DevDiary 4 - Character Progression

Wohoo! Some spicy details!

Generally I like the setup of having a classless system and I think the Perk System (which reminds a lot of fallout) is a great compromise.

Another change I like is the removal of stat losses. For me this was an instand-reload/restart. Yes, even with ironman (which in JA is not true ironman, just no saving during combat), this to me always felt same as if the character died and I would just restart. So removing it, and maybe adding a serious wound, or debuff or something is much cooler.

The one thing I am most sceptical about is the unique Talent point. In general I don't think it's a bad idea. And "overly fantastic or unrealistic effects here" sounds it should be ok. But this is then in stark contrast to Fidels ability. Of course that depends on multiple other factors (like availability of grenades), but if grenades work like they did in the old trailer (as in, they always hit, do tons of damage), thats a problem. Throwing grenades in JA1/JA2 was more an act of desparation, or if you were really sure you were going to hit someone. You invest a ton of AP, you might need to be close, you might miss, and the grenade might not go off, you might even hurt yourself. Grenades in the trailer looked like "you select where it lands and it goes boom", and 2 grenades basically will just kill everything, guaranteed. And this might be the opposite of what was intended. This might make Fidel the "Only viable option for grenade throwing". Again, I don't know the cirumstances, and hopefully grenade throwing also has been changed since the trailer.

Question about Character Levels.

In JA2, a character leveling up wasn't a regular experience, with the average merc capable of going a long-time without seeing one.  This article seems to imply that the rate of mercs leveling up is more common, which means a lot more getting into the 7, 8, 9 and 10 range which was reserved for only the most grizzled veterans and legendary names in the past.

Will that be the case in JA3?  Or will the leveling be as distanced and hard-earned as before?

Like @Kordanor said, I am really glad to see that you are sticking to a classless system!

One question, can you "save" a perk point when a merc increases in level and allocate it later once the merc hit a threshold for a perk?

For example: Grizzly has an Agility score of 69 and is level 2 according to the picture in the post. Maybe I would like to increase his mobility and allocate his first perk point among the Agility perks. But once he reaches level 3 he still has a Agility score of 69. Does this force me to choose a perk he already has reached the threshold for or can I wait and save the perk point for later once his Agility has increased?

I agree with everyone else here. The classless system is a great way to do things as, unlike older edition AD&D, you shouldn't be restricted to one main profession and never be able to change:
 

Merc A: "We need you to press that detonator and explode the charges at 18:00 hours!"

Merc B: "I can't, I'm a medic."

 

It would be frustrating and not very realistic.

 

I still stand by my belief that there should be more than one Marksmanship skill. People don't necessarily develop a skill with all weapon types. I mentioned this in another thread and used the merc, Tex as an example. I can see him being an excellent marksman with handguns, especially revolvers. That shouldn't automatically translate to skill with automatic weapons and sniper rifles. I would see the former as someone needing to control recoil with such weapons and the latter being able to control their breathing, know how to lead the shot and then smoothly pull the trigger. For Tex, it would be quick reflexes with a small and light weapon, pointing and shooting accurately, at speed.

I would like to see various and separate Marksmanship skills for the following types:

Handguns (This will be all semi-automatic pistols, select burst-fire pistols (like the Beretta 93R), select automatic pistols (like the Glock 18) and revolvers.)

Automatic Weapons (This will be all sized sub-machine guns, assault rifles, battle rifles, light support weapons, light and heavy machine guns. While many of those have semi-auto fire capability, it is to categorise all automatic capable weapons larger than handguns.)

Single Shot Weapons (This skill covers all shotguns, bolt-action rifles, lever-action rifles, pistol calibre carbines (civilian semi-auto only SMG sized guns) and all dedicated sniper rifles (whether semi-auto or bolt-action.)

 

While there is some crossover that might give the impression that dividing the Marksmanship skill isn't worth it (semi-auto mode on assault rifles and SMGs, automatic shotguns like the USAS-12), the whole point of separation is to create the difference in skill needed between using a handgun, firing a longer weapon in burst or automatic fire, and using a sniper rifle to hit targets at long ranges while using a telescopic sight. In JA2, once everybody had a high enough Marksmanship, all mercs could potentially be equipped with sniper rifles, max out the action points to aim and just keep shooting enemies in the head.

