Necessary upgrades before launch

[Raeven]

6 hours ago, LoboNocturno said:

@Solaris_Wave Hopefully we will not encounter a very over powered weapon in JA3 as the "Rocket Rifle" in JA2. It was by far the most powerful weapon in the game.

I always found rocket rifles to be impractical actually because of their high AP cost compared to end game rifles like the FAL, RPK, C-7 etc.

[Raeven]

Has anyone looked through the live streams who can definitively say how shared inventory works? Is it accessible during combat? Does it cost AP to access?

I hear a lot of speculation about the possible "worst case scenario" but not a lot of clarity on what's actually in the game as shown thus far.

Another point of consideration is that we already know that JA3 will have fine grained difficulty options. Perhaps shared inventory will be an example of those settings. That could be a good solution.

[DougS2K]

20 minutes ago, Raeven said:

Has anyone looked through the live streams who can definitively say how shared inventory works? Is it accessible during combat? Does it cost AP to access?

It's accessible all the time and costs no AP. This is even how bullets are pulled when you reload.

20 minutes ago, Raeven said:

Another point of consideration is that we already know that JA3 will have fine grained difficulty options. Perhaps shared inventory will be an example of those settings. That could be a good solution.

As far as we know, shared inventory is hard coded into the game and there is no option that will change that. It's a base function of the game. There are options for difficulty levels, immediate death vs downing of mercs along with saving options and such, but nothing in regards to inventory. 

[Raeven]

5 minutes ago, DougS2K said:

It's accessible all the time and costs no AP. This is even how bullets are pulled when you reload.

Well... that does kinda suck, if true.

Sounds like low hanging fruit for a mod 🙂

[DougS2K]

3 minutes ago, Raeven said:

Well... that does kinda suck, if true.

Sounds like low hanging fruit for a mod 🙂

Yeah, shared inventory is a terrible system. I really have no idea why they would implement this. There is literally no weight penalty for anything in the game, especially ammo as you can magically carrying thousands upon thousands of bullets in shared inventory

[Povok]

1 hour ago, DougS2K said:

It's accessible all the time and costs no AP. This is even how bullets are pulled when you reload.

If that is actualy true it's a thing that is going to have a BIG negative impact on... everything... 

 

[Solaris_Wave]

9 hours ago, LoboNocturno said:

@Solaris_Wave I never really used shotguns in my countless playthroughs since 25 years lol. Guess am simply not the shotgun type of guy (also in real life). Even in very close range i can use assault rifles or dessert eagle, also at times the throwing knife (with a throwing expert like Dimitri).

Using snipers much less then assault rifles as well since they eat too much AP.

Shotguns saw limited use with me because the enemy wore too much armour. They were only useful in the beginning. I could see them possibly being more useful or even overpowered in JA3. Unless they have fixed the AI and removed automatic damage penalty, you could probably run up to an enemy and shoot them in the face with shotguns.

Sniper rifles did use a lot of AP but they dominated in JA2 because aimed, single-shot fire to the head reigned supreme, especially to mitigate the enemy body armour. Automatic fire was rarely useful for killing enemies unless you could guarantee those rounds would hit each time. Anything less than that and you had random bullets randomly hitting and peppering their thick body armour.

[Solaris_Wave]

2 hours ago, DougS2K said:

It's accessible all the time and costs no AP. This is even how bullets are pulled when you reload.

This really sucks. No AP usage so why even take spare magazines? No need to think about who carries what, due to their skills and strength, as there is no weight penalty. Who is your squad machine gunner? It doesn't matter anymore.

 

2 hours ago, DougS2K said:

As far as we know, shared inventory is hard coded into the game and there is no option that will change that. It's a base function of the game. There are options for difficulty levels, immediate death vs downing of mercs along with saving options and such, but nothing in regards to inventory.

Which means I can't fix it. Which also sucks.

[D13]

I still think there's more to this than what we know. Take the following screenshot:

If the shared inventory (squad supplies) can be accessed by all, at any time, and at no cost - then why can ammo be stored in individual inventories (backpacks) in the first place? Surely the latter must have some advantage?

