Balance patch 1.03 is out

[shadoww]

3 hours ago, mrflagio said:

Works fine for me.

Oh, I see you're in real-time mode in the screenshot.  Yeah, there are tons of bugs in real-time mode compared to turn-based.  Quick prism scope only applies when you start your turn in turn-based mode.  I'm sure it can be fixed for real-time mode, but....yeah.

i have tested it with my other merc in same area. it was working for her. only didnt work with my IMP.

[D13]

With this patch I'm also seeing the AP calculation bug described in the 2nd and 4th Steam link. Easy enough to work around IF you're aware of it (hence this message), but sad to see they didn't notice it. This is not some arcane issue, it affects pretty much every battle.

[Durandal]

The LMG/Explosives nerf was overkill.   Meanwhile Dragunovs and M24's continue to rule the game.      I hope another balance pass will be forthcoming because this is just crazy.   I bought a game called Jagged Alliance 3, not Sniper: Jagged Alliance.

 

If I hadn't already completed the game, I'd be pissed if I was anywhere near completing it right now and reliant on MG's.  I seriously don't know how anyone will be able to complete the Eagle's Nest without some creeping MG overwatch with how tightly scripted that area is.

Edited August 4, 2023 by Durandal

[Raeven]

3 hours ago, Durandal said:

The LMG/Explosives nerf was overkill.   Meanwhile Dragunovs and M24's continue to rule the game.      I hope another balance pass will be forthcoming because this is just crazy.   I bought a game called Jagged Alliance 3, not Sniper: Jagged Alliance.

 

If I hadn't already completed the game, I'd be pissed if I was anywhere near completing it right now and reliant on MG's.  I seriously don't know how anyone will be able to complete the Eagle's Nest without some creeping MG overwatch with how tightly scripted that area is.

I don't necessarily find this to be the case because sniper rifles only let you get off one shot per turn and you are often outnumbered. I agree burst ARs could be stronger but machineguns, explosives, shotguns, and melee are also proving quite useful to me in different roles. Even with ARs, you can get at least two fully aimed headshots off vs just one for a sniper rifle.

I'm even running Vicki with dual anacondas and it's working quite well, in line with the other weapons in the squad.

Overall I'm finding the weapon balance to be more varied than in JA2 which forced everyone into assault rifles.

Edited August 5, 2023 by Raeven

[Solaris_Wave]

5 hours ago, Raeven said:

I'm even running Vicki with dual anacondas and it's working quite well, in line with the other weapons in the squad.

I can just visualise that image. Vicki dual wielding .44 Magnum revolvers! That must be an invigorating experience for any shooter.

 

5 hours ago, Raeven said:

Overall I'm finding the weapon balance to be more varied than in JA2 which forced everyone into assault rifles.

Part of the problem with JA2 was the built-in weapon progression that didn't really make sense in the real world. It was more of an RPG-style progression. Handguns gave way to SMGs, which gave way to battle rifles and then finalised with assault rifles (sniper rifles and LMGs staying relevant once they appeared). The progression didn't make sense because handguns, shotguns and SMGs aren't obsolete just because assault rifles exist (although SMGs have been largely replaced  by SBRs and carbines in a military capacity). Therefore, there was little incentive to use the earlier weapon types in the game as there was no benefit in using something lighter and shorter. JA2 didn't feature specifications such as how short and manoeuvrable a weapon was. Plus, there was nothing about quickly switching to a backup weapon, like a pistol, in the event of needing to reload during a firefight. You could just happily load another magazine into your rifle, using the same amount of action points every time. The bad guys would wait.

As I have mentioned often, I still used sniper rifles a lot in JA2 as they were the most powerful conventional guns, shot for shot. Single shots allowed you to aim at the head, which was the optimal way to kill the over-armoured enemy soldiers (especially the elites). Therefore, sniper rifles were the superior weapon (for me) to kill an enemy soldier the quickest. The assault rifles could fire in automatic but due to the weakness of each bullet (or strength of body armour), automatic fire was only truly useful if you could get up close to an enemy and ensure every bullet hit them. During the end game, the C7 (Canadian M16) was effective for this, due to its high fire rate.