 

Other than that concern, I really like what I am reading so far from Haemimont!

The issue with having different skills for different weapon types is that from a gameplay perspective you would restrict the characters and push them into some directions. You have that in some RPGs where you can use a sword or a blunt weapon, always use sword, and then will never be able to use a blunt weapon properly even if you find the best one, just because the transition is not worth it.

The only way I could imagine that is that on top of marksmanship you can have 10 "expert levels" for the weapon types. But that would make it way more complicated. I think with the different traits and so on that should work well already and give much more flexibility, so that, like in the previous games, mercs can start out with pistols, switch over to Uzis, then rifles and finally snipers and assault rifles.

1 hour ago, Luthghasgo said:

Question about Character Levels.

In JA2, a character leveling up wasn't a regular experience, with the average merc capable of going a long-time without seeing one.  This article seems to imply that the rate of mercs leveling up is more common, which means a lot more getting into the 7, 8, 9 and 10 range which was reserved for only the most grizzled veterans and legendary names in the past.

Will that be the case in JA3?  Or will the leveling be as distanced and hard-earned as before?

Hrm, I think I pushed most of my mercs quite far in all of the games. Maybe not to 8 or 9, but my Veteran Super Soldiers were guys like Razor and Haywire. And in JA DG I also played enough to make everyone very elite.

The last level is still 10 so it will definitely not be inflationary. But ofc you got a point. There should be a decent curve. But otherwise You would also never hire a guy like Magic, Shadow or Skully because at the point where you could hire them, your guys like Biff would already have out-veteraned them ^^

2 hours ago, Kordanor said:

The one thing I am most sceptical about is the unique Talent point.

I think that is a great idea, because of the interest to play with different mercs, because everyone is unique.

Does the I.M.P. character also has a talent point?

 

I think the perk system is more problematic:

1. Is reskilling possible? Has a merc with level 7 already bad percs, so you dont want to play him? Do you want to wait with the perks until Fidel reaches 80 health because, you can add a silver perk?

2. With rpg style specialisation there is always a wish to choose the perfect skillset, like every melee character needs hit and run and frog leaping.

When particular mercs are significant better in certain playstyles, the more the fun in choosing mercs for there personality is unattractive.

In Xcom2 i always had certain builds. There will be the common guides, which builds are the best and so on.

Very true. Having "gimped" pre-skilled characters has been the bane of many RPGs. Wasteland 2 is the most recent I can think of. You really wanted to find the characters as early as possible so that they aren't gimped yet.

Being able to respec skills would be great. I'm one of those people that will hold onto skill points for an eternity if there is not way to reset them in fear of choosing badly. haha

30 minutes ago, Kordanor said:

The issue with having different skills for different weapon types is that from a gameplay perspective you would restrict the characters and push them into some directions. You have that in some RPGs where you can use a sword or a blunt weapon, always use sword, and then will never be able to use a blunt weapon properly even if you find the best one, just because the transition is not worth it.

I can see your point with that. I know that situation has come up in fantasy RPGs, although personally, I will either start training in that field so I can start using that weapon, or accept that I won't use that weapon type at all and just stick to what my character(s) are capable of using.

It is a tricky thing to tailor but realistically, even though a soldier would hopefully be trained for more than one weapon type, for them to be adept with every type just because they became skilled in using only one type doesn't make sense. You could just say that a gun is a gun but I am trying to include a situation where handguns can stay relevant, because a merc could be highly skilled in using them, without them being forgotten about as soon as bigger weapons become available. The same thing can be said about sniper rifles dominating the late game because, in JA2, at least, it was better to use single shot fire, max out your action point usage to aim and then go for the headshot. It was too easy to get that headshot and given the amount of body armour and damage absorption that each enemy had, it made sense to go for the head. To do that, you needed aimed fire and shot for shot, sniper rifles had the best damage. Full-auto fire, in my experience with the game, was never useful unless you wanted to lightly wound several close together enemies at once, or if close enough to one enemy, kill them outright in a hail of gunfire.

