Best long weapon - maybe FAMAS

[Warmonger]

With right ammunition I mean above all the different types like hollow point or armour-piercing. It goes without saying that you use the correct caliber. The game, like in real life, doesn't allow anything else anyway. I always prefer hollow point if a target is not protected.

[Solaris_Wave]

Just reading the comments about suppression, does that mean that sweeping machine gun fire will not suppress multiple targets at the same time?

[MateKiddleton]

It suppresses whoever it hits.

[Melliores]

Just to clear some airs:

To apply Suppressed status you actually need to hit your target. This can be done either via full Auto or by hitting them in the groin area with any shot (single, burst, long burst, full auto, special).

Suppressed status lowers by 4 the character's AP for that turn and removes the ability to flank enemies. So even if they have ridiculous Free move, they will not be getting any damage bonus from it by Flanking you.

This means that going full auto with early game rifles and SMGs is a waste of ammo as they have low base accuracy and almost no bullets will hit.

If you want to counter the bigger Free movement range on Mission impossible, simply aim for the legs. It gives them a 300% slower movement for one turn, which essentially makes them sitting ducks. Tex's special talent is very good for this.

Edited July 31, 2023 by Melliores

[sandman25dcsss]

I checked source code and Suppressed is always applied to main target i.e. the enemy you targeted with the attack or overwatch no matter if attack connects or not. If bullets hit other units (including allies from friendly fire), they are suppressed too.

[D13]

Yes, I have seen the "suppressed" status being inflicted by full auto attacks during which no damage indicator was shown, and after which the target's health status (wounded, almost dead...) did not deteriorate.

But I guess even if no hits are required, there is some type of required minimum proximity for the bullets to miss the target in order for "suppressed" to be inflicted.   (I wish there were official documentation to clearly explain these mechanics.)

Anyway, in my opinion, it makes more sense for suppression to not require hits, as there should be two paths to suppression - psychological (= mere fear of being hit by many bullets) and physical (e.g. actual groin hits, grenades).

 

[Jaywalker]

Supression happens on:

• Main target
• Anyone else hit by strays

I could see modding add a "shotgun cone" that is what applies the actual suppression, to the attack.

[5Cents]

7 hours ago, Warmonger said:

With right ammunition I mean above all the different types like hollow point or armour-piercing. It goes without saying that you use the correct caliber. The game, like in real life, doesn't allow anything else anyway. I always prefer hollow point if a target is not protected.

There ARE different types of ammunition, for every caliber, yes. But it was about calibers, not about bullets (AP, HP, Tracer, etc).

But at the moment i have the impression, that devs were successfull, in their idea of simplification or fantasied version of weapons.

But to be honest, this simplification, the devs have done, for whatever reasons, maybe less micromanagment, seems a pretty lazy excuse, for me.

There are a pretty difference in calibers, about range and lethal destruction. These differences are not meaningless.The devs seemed to think, it would be a good idea, to replace caliber with different damage of weapon. For example, the ingame AK47 has the same caliber like AK74. The AK74 actually only exists because it has NOT 7,62 WP. It was invented to have as a smaller caliber Version of The AK47 (for the smaller and lighter 5,45x39 cartriges). The same for Versions, RPK-74 and AK-SU.

If they devs had changed AK74 to 5,56 NATO it had been more appropriate, because bullet-behaviour and so on, is more similar, than to 7.62x39 mm.

Leads me to the question, why they even deciced to have ANY difference in  ammunition? Why the heck they did they made the descision to difference between 5.56 and 7.62??

Why not just simply using AMMO Crates, when they were thinking, players will be overburdened and unable??

7 hours ago, Warmonger said:

With right ammunition I mean above all the different types like hollow point or armour-piercing. It goes without saying that you use the correct caliber. The game, like in real life, doesn't allow anything else anyway. I always prefer hollow point if a target is not protected.

So damage and also ammo piercing (a bit?) depends on used weapon, not the caliber or not only the ArmorPiercing-bullets.

Why is a ingame weapon armorpiercing? Doubles it the cartriges AP? I couldnt find a ingame explanation regarding this question. Somebody else? Why has an Anti-Material-Rifle, like the Barett Medium, the same "Penetration" like AK74. I dont think ingamepersons want to have sex with a gun. All other ARs have light or none??? Is that a Joke or what?

Devs could have done two versions, like in JA2, tons of guns or without..sciencefiction wpns or realistic wpns, because they already had some debate about some weapon topics, like autodamage, i read.
One 'arcade-modus', one for more difficulty for more thinking player.

But what we've got, weapons are more like a fictional-fantasy version (But i repeating me all the time..).
I think many players dont care at all, and enjoying having different weapons that are using the same ammunition.
For example there is a mod on steam, patronizing the Minimi in 9mm..🤭
So i suppose, I am only a exception, with my personally so called comic-moment..deterred by the game 😅

Its actually a bit sad, i think, because the models of weapons look pretty good and the appearence of modded version of weapons is also pretty realistic (Original underbarel attachments, different handguards, etc)

But at least its easy, to change some things. So, thats at last a good base for modding options (what in my case ist necessary, for playing it, more than one time..; )
There are no magazins, there is no bullet-mamagment. I can easily play with that.