I will play JA3 soon but from most people's comments I am wary about the weapons because it sounds as if the gameplay will be the same experience for me as it was with JA2: single, aimed shots dominating the game (and in turn, sniper rifles being the best weapons to achieve this). I really wanted a good variation of weapon usefulness. That doesn't appear to be the case, without patching or modding.

Edited August 5, 2023 by Solaris_Wave

[shadoww]

the problem with this game you can get almost guaranteed headshots from day 3 because you can get sniper scope too easy. in ja2 it was hard to get one before clearing drassen & cambria. sniper & laser scopes, were related with game progress. but in this game you can get any of them so easy so your IMP with 50 MRK can get headshots from day 3 😄

plus the rifle (gewehr 98) you find in day 1-2 is one of the best weapon throughtout the game. better than all submachine guns % assault rifles 😄

Edited August 5, 2023 by shadoww

[wilku]

On 8/5/2023 at 1:01 AM, Durandal said:

I seriously don't know how anyone will be able to complete the Eagle's Nest without some creeping MG overwatch with how tightly scripted that area is.

You're kidding, right? That was the most un-challenging fight from all the 'storyline' ones. If you do all the stuff required to 'lower the shields' then the first few enemies can be taken out silently without even starting the combat. I don't know if there is any scripting except for one order from the Major, because no other named enemy even had a chance to do anything - 3 marksmen / snipers + 1 explosive expert clean this map without any issue (of course on First Blood, I hope higher difficulties will actually make the game more challenging).

[Frank]

On 8/5/2023 at 12:26 PM, shadoww said:

the problem with this game you can get almost guaranteed headshots from day 3 because you can get sniper scope too easy. in ja2 it was hard to get one before clearing drassen & cambria. sniper & laser scopes, were related with game progress. but in this game you can get any of them so easy so your IMP with 50 MRK can get headshots from day 3 😄

plus the rifle (gewehr 98) you find in day 1-2 is one of the best weapon throughtout the game. better than all submachine guns % assault rifles 😄

Yeah, I agree that the Gewehr 98 is way overpowered for a weapon that's available almost right from the start. I'm midgame now and I haven't found much reason to switch to other weapons. In my memory, JA2 had a more progressive (and thus, more rewarding) development of new arms coming into the game.

Edited August 7, 2023 by Frank

[mrflagio]

1 hour ago, Frank said:

Yeah, I agree that the Gewehr 98 is way overpowered for a weapon that's available almost right from the start. I'm midgame now and I haven't found much reason to switch to other weapons. In my memory, JA2 had a more progressive (and thus, more rewarding) development of new arms coming into the game.

JA2's weapon progression sucked.  Solaris_Wave above said it best: pistols gave way to SMGs which gave way to ARs, etc. with the previous type becoming obsolete.

[LXant]

1 hour ago, Frank said:

the Gewehr 98 is way overpowered

Except it's really not. It is limited to only two modifications and has a decreased range of 32 vs the 36 you get with all other sniper rifles.

It's okay-ish and better than pistols or the cheap MP40 you find in the beginning, but even a FN-FAL, which is available the moment you are in Port Cacao, outperforms the Gewehr 98 in every way.

It only feels powerful, because your early options are between a pile of crap and dirt. So it shines bright as the only 30+dmg/30+ range weapon among 15-18 dmg/range 14-20 weapons.

Edited August 7, 2023 by LXant

[MisterSlanky]

Part of the frustration for me is that as a single player (or dual player) experience, generally I'm either a) happy with things being overpowered or b) am willing to take personal limitations to control how overpowered things are and limit how powerful they are.  With sniper rifles it's easy to limit myself to one, or not put supressors on all of them - so while they could adjust the game for balance, it's not as important as what were the laser blast accuracy of MGs.  That said, I also found MGs horribly overpowered, but couldn't exactly limit myself (I already only had one operator) and there's not really something I can do to limit their power.