Coming up with separate skills for Marksmanship wouldn't just be the single suggestion. It would have to work in concert with smaller, lighter weapons using less action points to aim and longer, heavier weapons using more. After the first shot has been fired that turn, if the gun has a lighter calibre, further single shots that turn don't require as many action points as the merc is already sighted in on the target and the recoil isn't so much that they are bouncing around with the gun. Automatic fire accuracy will depend on their skill with automatic weapons and managing recoil, with negative modifiers affecting more powerful calibres. The gun's rate of fire would dictate how many bullets are fired per pull of the trigger but won't affect recoil any further (unless the desire is there to program into the game that longer bursts of fire, that turn, require more recoil control).

Handguns can stay useful in close quarters and be switched to, in case of a jam or need to reload the primary weapon, as it uses less action points. This again avoids another situation in JA2 where there was no need to use handguns again, for any situation, once SMGs and assault rifles turned up. If you wanted to reload and there was an enemy you were still in the middle of dealing with, it didn't matter about switching to a pistol. You just reloaded your rifle. The mercs that have good Marksmanship skills with handguns would have greater bonuses and use them more often. Yes, you could say, "Why not just have one Marksmanship skill and choose which weapon you desire?" but having individual Marksmanship skills keeps the mercs distinct with gunslingers like Tex standing out from a merc such as Scope.

The final part of all of this would be to not allow body part aiming at all, unless within a certain close distance to an enemy or, when aiming at long range, your merc has a high power telescopic sight, is skilled enough as a sniper and the enemy is not sprinting, making it hard to pick the head.

Headshots shouldn't be an easy thing to do, and keep doing. As I said, it is a tricky thing to tailor and does require further programming. It complicates things more but to keep the system like in JA2 just means that one weapon type will eventually dominate and certain others will be pointless in the later stages of the game.

Exciting update, really like how this is shaping up. Agreed that giving each merc their own signature thing is a great way to make them more distinctive, which is pretty core to the JA experience.

What does a mishap mean with thrown explosives? Is this similar to accuracy, or more variable outcomes like going boom in merc's face or being dropped at their feet? In the screenshot with Fidel, it says "Mishap Chance: None". Does he just throw a perfectly accurate grenade every time? That would feel kind of off for the balance of that skill, and the general JA feel, where nothing should always be 100% guaranteed.

Damage of a grenade also being affected by explosive skill feels a bit weird, unless the merc had some hand in crafting the device.

Hard to tell what is really waiting us from this Dev Diary #4 but lets wait for the best, lets see how all the special perks will work together with the traits. I dont mind mercs having special perks but to have only 1 merc doing a unique ability ? IDK, it could lead to only that specific character would be chosen most of the times. There should be at least 2 or even 3 different mercs that can do the 1 ability quiet well.

 

Also really curious how the levelling will be, and how fast the progress will take ?

That we can choose to our merc also a additional perk sounds good to me.

 

So the throwing ability will be also depending to power 💪🏽, which means a guy like Dimitri with power 71 would not have a good throwing range even if he had a throwing expert as his perk ?

@Kordanor "Throwing grenades in JA1/JA2 was more an act of desparation, or if you were really sure you were going to hit someone. You invest a ton of AP, you might need to be close, you might miss, and the grenade might not go off, you might even hurt yourself."

Guess you forgot about him already ? Dimitri was by far the best thrower of all in the series imo, he did land the grenades and throwing knife with a pinpoint accuracy that made him extremely deadly & useful in JA2, also in end game.

 

BTW i like Fidel`s model (could be better without the jacket due the climate), finally also great to see Grizzly`s full model, it looks very simple and at least battle ready.

So it seems like it will be very similar to XCOM 2 as there the abilities had also names, we will be having even the exact same perk : Hit & Run which was very effective with the Rangers in XCOM 2. Shadow would be a good candidate for this ability imo.

Kill Zone & Serial abilities with your Sharpshooter was also epic.

 

So will be thursday coming a video of new footages and infos ?

9 minutes ago, LoboNocturno said:

So will be thursday coming a video of new footages and infos ?

It's very possible that it will. It is more than likely that the developer's latest diary will also be discussed.