But, on the other side of the medal; If they had really been consequent, what would they have done? Invented a better Inventory-managment system, right...

 

6 hours ago, Melliores said:

To apply Suppressed status you actually need to hit your target. This can be done either via full Auto or by hitting them in the groin area with any shot (single, burst, long burst, full auto, special).

Thats the real downer for me. On battlefield, one of main tasks of a machinegunner is to lock out areas for the enemy and doing supression fire. Not pointfiring and concentrate on a special target and wasting ammunition with that.

So if supression does not really work in the game, what are machineguns good for? If you want to, you better choose an AR for doing pointaimed autofire (no, there is no overheating)..because of less APs needed.

So. There is a lot of work to do, but i decided i'll do it by my own, not loading all these mods, with the same or similar contents, who are already there or will be there, in near future, i suppose.

Edited July 31, 2023 by 5Cents

[Melliores]

@5Cents

The machinegun is still an excellent area of denial weapon. Set it up on Overwatch and you can still use all your AP to shoot, while you will be having interrupt shots against anyone in the area of effect.

Moreover, some of the machineguns are better than even sniper rifles for long-range elimination of targets. They are still very good without having to inflict a debuff called Suppressed. And both your mercs and AI will simply stay in place or take cover if they cannot get away from the cone of a machinegun. 🙂

[Raeven]

23 hours ago, 5Cents said:

Makes sense, yes. Like in JA2 Vanilla.

I don't think this is true. On my recent playthrough I noticed that single shots were almost always higher damage, sometimes significantly higher damage, than burst shots.

[marcinl0]

Result = mods Increased Damage Automatic Fire or Full Damage.

I use useful New Calibers and Weapon Rebalance mod - best IMHO.

Edited July 31, 2023 by marcinl0

[Solaris_Wave]

12 hours ago, D13 said:

Yes, I have seen the "suppressed" status being inflicted by full auto attacks during which no damage indicator was shown, and after which the target's health status (wounded, almost dead...) did not deteriorate.

But I guess even if no hits are required, there is some type of required minimum proximity for the bullets to miss the target in order for "suppressed" to be inflicted.   (I wish there were official documentation to clearly explain these mechanics.)

Anyway, in my opinion, it makes more sense for suppression to not require hits, as there should be two paths to suppression - psychological (= mere fear of being hit by many bullets) and physical (e.g. actual groin hits, grenades).

 

Suppression should really come into effect if bullets are landing near the target, as well as hitting the target. Put simply, the target doesn't want to be hit by even one bullet, hence the decision to either stay down or brave it and move out.

Suppression level should be stronger if the target gets wounded or if their comrades get hit.

Suppression shouldn't just apply to bullets but any lethal area effect weapon. Grenades, mortar shells and other artillery will be just as suppressive as any inbound automatic fire.

 

8 hours ago, 5Cents said:

There ARE different types of ammunition, for every caliber, yes. But it was about calibers, not about bullets (AP, HP, Tracer, etc).

But at the moment i have the impression, that devs were successfull, in their idea of simplification or fantasied version of weapons.

But to be honest, this simplification, the devs have done, for whatever reasons, maybe less micromanagment, seems a pretty lazy excuse, for me.

There are a pretty difference in calibers, about range and lethal destruction. These differences are not meaningless.The devs seemed to think, it would be a good idea, to replace caliber with different damage of weapon. For example, the ingame AK47 has the same caliber like AK74. The AK74 actually only exists because it has NOT 7,62 WP. It was invented to have as a smaller caliber Version of The AK47 (for the smaller and lighter 5,45x39 cartriges). The same for Versions, RPK-74 and AK-SU.

If they devs had changed AK74 to 5,56 NATO it had been more appropriate, because bullet-behaviour and so on, is more similar, than to 7.62x39 mm.

Leads me to the question, why they even deciced to have ANY difference in  ammunition? Why the heck they did they made the descision to difference between 5.56 and 7.62??

Why not just simply using AMMO Crates, when they were thinking, players will be overburdened and unable??

So damage and also ammo piercing (a bit?) depends on used weapon, not the caliber or not only the ArmorPiercing-bullets.

Why is a ingame weapon armorpiercing? Doubles it the cartriges AP? I couldnt find a ingame explanation regarding this question. Somebody else? Why has an Anti-Material-Rifle, like the Barett Medium, the same "Penetration" like AK74. I dont think ingamepersons want to have sex with a gun. All other ARs have light or none??? Is that a Joke or what?

Devs could have done two versions, like in JA2, tons of guns or without..sciencefiction wpns or realistic wpns, because they already had some debate about some weapon topics, like autodamage, i read.
One 'arcade-modus', one for more difficulty for more thinking player.