Based on some of the streams I got the impression that backpacks could not be used to store consumables like bullets, just like the squad supplies can apparently only hold such items. Then there would have been some obvious logic to it, whether we agree with it or not. But the above screenshot is from a more recent version than the one shown in streams (you can tell by the green first aid kit, streamers had the red one).

[Jaywalker]

3 hours ago, DougS2K said:

Yeah, shared inventory is a terrible system.

It's an excellent QoL system. 1.13 LBE pornography is just that, it had no gameplay value beyond adding busywork between you and the combat.

As far as what we know from the streams available, most of the complaints about it are based entirely on ignorance:

• It is only shared within a squad, if you split teams you need to supply each of them independently.
• During combat, you can only access what the merc has in their personal inventory.

[Raeven]

3 minutes ago, Jaywalker said:

It's an excellent QoL system. 1.13 LBE pornography is just that, it had no gameplay value beyond adding busywork between you and the combat.

As far as what we know from the streams available, most of the complaints about it are based entirely on ignorance:

• It is only shared within a squad, if you split teams you need to supply each of them independently.
• During combat, you can only access what the merc has in their personal inventory.

Hmm, that's a direct contradiction to @DougS2K's statement. Who is correct?

If true, I think this works a lot better, honestly the limited inventory of JA2 is a huge PITA when moving stuff from sector to sector.... Like come on, does this helicopter not have a trunk??? Lol. So I can see some advantages.

[DougS2K]

1 hour ago, Jaywalker said:

It's an excellent QoL system. 1.13 LBE pornography is just that, it had no gameplay value beyond adding busywork between you and the combat.

As far as what we know from the streams available, most of the complaints about it are based entirely on ignorance:

• It is only shared within a squad, if you split teams you need to supply each of them independently.
• During combat, you can only access what the merc has in their personal inventory.

Do you have some recent footage of these two points you made since I've have not seen this behavior at all? Here's my experience. 

1. Squad inventory is automatically split if you split a squad. Maybe this changed very recently but I haven't seen any videos with this change.

2. Maybe I should have been more specific. Anything in squad inventory can be accessed at any time by anyone whether in combat or not. Note squad inventory is only ammo and meds and such, not weapons or other gear. So you never actually have to have ammo in your mercs inventory as it can be pulled right from squad inventory when reloading.

I definitely wouldn't call squad inventory QoL changes. It's very unrealistic to be able to carrying thousands of rounds of ammo with no weight penalty. It's as if there is magic carpet flying around with your mercs all the time just loaded with ammo boxes. 

Edited June 22, 2023 by DougS2K

[Solaris_Wave]

I wouldn't call it a QoL change either. JA2 vanilla might have a cumbersome system towards the end game (but only at that point, for me) and v1.13 might be more fiddly, but surely there is a middle ground?

It is almost as if somebody had a quick go at either version of JA2, had zero patience and said, "Let's do this instead…"

Either that or there is still this mentality that the modern generation of gamers are easily taxed or frustrated by such a thing.

 

"Right, you need to make sure you have enough magazines, grenades and first aid kits for your mercs."

 

"Naaaah, LOLZ! Where are my sick Kill Streaks, yo?"

 

 

(It even pained me to write that last bit.)

Edited June 22, 2023 by Solaris_Wave

[Uncle Nick]

Devs said: 'Time is Money'. I think after people begin playing the game, they will realise that their mercs will have to hustle and double time to get thru their objectives. All those logistics heavy, micro management tasks that people enjoy doing in JA2, will just be a distant memory. 

[Jaywalker]

6 hours ago, DougS2K said:

I definitely wouldn't call squad inventory QoL changes. It's very unrealistic to be able to carrying thousands of rounds of ammo with no weight penalty. It's as if there is magic carpet flying around with your mercs all the time just loaded with ammo boxes. 

It's not unrealistic, it's what you recruited a "packmule" merc for, or why you carried a large pack in 1.13: there is no penalty to lugging all that stuff beyond having to click a button to drop it all at the start of combat.

Shared inventory gets rid of the pointless busywork of having to do those trivial things and ultimately: this is an RPG game, not a survival simulation. Some level of abstraction, like the local carrying your luggage, does not need to be visually represented to anyone with an ounce of imagination.
 