So I agree that something had to be done on the software, since I couldn't manage a fix on my end.  But what was done changed them from too useful to outright near unusable.  Part of that issue is the outer extent of their cone.  With regular overwatch I can control how far out I want my mercenaries to target things, which limits long-range low-chance-to-hit shots.  With the MG that's not the case, as the change fixed the laser-focused accuracy (a good thing) but in turn makes it so when somebody enters overwatch, you're firing at long range (and not hitting) wasting their limited interrupts.

I also do wish there was more "balance", making every weapon in the game an option from some angle (ammunition, durability, range, accuracy, mods, etc.) in order to avoid the JA2 trap of escalating equipment.  As for the Gewehr, it's certainly powerful when it makes its appearance, but for the time it truly shines, ammunition is rare enough to limit its breadth of use in the squad.  By the time you have sufficient ammunition, you've usually broken through to the main island and have started broadening your weapon base (which to me is fine).

[Raeven]

On 8/5/2023 at 12:59 AM, Solaris_Wave said:

I am wary about the weapons because it sounds as if the gameplay will be the same experience for me as it was with JA2: single, aimed shots dominating the game (and in turn, sniper rifles being the best weapons to achieve this).

As I said in my previous post - this is really, *really* not the case. The variability in viable weapon types is very high and you don't feel railroaded into any specific type. For example, underslung grenade launchers are *hugely* powerful and only available on ARs. Machineguns were nerfed but still incredibly powerful. I'm in late game and am doing the dual anacondas thing. I'm even using a shotgun with Barry and it's playing a key role in destroying cover and targeting multiple enemies in one shot.

You *can* outfit everyone with a sniper rifle and win that way, but it's no more overpowered than the varied approach I am using.

Edited August 7, 2023 by Raeven

[Solaris_Wave]

7 hours ago, Raeven said:

As I said in my previous post - this is really, *really* not the case. The variability in viable weapon types is very high and you don't feel railroaded into any specific type. For example, underslung grenade launchers are *hugely* powerful and only available on ARs. Machineguns were nerfed but still incredibly powerful. I'm in late game and am doing the dual anacondas thing. I'm even using a shotgun with Barry and it's playing a key role in destroying cover and targeting multiple enemies in one shot.

You *can* outfit everyone with a sniper rifle and win that way, but it's no more overpowered than the varied approach I am using.

That's good to know, @Raeven. I will see how my first playthrough of the game is when I start the game in the next few days.

[shadoww]

On 8/7/2023 at 5:56 PM, LXant said:

Except it's really not. It is limited to only two modifications and has a decreased range of 32 vs the 36 you get with all other sniper rifles.

It's okay-ish and better than pistols or the cheap MP40 you find in the beginning, but even a FN-FAL, which is available the moment you are in Port Cacao, outperforms the Gewehr 98 in every way.

It only feels powerful, because your early options are between a pile of crap and dirt. So it shines bright as the only 30+dmg/30+ range weapon among 15-18 dmg/range 14-20 weapons.

how fn-fal is better than gewehr? auto-burst shot is useless and gewehr is one shot one kill weapon. plus you dont need modification other than sniper scope and silencer. they are just extra. they are pretty much same not much big difference if you ask me. plus not quite sure about this but every time i use these auto weapons aiming always choose burst as default which means extra click for one shot and i always forget this before aiming 3x and if you switch to one shot after this your aim clicks get resetted tl/dr you click 5-6 times more for just a single shot.

plus i dont go to port-cacao because before slave camp, fleatown and communists town pentagurel or smth. port cacao is somehow connected with refugee camp crisis i believe.