But what we've got, weapons are more like a fictional-fantasy version (But i repeating me all the time..).
I think many players dont care at all, and enjoying having different weapons that are using the same ammunition.
For example there is a mod on steam, patronizing the Minimi in 9mm..🤭
So i suppose, I am only a exception, with my personally so called comic-moment..deterred by the game 😅

Its actually a bit sad, i think, because the models of weapons look pretty good and the appearence of modded version of weapons is also pretty realistic (Original underbarel attachments, different handguards, etc)

But at least its easy, to change some things. So, thats at last a good base for modding options (what in my case ist necessary, for playing it, more than one time..; )
There are no magazins, there is no bullet-mamagment. I can easily play with that.

Reading stuff like this sadly tells me that JA3 is not the game I was hoping it would be. I will play when the opportunity comes and probably have fun but I know that it will feel like a throwaway game. Unless I or someone else mods in the realism that the game deserves.

That was why I played JA2 in the first place: because it was more realism orientated and based on current real world weapons. I have learnt and experienced a lot in terms of firearms since then but it was still closer to reality than not. If I wanted fantastical weapons, I would stay with X-COM.

Which is why the more I read about JA3, the more I read about lack of realism, cutting corners, lack of natural balance, following old mistakes while creating new ones. Basically a missed opportunity. For me, that is.

As you have said, what is the point of having the AK-74 in the game if it uses the same cartridge as the AK-47/AKM? It is practically the same firearm, chambered for 5.45x39mm. Why does the SVD Dragunov use a weaker cartridge instead of the long range, full power cartridge meant for battle rifles and sniper rifles of that era?

Too much has been made of individual weapon stats that don't make sense. Too much emphasis has been made of weapon mods. Jagged Alliance was an RPG combined with strategy set in the real world. Now it feels like they have shifted the balance farther towards the RPG side, making the weapons characters in themselves.

Somebody could answer (and have answered for other games) that without these changes for the game, all guns are the same. That is simply not true. I could keep all the guns mod free and like their real life counterparts and still have plenty of differences.

The various calibres are not hard to implement. I supplied such information in my Weapon Characteristics thread ages ago (now buried under several pages). All of that could have been included, keeping all the weapons viable and with plenty of difference. No one weapon would have dominated because no one weapon dominates in reality, in every field and in every scenario.

Some cartridges are naturally designed for greater armour penetration too, without the need for specific armour-piercing rounds.

But none of this really made it into the game, keeping JA3 focused on being just that: a game. A fun, little game to pass the time with. I am not expecting JA2 v1.13 levels of minute detail but I was expecting so much more than what JA3 appears to be and did what I could to try to get it to somewhere higher than what it is.

[D13]

5 hours ago, Raeven said:

I don't think this is true. On my recent playthrough I noticed that single shots were almost always higher damage, sometimes significantly higher damage, than burst shots.

It could be because of lower accuracy (no aim levels in burst mode) or because the merc was unable to handle recoil after the first bullet (although I'm not sure if accuracy penalty was added only with 1.13). Anyway, these are just two explanations that I would have preferred to see in JA3 as more believable ways of disincentivizing burst/auto fire.

But then again, JA3 makes bullets cause more damage if the target is flanked, which makes even less sense. (I would understand if a flanked target had lower accuracy, or were unable to take proper cover, or were more easily suppressed. There are many ways to reward successful flanking, on top of the actual tactical purpose of flanking. But the same bullet from the same gun should not become more dangerous.)

This I thought was an interesting read on the subject of bullet damage adjustment (on reddit): https://www.reddit.com/r/JaggedAlliance/comments/15esxiw/the_math_of_firing_at_burst_and_full_auto_is/

 

[Solaris_Wave]

A bullet shouldn't do more damage or less damage just because more were fired or because the shooter stood at a different angle. Its factors should depend on things like weather, barrel length, quality of the ammunition, velocity and design.

I think flanking should create the same amount of damage. Any flanking bonuses to the shooter should be to cause greater suppression, quicker morale loss or stress, and to reflect the target looking elsewhere if it doesn't cost any action points to turn direction, a penalty to actually do so. This could be done by now actually causing an action points cost to turn (provided they have been fired upon first), or if action points are used up to change direction, to double or triple them.

[D13]

As it turns out, one merc's auto fire can suppress another merc, if the latter is hit. Friendly suppression.

[Solaris_Wave]

6 hours ago, D13 said:

As it turns out, one merc's auto fire can suppress another merc, if the latter is hit. Friendly suppression.

That makes sense. Bullets shouldn't be able to differentiate who they hit once in flight. Unless they were smart bullets that would slam on the brakes if they recognised friendlies and then went off in search of enemy targets.

Also, friendlies are less likely to shout out, "Don't worry, old boy! Just be careful next time." and more likely to start a sentence with the words, "You bastard…"

[LoboNocturno]

FN FAL & Galil are the best assault rifles of the game imo but they should have increased reach and a lil more damage so we can also use them effectively with single shots like back in JA2.

[Raeven]

21 hours ago, LoboNocturno said:

FN FAL & Galil are the best assault rifles of the game imo but they should have increased reach and a lil more damage so we can also use them effectively with single shots like back in JA2.

I'm in late game and using the FAL still but haven't touched the Galil. What's your reasoning? Crit chance? I haven't stuck with it long enough to get to know it well.