6 hours ago, Solaris_Wave said:

I wouldn't call it a QoL change either. JA2 vanilla might have a cumbersome system towards the end game (but only at that point, for me) and v1.13 might be more fiddly, but surely there is a middle ground?

This is the middle ground, the next step is to do what XCOM remakes did and only worry about what your soldiers have equipped and remove the logistics aspect entirely (even going as far as to have gear unlocked rather than making it piece by piece for everyone, though they kept it as a mechanic for specialty items and mod support).

Edited June 23, 2023 by Jaywalker

[DougS2K]

6 hours ago, Jaywalker said:

It's not unrealistic, it's what you recruited a "packmule" merc for, or why you carried a large pack in 1.13: there is no penalty to lugging all that stuff beyond having to click a button to drop it all at the start of combat.

Your joking right? You think it's realistic for soldiers to have infinite ammo with no weight penalty? I'm sure real soldiers would love to have an infinite amount of ammo that they don't have to carry on their person but that's not reality.

The penalty in JA2 was a weight penalty which affected movement speed and stamina.

6 hours ago, Jaywalker said:

Shared inventory gets rid of the pointless busywork of having to do those trivial things and ultimately: this is an RPG game, not a survival simulation. Some level of abstraction, like the local carrying your luggage, does not need to be visually represented to anyone with an ounce of imagination.

This is the middle ground, the next step is to do what XCOM remakes did and only worry about what your soldiers have equipped and remove the logistics aspect entirely (even going as far as to have gear unlocked rather than making it piece by piece for everyone, though they kept it as a mechanic for specialty items and mod support).

No thanks. Don't get me wrong, I like Xcom games. However, we don't want this to be another Xcom game.

Doing all the as you say "busy work", is not busy work for a lot of us and is part of what made the JA series so great. 

[Solaris_Wave]

It isn't a survival sim, that is true. It isn't just an RPG either. It is a turn-based tactical squad control game. Those traditionally go with equipping your soldiers and managing the various inventory items, so there is a balance between being equipped well enough for the battles your men face but not over-encumbered.

However, if you wanted to use the term 'RPG' as the argument for having a convenient shared inventory, almost every true RPG I have ever played, has inventory management and a weight limit. How often do your characters need weapons, armour and equipment, which take up weight (and often space)? Then, you will search locations for stuff, get into combat and end up with found items, which you try to carry as much as possible (and often get overburdened) so you can take it back to a safe zone to sell the whole lot off?

Everybody has a different idea of what is a positive feature for JA3, but the shared inventory system just sounds annoying to me because it is over simplifying something I rarely found awkward, and I will be stuck with it. No doubt, games journalists will sing its praises for its convenient simplicity, just like they sung the praises of the simplification of the XCOM reboot. I meanwhile, like things based on logic and game ideas that match reality. I like to work things out. I like military strategy, tactics and logistics and if I have control over those aspects, it makes me feel more integrated in the process.

If it was tedious and constant busywork, I might find it a pain to deal with and too much of a distraction. I never did though. It remained at a comfortable level for me.

Edited June 23, 2023 by Solaris_Wave

[Povok]

On 6/23/2023 at 7:20 AM, Jaywalker said:

It's not unrealistic, it's what you recruited a "packmule" merc for, or why you carried a large pack in 1.13: there is no penalty to lugging all that stuff beyond having to click a button to drop it all at the start of combat.

There are several issues with this statement... 

Let's assusme it's true you hired a packmule - there was still limitation, how much you could load there. If you had large pack - it was still related to space and especially weight. 

No penalty? Cost off maintaining a "mule", number of items you can load, and especially weight of items which directly affects stamina (even while traveling). Disregarding all this - the items you "conveniently" drop at start of the combat are still not available. 

A big part of a battle is being prepared for combat. If you have everything available and don't need think what to take with you before combat beggins, this is eliminated and a big part of planing is just gone. FFS we have an option to scout a sector (which is great) to better prepare for what avaits - now why would you scout a sector if you don't need to plan what to take with you?

So having inventory shared and non restricting is quite unrealistic and overly simplified. 

On 6/23/2023 at 7:20 AM, Jaywalker said:

Some level of abstraction, like the local carrying your luggage, does not need to be visually represented to anyone with an ounce of imagination.

