Rate the game.

[ShadowMagic]

typo. Accidentally wrote Haerimont 😄 (sounds better though)

[ShadowMagic]

26 minutes ago, ArulcoFan said:

This is like the typical level of criticism from people who maybe dont like what they see but then go out looking for criticisms vs actually noticing what is and isnt a mistake. Some of the female portraits look iffy. The male ones look mostly fine but I would still change their overall look and tone.

Heres the problem tho: some ja2 portraits were no less bad if not more so. Do you guys remember what fox looked like? Fox looked plain af, random generic chick from any area.

If you're going to criticize, make good fundamental criticisms, dont complain about 1 portrait. Dont go out looking for criticisns or try to find ways to criticize a game, any product can be criticized if you firce your criticisms or obsess over the unimportant.

I beg to differ.

Pointing out flaws (lets just agree many portraits are badly done) can lead to fruitfull discussions. Also, it's a developers job to really understand a game's franchise, what did and did not make them successful and act accordingly. If they did, they would pay a lot of attention to things like (interactive) portraits and details of characters that made them memorable (thus not some 'minor' thing) and it would not be a discussion at all.

Stuff like this will make the difference between a 5 bucks game from Steam sale or the next tribute to the JA franchise. Serving both the JA 'veterans' that simply want nostalgia, those that like to see new stuff and potential new customers gives the biggest chance to success.

How many failed attempts have we seen before where devs  tossed their own sauce over a classic game and seeing the project failing miserably? JA BIA? JA online? JA: Rage? JA: FB (did not even make it through KS).

Just saying...

Edited June 6, 2023 by ShadowMagic

[Flowable]

i honestly don't get the discussion on the portraits that pops up again and again. in JA2, as far as we can see it, we see the face, neck and a bit of the shoulders. If you look at the JA2 portraits you can roughly categorize it:

- Military --> Ivan, Igor, Len, Fidel
- Office --> Buns, Grunty, Stephen, Sidney
- Plain-clothed --> Lynx, Ice, Hitman, Red, Magic
- Work-related --> Dr. Q, Cliff, Trevor

And than there is a bunch i can't just see good enough to categorize. In-game it was just diffirent coloured pants, t-shirts and tank-tops.

So how we percieve the JA2 characters is mostly dialogue, flavour text and personal memory (like how well prepared they were and having the right gear up for a war zone). 

For JA3 references are being made about mercenary movies. In each and every single one of those movies the mercenaries are under equipped for a warzone especially armor wise. Because if you put em all in full military gear you loose the personalities. 

I think most of the portaits i've seen in JA3 can be categorized the same way as JA2. For me only one of them stands out negatively and that's Magic, looking like a 70's pimp or something. 

 

[Lunokhod]

17 minutes ago, Flowable said:

If you look at the JA2 portraits you can roughly categorize it:

Bro, its just a profile pictures(something like avatars on AIM site). Yes, we see only faces in game, no backgrounds and clothers. We cant even see Ivan's ushanka(hat). It doesnt mean or prove anything.

One more thing about Magic. Developers understand that he is a good thief. And he is one of the most dexterous mercs in the game. Why u didnt make him in sort of badass ninja style? Close to Blood. And as far as I remember they are friends. Really, why 70's pimp? Jesus, this is so stupid, how u do this baby mistakes? Haemimont... please...

Better do new model(outfits) for him, everyone angry about Magic. And give his pimp model to one of new NPC's in Cacao Port. Will be okay.

[ArulcoFan]

2 hours ago, ShadowMagic said:

I beg to differ.

Pointing out flaws (lets just agree many portraits are badly done) can lead to fruitfull discussions.

Ok boiler plate andy.

The criticism should be about something that actually matters it cant be about something like "JA2 sucks because the font on "jagged alliance" sucks. Who decided the name "jagged alliance" anyway"?

The font may suck but its not a valid criticism unless it actually matters. You can criticize just about anything but if in the course of criticism you try to imply something along the lines of "can you BELIEVE that they messed up the font of "jagged alliance" [in jagged alliance 2] then its like ok clearly you are not interested in evaluating the product objectively and not adding or subtracting importance from things it got right or wrong.