Edited August 8, 2023 by shadoww

[sandman25dcsss]

23 minutes ago, shadoww said:

how fn-fal is better than gewehr? auto-burst shot is useless and gewehr is one shot one kill weapon. plus you dont need modification other than sniper scope and silencer. they are just extra. they are pretty much same not much big difference if you ask me. plus not quite sure about this but every time i use these auto weapons aiming always choose burst as default which means extra click for one shot and i always forget this before aiming 3x and if you switch to one shot after this your aim clicks get resetted tl/dr you click 5-6 times more for just a single shot.

plus i dont go to port-cacao because before slave camp, fleatown and communists town pentagurel or smth. port cacao is somehow connected with refugee camp crisis i believe.

Fn-fal allows to kill 2 enemies per turn.

[Melliores]

Gewehr 98

Damage (single shot) - 36
AP Cost - 7
Extra shot modes - none
Range - 32
Crit Chance - 1*Merc level
Aim bonus - 5 ( can rise to 7 with Sniper scope)

At best you can make 2 attack per turn but you need a really good merc to pull these off with no Bipod, grip, stock and UV dot. You will also have little points left for Aiming. Most of the time you will have one attack, one kill per turn.

FN Fal
Damage (single shot) - 30
AP Cost - 5 (4 with short barrel)
Extra shot modes - Burst, Full Auto, Launch grenade (with launcher)
Range - 24 (30 with long barrel, 20 with short barrel)
Crit Chance - 1*Merc level
Aim bonus - 2

The FAL can equip a Bipod for extra accuracy, the long barrel also add extra Aim, you have also a heavy stock. But that is not all - late game you have a lot more enemies coming your way - you can configure your FAL for an Overwatch merc and add the underbarrel launcher for lumping grenades at approaching enemies.

Thus even when firing in single shot, you can easily attack twice, three times if you are not aiming or even four attacks per turn if you use a short barrel (but this is not a sniper configuration). In sniper configuration, the FAL has two solid attacks per turn at range of 30 (compared to 32 of the Gewehr) and has the additional mods that add accuracy.

But that is not all - you can also lob a grenade via the launcher to kill multiple enemies, or even launch two grenades that turn if they are bunched up. The Gewehr 98 will never be able to match such utility and lethality per turn. 🙂

Edited August 8, 2023 by Melliores

[shadoww]

no idea. i use dragunov now. i didnt play late game for now, gewehr is good before dragunov. and couldnt kill 2 people with fal either since i dont have that much AP.

Edited August 8, 2023 by shadoww

[Melliores]

@shadoww

It can equip a silencer and does pretty well. With a Hard stock, bipod, UV dot and Long barrel it has way better accuracy than most sniper rifles in fact.

[LXant]

29 minutes ago, shadoww said:

how fn-fal is better than gewehr? auto-burst shot is useless and gewehr is one shot one kill weapon. plus you dont need modification other than sniper scope and silencer. they are just extra. they are pretty much same not much big difference if you ask me. plus not quite sure about this but every time i use these auto weapons aiming always choose burst as default which means extra click for one shot and i always forget this before aiming 3x and if you switch to one shot after this your aim clicks get resetted tl/dr you click 5-6 times more for just a single shot.

plus i dont go to port-cacao because before slave camp, fleatown and communists town pentagurel or smth. port cacao is somehow connected with refugee camp crisis i believe.

Gewehr is single shot only, with 36 dmg at 32 range and 3% crit and a 5 shot magazine. You can only add two modifications, and shooting costs 7 AP at aim lvl 1.

FN-FAL is 30 dmg at 30 range with many auto-increases for aim thanks to the mods you can put on that weapon. Among the possible mods is the same thermal scope you have on sniper rifles, and you can change into 3-burst and full auto if you want for even more dmg, but you don't have to. Makes the weapon incredibly versatile, as it is an AR as well as a shorter-ranged sniper rifle. Not to mention that is has more crit than the Gewehr. It's 30-45 dmg (or more) for 5 AP per shot, so you can shoot twice even when aiming. Then there's the magazine, starts at 30 bullets and can go way up. No need to reload in combat thanks to that.