I agree. Mercenaries are however not using exoskeletons to help them carry stuff around, not traveling with dropships and not using weapons with endless fuel-cells.

[Solaris_Wave]

It would be a good time to ask how many people actually struggled with JA2's inventory system? Or at least, found it a chore?

This can apply to vanilla and the v1.13 patch. If it did become a nuisance, when did you feel that way? Throughout the entire campaign, midway or only towards the end?

I would be interested to know why Haemimont were so keen to create the shared inventory and how many JA2 players really asked for a different system. Did Haemimont do it based on feedback or did they just create something they all thought we wanted?

Edited June 24, 2023 by Solaris_Wave

[DougS2K]

1 hour ago, Solaris_Wave said:

or did they just create something they all thought we wanted?

I believe it was this part, or at least partly. They may have done it to cut corners as this system might be easier to implement and just figured nobody would care. Unfortunately, the majority of us do care and don't want shared inventory. I'm sure they have had plenty of feedback, including during the beta, on how basic the inventory system is over the last few months but it appears they're sticking with this one I guess. 🤷‍♂️

[D13]

But there still are individual inventories. Why implement both? What would that add to the game? Someone at Haemimont should clarify or we might end up discussing this for the next three weeks, only to discover there's some important aspect we weren't even aware of.

[Xeth Nyrrow]

1 hour ago, Solaris_Wave said:

It would be a good time to ask how many people actually struggled with JA2's inventory system? Or at least, found it a chore?

This can apply to vanilla and the v1.13 patch. If it did become a nuisance, when did you feel that way? Throughout the entire campaign, midway or only towards the end?

I would be interested to know why Haemimont were so keen to create the shared inventory and how many JA2 players really asked for a different system. Did Haemimont do it based on feedback or did they just create something they all thought we wanted?

I definitely felt that way once I had enough extra gear laying around. This happened usually after taking about 3-4 POIs and needing to shift all the excess equipment around. 20+ years ago this type of hyper, micro-management of inventory was the norm but that doesn't mean it's the best way to do it. Inventory QoL aspects have evolved over the years for various reasons which is a good thing for all players.

Having said that, I think the player getting a magical bag of holding is going too far though. Removing the tactical aspects of limited gear/ammo is a dumbing down thing for sure to let the player focus more time playing the core game functions. In addition to this, I'm 100% certain this was done to appeal to a larger audience. I'll even go so far as to say it appeals to more people than it turns off because people have to remember that we are the vocal minority.

[Povok]

24 minutes ago, Xeth Nyrrow said:

In addition to this, I'm 100% certain this was done to appeal to a larger audience. I'll even go so far as to say it appeals to more people than it turns off because people have to remember that we are the vocal minority.

This is an issue where IMO many developers fail. And unfortunatelly it is likely it is going to happen here too.

When a feature is likely to appeal to a larger audience but the vocal minority is against it, it comes down to whom this actually matters. Larger audience doesn't realy care how this is going to be implemented - they do care however, what reviews the game is going to get - and these are going to come from the vocal community.

Here is a very nice () example: https://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/company-of-heroes-3

[Stuurminator]

1 hour ago, D13 said:

But there still are individual inventories. Why implement both? What would that add to the game? Someone at Haemimont should clarify or we might end up discussing this for the next three weeks, only to discover there's some important aspect we weren't even aware of.

Not everything is shared. My understanding is that only medical supplies, scrap parts, and ammunition is kept in the shared inventory.

It's been said that the essence of gameplay is interesting decision-making. I don't work for Haemimont and I'm not a mind reader, but my assumption is that they believe the distribution of ammo or medical supplies is not actually an interesting gameplay choice. I know that when I play JA2, once I capture the airport and can properly equip my mercs, I typically give all my units two magazines and two first aid kits (unless they have 0 medical skill), because that's what stacks in one small cell. I almost never stray from that, which means I'm almost never actually making a real choice when I distribute ammo and medical supplies to my mercs. I can't remember the last time I've had a merc actually run out of ammo or medical supplies.

I suspect - and this is only conjecture - that Haemimont figures these are meaningless decisions that should be cleared out to expedite the path to more interesting gameplay.

[Stazco]

Right now im struggling a lot with scarce med kits and hospitals, and do care about every ap magazine (wf6).

I ENJOY it!)