And thats why when you said that "oh they cant even get portraits right" Im like "brother you can say you dont like what you see in total without using the portraits as like the single point of criticism that caused all the issues".

Edited June 6, 2023 by ArulcoFan

[Lunokhod]

This. Think about this. U already got japaness cowboy, afro ninja next. And stop telling me about 80's action movies. I dont care, 80's, 90's, 00's... character must look cool. This is what important.

[Alras]

Too cartoonish for me. Also i hope it has the glorious gore we has in JA2. Is like developers are obsessed  on give more toon feel and remove the little details that made grate the game. Crows over corpses, heads blowing up, the great animation of been perforated with long burst at short range. Shotgun flying people away. The animations and trail of blood of wounded people…. There is so much i’m afraid we have already lost here. The first minutes of video gameplay i was thinking on another xcom style. Thankfully not all, but can’t compare the red soldier taking the radio to call reinforcements to the area when spotted, with the camera focus and the enemies taking cover like XCOM 2. Is a bit annoying to see all tries to fall in what is already in the market and use the name and some stuff to make it look like JA game. Said that, i’ll purchase it(in fact i’ve already pre-purchased it) and time will see. I only hope bobby rae’s shop is still a thing.

 

i give 4.5/5 just to keep my hope up.

just make a JA2 with modern tech!!!!!

[Lunokhod]

6 minutes ago, Alras said:

just make a JA2 with modern tech!!!!!

Finally someone with brains here. Instead of "we doing game about 80's action heros". Who the f*ck cares about 80's action heros? THEY SUCKS!!! Just adapt title and old mercs to 2023... Jesus Christ!!!

[Alras]

Difference between JA1 and 2 was improvement over the previous. Graphics and more deep and realistic gameplay. It is not needed to modernize the aim system, path system and all that. Even the ui developers said they wanted to keep the feel but doing their way. Result, flat ui design with basic colors. Too easy guys! All modern day games have the same ui style. Maybe JA2 was so deep in many ways that we’re trying to replicate something with not enough knowledge or ideas to do so. I’m not saying they are not capable of create great games, but the fact is that all previous tries were so basic and barely scratched the surface of JA2. 
in any case i’m glad to see some stuff that do match the spirit.

aiming

cats

merc creation

”tons of guns”( i’ve heard that but not sure)

better than nothing, but i already don't like the cartoon style and the masked enemies. Put normal people to fight. In African conflicts i’ve never seen a ritual mask in combat. They should be the first to die, right? This takes you out from the realism. And even with the jokes, glorious speeches of characters in JA2 looks like they try to keep that, but the dialogue portraits when talking with the locals that all seems to be disguised for some performance. There are normal people there too you know? 
 

i don’t know, we could be talking about the past forever, but it looks like old stuff don’t sell.

[Raeven]

From what I've seen so far, I'm thinking 4/5. Might end up being higher. Seriously doubt that it will go as low as a 3.

I think some of y'all have way too specific of an idea of what the game should be, and are missing a lot of the positive changes that have occurred in the overall gameplay with this iteration. Hyperfocusing on character portraits or individual mechanics such as interrupts vs overwatch... these are not the things that make or break a game. As a cohesive whole, JA3 has a ton of elements and mechanics that have never been seen in the series before that will make for a vastly different experience overall. I'm talking primarily about mechanics outside of combat. Whether that's good or bad remains to be seen, but I find it interesting how heavily people focus on these very small iterative changes to combat mechanics or art style rather than the huge sweeping changes to everything else. It really is a whole new type of game compared to what has come before. But then again, so was JA2 compared to JA1.

As for the art style... all I'm gonna say is that every time anyone refers to JA2 in here as some kind of gritty, hyper-realistic tactical military simulation... I kinda start snorting with laughter. I think y'all really missed the joke back then, and still are. JA3 is tonally not really much of a departure from what came before. I'd go so far as to say it's way more 'realistic' than JA1 was in terms of tone. JA2 is about as much of a tactical mil-sim as GTA is a racing simulator. Like it or not, it's always been that way.