Maybe we will finally know the release date, but I doubt it. There are probably other events in the gaming world since announcing such things 🙂

 

Edited March 28, 2023 by Wigen

@THQN Roger "Zoophobic – loses Morale when attacked by an animal"

 

And finally the eastern egg is cracked, there will be wild animals for sure which we expected.

 

Lets see which ones ?🦛🐊🐍🐅🦁 Am strongly guessing with hippos & nile crocodiles and possibly few species of snakes.

13 hours ago, Luthghasgo said:

Question about Character Levels.

In JA2, a character leveling up wasn't a regular experience, with the average merc capable of going a long-time without seeing one.  This article seems to imply that the rate of mercs leveling up is more common, which means a lot more getting into the 7, 8, 9 and 10 range which was reserved for only the most grizzled veterans and legendary names in the past.

Will that be the case in JA3?  Or will the leveling be as distanced and hard-earned as before?

Thanks for the question! I would say the level-up speed for each individual character is slower than many other games (both tactical and RPGs) - this is both because of legacy reasons and because we have more characters to level up than most other games. Still, level 10 is reachable, although not easily, throughout the campaign with your I.M.P. merc that starts at level 1. Keep in mind that we are still tweaking game balance so this may yet change on the road to release.

13 hours ago, Hendrix said:

Like @Kordanor said, I am really glad to see that you are sticking to a classless system!

One question, can you "save" a perk point when a merc increases in level and allocate it later once the merc hit a threshold for a perk?

For example: Grizzly has an Agility score of 69 and is level 2 according to the picture in the post. Maybe I would like to increase his mobility and allocate his first perk point among the Agility perks. But once he reaches level 3 he still has a Agility score of 69. Does this force me to choose a perk he already has reached the threshold for or can I wait and save the perk point for later once his Agility has increased?

Yeah, you can save the points to spend them later.

11 hours ago, Bloodcat said:

Does the I.M.P. character also has a talent point?

The I.M.P. character currently does not have an unique talent. This was a conscious decision because we wanted to keep a "blank slate" there, keep the A.I.M. merc talents unique and with the high degree of I.M.P. customization even a choice between several other Talents might not fit the way you imagine the character.

Edited March 29, 2023 by Haemimont_Boian
wording

9 hours ago, Marko said:

Exciting update, really like how this is shaping up. Agreed that giving each merc their own signature thing is a great way to make them more distinctive, which is pretty core to the JA experience.

What does a mishap mean with thrown explosives? Is this similar to accuracy, or more variable outcomes like going boom in merc's face or being dropped at their feet? In the screenshot with Fidel, it says "Mishap Chance: None". Does he just throw a perfectly accurate grenade every time? That would feel kind of off for the balance of that skill, and the general JA feel, where nothing should always be 100% guaranteed.

Damage of a grenade also being affected by explosive skill feels a bit weird, unless the merc had some hand in crafting the device.

A bit early to talk about this, however mishap represents the chance to fumble the attack and throw inaccurately, sometimes with disastrous or hilarious consequences. It depends both on merc stats, grenade type and external factors, it might be "none" in a particular situation but this will not always be the case.

10 hours ago, Marko said:

Damage of a grenade also being affected by explosive skill feels a bit weird, unless the merc had some hand in crafting the device.

I can definitely see your point of view here. We went back and forth a couple of times on the issue, but finally decided that it makes sense that a trained explosive expert can recognize the "perfect spot" to plant or throw an explosive so it inflicts maximum carnage.

 

Still, it is a balance issue as well. We want the Explosives stat to be impactful and to make a difference in this situation.

3 hours ago, Haemimont_Boian said:

The I.M.P. character currently does not have an unique talent. This was a conscious decision because we wanted to keep a "blank slate" there, keep the A.I.M. merc talents unique and with the high degree of I.M.P. customization even a choice between several other Talents might not fit the way you imagine the character.

It sounds like we will have this time a wide selection of customization for I.M.P., so there will be many portraits that we can choice from or even able to do our own facial features,hair,skin colour,body type and outfits etc.... ?

Hope our I.M.P. character will be having a visible portrait as well, i was assuming already why there was no portrait in 1 of the trailers where the tactical Grand Chien map shows up were a merc called Time without a picture.

