.

True, still prefer Steroid more then Livewire in early game, though Livewire can hack more money and intel since she has her special USB but guess thats not the case, Steroid or Vicki as example hack exactly the same amount. You can still set Steroid as a back up shooter but Livewire is incredible useless for shooting as she misses even from very close range most times, though she has really high wisdom can be trained but she goes into my nerves simply (not suiting to JA at all). If you have money of course i highly recommend  Vicki (1 of the best mechanics in the game and i like her voice acting with her Jamaican accent.)

[sandman25dcsss]

13 minutes ago, LoboNocturno said:

True, still prefer Steroid more then Livewire in early game, though Livewire can hack more money and intel since she has her special USB but guess thats not the case, Steroid or Vicki as example hack exactly the same amount. You can still set Steroid as a back up shooter but Livewire is incredible useless for shooting as she misses even from very close range most times, though she has really high wisdom can be trained but she goes into my nerves simply (not suiting to JA at all). If you have money of course i highly recommend  Vicki (1 of the best mechanics in the game and i like her voice acting with her Jamaican accent.)

I spend 4 first days on training marksmanship, Livewire gets +13 and is no longer useless.