Overall it has better aim and more or less behaves like a light sniper rifle.

Saying that modifications are not needed, when the weapon can have up to 8 mods, leaves so much potential on the table, it's baffling that you would think that. Do we play the same game?

I won't even talk about the "you have to click too much with the FN-FAL" argument, that has absolutely no bearing on the gun's performance whatsoever. Same for "I don't go to Port Cacao", that's not the point. The point is that you can get the FN-FAL the moment you leave Ernie, making it 100% guaranteed available in the early stage of the game. Chips for mods are also easy to come by, as it's a common drop from scrapping the bought Fleatown weapons.

Edited August 8, 2023 by LXant

[shadoww]

then dont talk idiot you are saying "i wont do" but you do as typing an article about this. low iq problems?

 

i used fal with raven in early game, burst was not close to ja2. so it is not "incredibly versatile". burst and auto shots are joke in this game. never ever killed an enemy with burst while single shot gewehr did the job. maybe fal is doing same single shot too -i couldnt get any one headshot kill in early game with fal. maybe because i didnt use chips in early game. - but the point is you can get gewehr is the very beginning of the game and you can use it until mid-game or maybe end-game it never gets too bad but there is no reason to not upgrading that with dragunovs (i only played about the major).

plus the discussion was about you can get best weapons from the day 1 (sniper & laser scope) unlike ja2 and get headshots with mercs who have 50-60 MRK until finish the game with that. that only makes the argument stronger. you get fal or dragunov in very early game depends to place you go if you from start top left you get dragunov, if you go port cacao you get fal or you may find those in fleatown too.

btw i have raven equipped with fully modded AK-74 and AR-15. sniping still best but sometimes i want to shoot burst for fun nothing more.

Edited August 8, 2023 by shadoww

[shadoww]

also didnt ever use talon launcher too, since i have always 1-2 mercs equipped with lots explosive. grenades, mortar, RPG or grenade launchers. why would i use a rifle with underslung grenade launcher with my headshot guy? it depends people's playstyle but doesnt fit mine. maybe the ones doing one merc playthrough can use this.

Edited August 8, 2023 by shadoww

[Raeven]

35 minutes ago, shadoww said:

why would i use a rifle with underslung grenade launcher with my headshot guy?

Because the distance you can launch grenades with that thing is absolutely broken compared to thrown grenades.

[Raeven]

1 hour ago, LXant said:

Chips for mods are also easy to come by, as it's a common drop from scrapping the bought Fleatown weapons.

You damned genius.

[sandman25dcsss]

11 hours ago, Raeven said:

You damned genius.

People praise JA series for being hard and having smart mechanic and yet it has unlimited training and unlimited "supposedly rare" component. You are cheating if you use training and shops in the game. Xcom2 is way harder as it does not break challenge on strategic level.

[Raeven]

13 hours ago, sandman25dcsss said:

People praise JA series for being hard and having smart mechanic and yet it has unlimited training and unlimited "supposedly rare" component. You are cheating if you use training and shops in the game. Xcom2 is way harder as it does not break challenge on strategic level.

Training is extremely time consuming though. I spent two days training someone and they got 4 points of mechanic skill out of it. The trainer and student both had high wisdom, too. That's a massive time commitment compared to other operations.

It's true that you can metagame and just train your mercs, but the game does a good job of making players feel like they are under pressure (even if you can get away with it). For most players, I don't think the time sink of training will be used very much with all of the other priorities going on and the feeling that your mines could run out (or be captured) at any time.

Comparing the difficulty of this game against XCOM is a little odd, imo. It's like comparing the difficulty of Doom vs Skyrim. The games are too different from each other to be directly compared in that way.

Although I do know of a way to increase the difficulty. You're not gonna like it though 🙃