5 minutes ago, LoboNocturno said:

It sounds like we will have this time a wide selection of customization for I.M.P., so there will be many portraits that we can choice from or even able to do our own facial features,hair,skin colour,body type and outfits etc.... ?

Hope our I.M.P. character will be having a visible portrait as well, i was assuming already why there was no portrait in 1 of the trailers where the tactical Grand Chien map shows up were a merc called Time without a picture.

I.M.P. portraits were not ready at this time, but rest assured there will be a (selectable) portrait on release!

I am huge fan of both xcom and ja2. JA2 1.13 has vibes xcom can't achieve.

I see presented talents and traits are more in arcady style of xcom and I am worrying about combat cycle JA3 will have. I am not welcoming "do insane things because your talent allows it" approach in tactical combat game. I am not saying games should be realistic in every aspect. But I believe JA2 is such beloved because it very sucesfully simulate real world approach. Every talent, every skill, every action can be translated to real world.

Hit and run: "being able to run more after melee attack" is very far from a rl. I like being able to specialize your mercenary. So if I'd want a merc to have some advantage in melee combat, which allows him to run away after a melee attack, I'd give him talent such "your are allowed to perform a free melee attack after you've spent at least X AP on a movement". Being able to pull out a knife when running and still hitting a target is trainable in rl. Being able to run farther >BECAUSE< you've stabbed something is not. Outcome is same: you may run, melee and still run away (because you have enough ap to do so).

Frogleaping: What did soldier trained that he's being able to run farther from a wall (cover) than anyone else? Is he bouncing off the wall with such force he gained enough momentum to run faster? I don't get it. But if he'd be able to "leap over cover (fence, barrel, etc.) for 50 % ap" .. that would make sense. That's a skill that reflects training and agility of a human. Outcome would be similair: Merc is able to run farther after being covered. I know it's not same talent, but it's hard to find a sense in a "run farther from a wall".

Double toss: Ok.. throwing two granades is trainble. Fine. Good skill. But! On the screenshot I see 2/10 as the granade "ammo". Means you can have max 10 nades? It means you restock them every map? If you can collect/buy them why to force limit on them? Because it would be op to have 20 in one map? Balance them around weight and inventory space. Do not balance them artifically (aka arcady). There is not enough info to be sure.. but again.. I am afraid I know where it's going.. no inventory management planned (as shown on other inventory screens).

Boutique Explosive: "produces Shaped Charges periodically".. wait what? He just pops out granades? Conjuring them with a dark magic? No materials, no crafting needed? That's very sad really.

Find my feet: Makes sense. Nothing against it. Doctor yells, everyone cheers.. all ok.

--

I am very sure (read afraid) JA2 will see next decade for it's uniqueness.

26 minutes ago, Reloecc said:

Double toss: Ok.. throwing two granades is trainble. Fine. Good skill. But! On the screenshot I see 2/10 as the granade "ammo". Means you can have max 10 nades? It means you restock them every map? If you can collect/buy them why to force limit on them? Because it would be op to have 20 in one map? Balance them around weight and inventory space. Do not balance them artifically (aka arcady). There is not enough info to be sure.. but again.. I am afraid I know where it's going.. no inventory management planned (as shown on other inventory screens).

Thanks for your comments! I can assure you we don't aim to have XCom-like core gameplay in JA3.

In this particular case 2/10 means that 10 grenades fit in one inventory slot. This is an approximation for their weight/bulkyness and does not imply in any way they are replenished "magically" or you can't have more of them. Inventory space depends on your Strength stat and plays a heavy role in the game.

Edited March 29, 2023 by Haemimont_Boian

20 hours ago, Kordanor said:

The issue with having different skills for different weapon types is that from a gameplay perspective you would restrict the characters and push them into some directions. You have that in some RPGs where you can use a sword or a blunt weapon, always use sword, and then will never be able to use a blunt weapon properly even if you find the best one, just because the transition is not worth it.

This issue apply when you have limited character count to play with. But in JA, where having 15 soldiers is not uncommon, you can (or should) find somebody who finds use in freshly dropped blunt weapon.

But I agree with you and I don't think multiple Marksmanship stats are needed. Weapon type specialisation could be tailored into perks.