[Alras]

We all can have different views, of corse. I personally have all JA games liked or not. Besides the portraits thing, which in my case doesn’t borders me at all, those small details are what engaged me the most back then. Sure this will be a good game based on what i’ve seen, but none off the others achieved that for me. Maybe this will do, i hope so, but as soon as it left the previous path, i would not call it jagged alliance. Again , i hope this time it changes. Personally i don’t liked JA for the story, was for those details that i remember enjoying hours and hours. Lets keep the faith!

[Alras]

1 hour ago, Raeven said:

JA2 is about as much of a tactical mil-sim as GTA is a racing simulator. Like it or not, it's always been that way.

I’m afraid i do not agree. It can’t be called mil-sim, ( i don’t know if someone has tagged the game like that) but back then there was no other game with that satisfying deep tactic shooting, ammo customization and so on. 
 

anyways it is normal people to fantasize with what they like the most right? No need to snort when laugh 😉

[Raeven]

4 minutes ago, Alras said:

I’m afraid i do not agree. It can’t be called mil-sim, ( i don’t know if someone has tagged the game like that) but back then there was no other game with that satisfying deep tactic shooting, ammo customization and so on. 
 

anyways it is normal people to fantasize with what they like the most right? No need to snort when laugh 😉

Fair enough.

1.13 is that fantasy made real by those who shared it, and available. 

[LoboNocturno]

13 hours ago, ShadowMagic said:

Just can't express myself to often. They really NEED to up the art work.for this game to be taken any serious.

Ice: Looks like a hybrid from Bruno Mars and the Fresh Prince of Bell Air.
Magic: Don't even start about him. The biggest failed portrait I have seen in any game so far.
Igor: a mime or accordion player. Complete joke.
Livewire = Mia Kalifa. Enough said. Guarantees enough 'explosions' i bet 😄 
Raven = A housewife from the 50's.
Meltdown = an office clerk.
Grunty = a house DJ from the 90's that now works in a snackbar.
Wolf: a former p*rn star, stuck in his second youth. Probably drives an old Saab with soft top.
Fidel: A Scottish drunk highlander (Yo Haerimont, wake up this dude is Arabian!)

Hopefully modders will be able to do what Haerimont is uncapable of.

I do agree they could do a lot better in the art work and also many characters looking off but Wolf looks imo battlefield ready and 1 of the few good looking models to be honest. Fidel looks good too but they could remove his jacket, by the way he is Cuban but guess has a Arab background cause of his surname and hairish look. I think they made Fidel look a bit stupid, i mean his voice acting is also a bit retarded, all what he can say is kill kill kill. I liked how Fidel talked in JA RAGE, was also throwing in some Spanish words at times.

 

 

[LoboNocturno]

9 hours ago, Lunokhod said:

This. Think about this. U already got japaness cowboy, afro ninja next. And stop telling me about 80's action movies. I dont care, 80's, 90's, 00's... character must look cool. This is what important.

Magic as a ninja ? Oh no!

See this ; Magic Van Damme 😅

 

 

[ShadowMagic]

17 hours ago, Lunokhod said:

This. Think about this. U already got japaness cowboy, afro ninja next. And stop telling me about 80's action movies. I dont care, 80's, 90's, 00's... character must look cool. This is what important.

No, just no. 
Magic is the type of ex specops / deltaforce guy that got a dishonorable discharge due to crime convictions. Then joined some sort of Wagner group and dissapeared from the public radar. Active on the dark web and very reluctant in taking on job offers unless you know the deal and he has heared about you.

Not some anime fantasy ninja that looks like Shredder from the Turtles. C'moooon.

Edited June 7, 2023 by ShadowMagic

[Lunokhod]

8 minutes ago, ShadowMagic said:

Not some anime fantasy ninja that looks like Shredder from the Turtles. C'moooon.

I just want him in cool style - soldier/ninja. Too many weirdos already in the game.

[ShadowMagic]

9 minutes ago, Lunokhod said:

I just want him in cool style - soldier/ninja. Too many weirdos already in the game.

Magic simply doesn't have the 'build' for him being some sort of light-weight Asian Ninja like Blood. Some Martial Arts skills would be fine and completely logical assuming he has a background in specialized warfare of course. In all previous games Magic was a pretty big build guy you know and not the most agile player. Not even close to Shadow who would be more likely to wear a gimp/ninja suit as you have shown 😉 

[Povok]

If you want to keep Magic with a hat, this is something more like him:

Aware, focused, in control, lethal.

[Claudius33]

The difference between ShadowMagic and MagicShadow 😁, sorry couldn't resist.

Is there a glimpse of hope that MagicShadow could be a bit less negative regarding the game? Come on, it's Jagged Alliance, a game in between Top Gun and Hot Shots, in the spirit of movies like Expendables or series like Strike Back, not Zero Dark Thirty.

Instead of widespreading repeatedly your criticisms all over the forum, why not posting for once what you appreciate?

Coming back to the original post, my hype rating is close to 9

6 because I'm pretty sure I will have fun, it retains JA2 mechanisms, free usage of AP, 3D shaped mercs (with weirdos, but that's the spirit), strategic layer, humor, in depth TBS combat, stances, differentiated ammos, all of it served by highly enhanced graphics ...

+1 It's not just a copycat, it adds intel, stealth killings, more RPG interactions, perks. Can't forge a real opinion about the novelties without playing the game though.

+1 writing : keep in mind that Shaun Lyng is a master writer. Ian Currie has taken the challenge. I'm confident the writing will at least be good.

+1 Modding support

I just hope that the squad inventory won't be accessible during combat.

As for the portraits, I really don't care, it's an artistic choice. I like some, some less. So what? Real mercenaries look like ordinary people not like movie stars. Do you think that Mona Lisa should have worn a hood to look more intriguing?

Google that 'getty images mercenaries' select news photos : here is your housewife, let alone the guy near the car who looks like a comic books character.

Edited June 7, 2023 by Claudius33
syntax

[Alras]

 

30 minutes ago, Claudius33 said:

 

This photo and the African scene of the game reminds me Rhodesian army :). Love that
 

30 minutes ago, Claudius33 said:

 

+1 It's not just a copycat.

 

I think i woul’d love to se a JA2 remake made with modern game engines and all the shader posibilities we have now, even in 2D. But i think maybe will loose his soul:) … but i would try for sure.

[Claudius33]

@Alras If I remember correctly, they said that if a remake of JA2 using the JA3 engine was made, it would be published

[LoboNocturno]

Back to the topic and question, its impossible to rate a game without playing it but from the 25+ hours (I have watched 2 streamers complete 12 hours gameplay + almost all other videos on YouTube) beta gameplay, lots of stuff needs to be corrected, if they can do it in the final version, add more death animations (also fix the explosion animation), increase enemies sight of view more further, balance the game more (am not even talking about the mercs design or skin, if they could fix it too and add the lively portraits, i would rate it very possibly a good 5/5, 10/10) then am sure it can be really good to great game which i could score 4/5 or 7 outta 10. 

 

But if they leave it almost like the beta version then i would possibly rate it 2.5/5 or 5/10 at best and thats mostly for the graphic design of the environment.

[Claypl]

I'm hyped but vigilant, 4/5.

A lot of effort has been put into world building, graphic, style (whether you like it or not), music etc

It would be foolish of THQ to invest so much into this if they would not see light on the end of this endless remake tunnel.

If they can sort out some of the obvious bugs we have seen in playthroughs and improve AI its shaping up to be great adventure, thats all what I'm hoping for.

[Hendrix]

Hmmm...

From the 12'ish hours of gameplay I have seen, I would rate this game in 2 different ways.

From the viewpoint that this is a tactical turnbased game, I would say 7/10, could be a 8/10 with expanded features.

From the viewpoint that this is a Jagged Alliance game 5/10. The style is simply too much "happy-go-lucky" and I didn't even count the fact they turned Grizzly into Hurk.